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  1. #81  
    I agree with Shop. Primaries are PRIVATE POLITICAL PARTY affiliated events. Primaries are events ran and managed by PRIVATE POLITICAL PARTIES that the states assist in administering and have all agreed to and are fully aware of the rules of every PARTY when doing so. When the states decided to knowingly go against the PRIVATE POLITICAL PARTY rules, the PRIVATE POLITICAL PARTY, not the government, has the responsibility to uphold its own rules in order to maintain credibility as the governing body responsible for their own Primaries.

    To their credit, Both parties did this. The GOP deleted half of the delegates in Florida as stated in their PRIVATE POLITICAL PARTY rule book for such a breach of the regulations that all agreed to previous to this situation (and I assume the same in Mich?). The DNC also followed their rules on the books for the same offense by ruling all of the delegates are not legit.

    Elections, on the other hand, are government sponsored events that the political parties participate in. So the government, not the party, is responsible to make sure all votes counts and that all rules are honored during the process.

    That is the key, in Primaries.....it is the rules of the PARTY that are important....not any rules of law....that determine the qualifications of the eligibility of delegates that the PARTY has assigned to any given state.

    These are private political organizations, not government sponsored and controlled organizations. The head of the Florida Dem Party supported to move the Primary date. She stated she was happy to vote for the move. Knowing that she was breaking the rules of their own party and what the consequences were going to be. The Florida State GOP wanted to move the Primary date. happy to vote for the move. Knowing that they were breaking the rules of their own party and what the consequences were going to be.

    This is NOT a situation where the voters are victims of fraud, a potential miscount, neglect, or of one party swindling the other. They are victims of their own state Party leaders knowingly, purposely, and working in a bipartisan approach with premeditation that put the eligibility of their state's Primary voters at risk.

    If you are mad that the GOP lost half of their delegates, you need to hold the leaders of the State GOP responsible because that is the penalty they knew would happen as a result of the actions they supported at the time. If you are mad that the Dems lost all of their delegates then you need to hold the leaders of the state's Dem Party responsible because that is the penalty they knew would happen as a result of the actions they supported at the time.
  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Shop -- I so disagree with you.

    From the POV of the average citizen voter, your distinction between a primary and a "real" election is meaningless....
    Sadly, I must agree with you. The average voter seems so unaware of the process that legitimate distinctions are overlooked or misunderstood or simply ignored.

    The primary process is about a political party selecting its candidate. In the purest sense, the STATE has no concern unless and until that candidate files an application to run for office.

    However, I find it reasonable for the STATE to sponsor the primary polling process, as (1) it has a vested interest in the outcome; and (2) its citizens and the process participants are one and the same.

    While we agree that disallowing votes doesn't help, we must appreciate who is doing the disallowing, and take the matter up with that party. The decision to allow or disallow rests solely with the political party.

    Further, HRC is not precluded from pursuing the office if not selected by the party. The eligibility requirements do not include party affiliation. If in fact she believes the majority of the people want her as President, she would do well to abandon immediately the pursuit of the DNC nomination, and initiate a coalition to campaign independently. In fact, given the Party's willingness to disallow some of its members' votes, taking a principled stand via separation would show great character and leadership.
  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Further, HRC is not precluded from pursuing the office if not selected by the party. The eligibility requirements do not include party affiliation. If in fact she believes the majority of the people want her as President, she would do well to abandon immediately the pursuit of the DNC nomination, and initiate a coalition to campaign independently. In fact, given the Party's willingness to disallow some of its members' votes, taking a principled stand via separation would show great character and leadership.
    Now that would prove interesting. Imagine standing in your voting booth. Turning to the Presidential Candidate page and choosing between:

    • Hillary Clinton
    • Obama
    • Ralph Nader
    • John McCain


    I would love to the odds of any pool pulling for any Liberal candidate on the ballot!
  4.    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    ... If in fact she believes the majority of the people want her as President, she would do well to abandon immediately the pursuit of the DNC nomination, and initiate a coalition to campaign independently. In fact, given the Party's willingness to disallow some of its members' votes, taking a principled stand via separation would show great character and leadership.
    I thought that rules of Treocentral -- as seen in the EULA -- stated that comedy was ABSOLUTELY not allowed
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/01/2008 at 03:46 PM.
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  5. #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I want a national single payer, government funded health care system. (which the DLC opposes). For all her flaws and faults, Hillary is far more likely to fight to begin us onto that path than Obama.
    You've got to be kidding. Hillary has completely embraced the Health Insurance industry, the unnecessary middleman pimp between us and health care. Wow, just wow. To be spot on in many areas I'm surprised where you're at here.
  6. #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    imagine if the states where the voters were being excluded were S Carolina and Mississipi -- imagine if their vote was the difference between Obama being behind or in the lead.

    what would the outcry be then ???

    Voters must NEVER be punished for voting in good faith !!!
    So, what's your position on open primaries?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7.    #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    So, what's your position on open primaries?
    they make me uncomfortable in theory.

    There always seemed the potential for mischief and gamesmanship by hostile partisans. I wonder about voters who might have a vested interest in delivering a damaging outcome.

    Yet for the most part this hasn't seemed to happen.

    Open primaries that allow independents to declare their party affiliation on the day of the primary have from what I've heard actually helped build support for parties amongst independendents.

    The theory being that once you declare your allegiance for say the democrats, and then cast a vote on behalf of Hillary -- you have a personal investment in that candidate, and that may well make you more likely to vote again for her come November.

    Except for Iowa, I deeply distrust caucuses (long ago I worked on behalf a Presidential candidate who did well in Iowa). In general democracy benefits from the widest possible participation. This is of course one of the many reasons why BARYE HATES democracy...
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  8. #88  
    Here's an interesting article about Hillary by Jerry Zeifman:

    http://www.aim.org/aim-column/hillar...in-connecticut
    I have just seen Hillary Clinton and her former Yale law professor both in tears at a campaign rally here in my home state of Connecticut. Her tearful professor said how proud he was that his former student was likely to become our next President. Hillary responded in tears.

    My own reaction was of regret that, when I terminated her employment on the Nixon impeachment staff, I had not reported her unethical practices to the appropriate bar associations.

    Hillary as I knew her in 1974

    At the time of Watergate I had overall supervisory authority over the House Judiciary Committee's Impeachment Inquiry staff that included Hillary Rodham-who was later to become First Lady in the Clinton White House.

    During that period I kept a private diary of the behind the scenes congressional activities. My original tape recordings of the diary and other materials related to the Nixon impeachment provided the basis for my prior book Without Honor and are now available for inspection in the George Washington University Library.

    After President Nixon's resignation a young lawyer, who shared an office with Hillary, confided in me that he was dismayed by her erroneous legal opinions and efforts to deny Nixon representation by counsel-as well as an unwillingness to investigate Nixon. In my diary of August 12, 1974 I noted the following:
    John Labovitz apologized to me for the fact that months ago he and Hillary had lied to me [to conceal rules changes and dilatory tactics.] Labovitz said, "That came from Yale." I said, "You mean Burke Marshall [Senator Ted Kennedy's chief political strategist, with whom Hillary regularly consulted in violation of House rules.] Labovitz said, "Yes." His apology was significant to me, not because it was a revelation but because of his contrition.

    At that time Hillary Rodham was 27 years old. She had obtained a position on our committee staff through the political patronage of her former Yale law school professor Burke Marshall and Senator Ted Kennedy. Eventually, because of a number of her unethical practices I decided that I could not recommend her for any subsequent position of public or private trust.
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  9.    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    You've got to be kidding. Hillary has completely embraced the Health Insurance industry, the unnecessary middleman pimp between us and health care. Wow, just wow. To be spot on in many areas I'm surprised where you're at here.
    after further digesting the probability that Hillaryís chances have likely ended, and much profound thought about Obama's lack of experience, I've begun to reconsider who I will support in the upcoming election.

    This is also in part a result of my reflecting more on the positions advocated by the DLC -- and recognizing that in my heart of hearts -- their positions are also mine.

    My personal quandary has been further intensified by a message I tonight received through one of Senator John McCain's most senior aides.

    It addressed a concern that I have long felt of the utmost importance -- but which has been too much regarded with indifference by other political leaders.

    Its an issue that though I care a great deal about it myself, not only affects me.

    What I have been assured of by the Senatorís senior aide is that should he become President, John McCain would support a constitutional amendment to authorize the election of undocumented foreign born members of minority species to The Office of President of The United States.

    Though I have no intention of ever becoming a candidate for that office myself, Iíve long felt that the artificial barrier to my seeking of that position to be an insufferable personal affront.

    The prospective release of me from this monstrous cage on my ambitions has inspired me to tonight publicly announce my endorsement of Republican Senator John McCain for President.

    BARYE

    Honolulu, Hawaii (where its still April 1st)
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  10.    #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    "...After President Nixon's resignation a young lawyer, who shared an office with Hillary, confided in me that he was dismayed by her erroneous legal opinions and efforts to deny Nixon representation by counsel-as well as an unwillingness to investigate Nixon. In my diary of August 12, 1974 I noted the following:

    John Labovitz apologized to me for the fact that months ago he and Hillary had lied to me [to conceal rules changes and dilatory tactics.] ... I said, "You mean Burke Marshall [Senator Ted Kennedy's chief political strategist, with whom Hillary regularly consulted in violation of House rules.] Labovitz said, "Yes."

    yup this is very serious stuff.

    It sure makes junior's modest misdemeanors of concealing his drunk driving convictions and going AWOL on his plush National Gaurd hide out from Vietnam, seem like cheap beer indeed...

    Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
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  11.    #91  
    The latest polls confirm that Hillary would've been the stronger candidate against McCain:

    Clinton leads Obama, McCain in key matchups
    Reuters

    ...In a general election matchup in Florida, McCain closely trails Clinton 42 percent to 44 percent but McCain leads Obama, who would be the first black president, 46 percent to 37 percent, according to the poll.

    "The difference between Clinton and Obama in Florida is the white vote," said Peter Brown of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

    In Ohio, Clinton has a 48 to 39 percent lead over McCain after months of too-close-to-call results, the poll found. In an Obama-McCain matchup, Obama gets 43 percent against 42 percent for McCain.

    In Pennsylvania, Clinton tops McCain 48 to 40 percent and Obama leads the Arizona senator 43 percent to 39 percent.

    Among Pennsylvania Democrats, Clinton leads 54 to 37 percent with women and ties Obama with men at 46 percent support.

    The primary vote between Clinton and Obama splits sharply along racial lines.

    Clinton leads 59 to 34 percent among white Pennsylvania likely primary voters while Obama leads 73 to 11 percent among black Democrats, the poll found.

    Roughly 44 percent of people in all three states said the economy was the most important issue in their vote, while about a quarter of respondents said the war in Iraq is most important.

    "The economic concerns of voters make Ohio a tougher challenge for McCain than has traditionally been the case for Republicans, who have never won the White House without carrying Ohio," Brown said. "But Obama's weakness among white men is an indication that he has not yet closed the sale among the lunch bucket brigade."...
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  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    yup this is very serious stuff.

    It sure makes junior's modest misdemeanors of concealing his drunk driving convictions and going AWOL on his plush National Gaurd hide out from Vietnam, seem like cheap beer indeed...

    Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
    I assume you're being sarcastic as usual. Hillary's "misspeaking" about Bosnia is a trivial matter when compared to being fired for repeated ethical problems, including taking and hiding legal files that were contrary to her position.
  13.    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    I assume you're being sarcastic as usual. Hillary's "misspeaking" about Bosnia is a trivial matter when compared to being fired for repeated ethical problems, including taking and hiding legal files that were contrary to her position.
    To summarize your cite: she talked to political allies.

    If you think EITHER side in the impeachment investigation of Nixon were not playing politics, you know practically nothing of that history.

    (you REALLY need to learn about Watergate, Nixon, and his Impeachment. Among the outrages only recently revealed, was that Nixon and the Repugs worked actively through Senator Howard Baker and his chief aide Fred Thompson, to both leak secret info back to Nixon, and to try and subvert the process.)

    You've dismissed as sarcasm my allusion to juniors's sordid youthful indiscretions -- as though what he did to chickenhawk out of serving in a war he supported (and AWOLing from THAT) is minor compared to Hillary's partisan political gossip.

    What her service on Impeachment really shows is how very highly regarded she was back then. To have gotten that job practically fresh from Yale Law School, was in itself a major accomplishment.


    "...Publicly, Baker and Thompson presented themselves as dedicated to uncovering the truth. But Baker had secret meetings and conversations with Nixon and his top aides, while Thompson worked cooperatively with the White House and accepted coaching from Nixon's lawyer, J. Fred Buzhardt, the tapes and transcripts show.

    "We've got a pretty good rapport with Fred Thompson," Buzhardt told Nixon in an Oval Office meeting on June 6, 1973. The meeting included a discussion of former White House counsel John Dean's upcoming testimony before the committee.

    Dean, the committee's star witness, had agreed to tell what he knew about the break-in and cover-up if he was granted immunity against anything incriminating he might say.

    Nixon expressed concern that Thompson was not "very smart."

    "Not extremely so," Buzhardt agreed.

    "But he's friendly," Nixon said.

    "But he's friendly," Buzhardt agreed. "We are hoping, though, to work with Thompson and prepare him, if Dean does appear next week, to do a very thorough cross-examination."

    Five days later, Buzhardt reported to Nixon that he had primed Thompson for the Dean cross-examination.

    "I found Thompson most cooperative, feeling more Republican every day," Buzhardt said. "Uh, perfectly prepared to assist in really doing a cross-examination."

    Later in the same conversation, Buzhardt said Thompson was "willing to go, you know, pretty much the distance now. And he said he realized his responsibility was going to have be as a Republican increasingly."
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/03/2008 at 07:41 AM.
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  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    To summarize your cite: she talked to political allies.
    Um, no. She was fired from her job as a lawyer for ethical breaches. When she was told that there was a precedent for something she recommended against, she took and hid the legal documents showing the precedent. Zeifman thinks she would have been disbarred for her actions.

    I honestly don't know why you believe that your stories about Bush and Thompson are relevant to Hillary or this thread. Perhaps you've forgotten that she's running in a Democratic primary against Obama, or that Thompson dropped out of the race long ago and Bush can't run again.

    Obama won't bring this issue up, and the Republicans don't want to hurt Hillary now. But in the extremely unlikely scenario where she becomes the Democratic nominee, this would certainly become central news, probably following some privately-funded TV ads. The media, with strong encouragement from the Republicans, would portray this as the starting point in a long pattern of dishonesty. I think she's completely unelectable, whereas Obama has a great chance of beating McCain.
  15.    #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    Um, no. She was fired from her job as a lawyer for ethical breaches. When she was told that there was a precedent for something she recommended against, she took and hid the legal documents showing the precedent. Zeifman thinks she would have been disbarred for her actions.

    I honestly don't know why you believe that your stories about Bush and Thompson are relevant to Hillary or this thread. Perhaps you've forgotten that she's running in a Democratic primary against Obama, or that Thompson dropped out of the race long ago and Bush can't run again.

    Obama won't bring this issue up, and the Republicans don't want to hurt Hillary now. But in the extremely unlikely scenario where she becomes the Democratic nominee, this would certainly become central news, probably following some privately-funded TV ads. The media, with strong encouragement from the Republicans, would portray this as the starting point in a long pattern of dishonesty. I think she's completely unelectable, whereas Obama has a great chance of beating McCain.
    Sam -- I read your full cite.

    No where does it state that she was fired.

    In your cite a former colleague describes her as acting in a partisan manner during the impeachment process. She's described as directly acting on behalf of her political ally Ted Kennedy. (the writer calls himself her supervisor -- but its clear from his text that she was neither hired by, reporting to, or firable by this bitter former colleague).

    NOTHING that he itemized is the least out of the ordinary amongst the staff and politicians in the byzantine world of Capitol Hill.

    I profoundly wish this were the only flaw in her biography.

    It was literally true when I wrote last week that I had just watched the first 30 seconds of the CBS report, when I paused it, and posted what I did.

    I'm glad you either know nothing about this CBS story, or just don't comprehend the damage the Fairy Tale has caused her. Thankfully Hobbes apparently is alone in seeing the substance of that story. And he has been up until now too merciful to torture me with its detailed repetition here.

    It was that story alone that caused me with great sadness to pronounce her toast.

    Maybe you're right and BARYE's wrong -- that the Fairy Tale is trivial, that maybe she can somehow recover and be the Democratic nominee, and then the next President of the United States.
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  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Sam -- I read your full cite.

    No where does it state that she was fired.
    I put it in bold:
    "My own reaction was of regret that, when I terminated her employment on the Nixon impeachment staff, I had not reported her unethical practices to the appropriate bar associations."

    In your cite a former colleague describes her as acting in a partisan manner during the impeachment process. She's described as directly acting on behalf of her political ally Ted Kennedy. (the writer calls himself her supervisor -- but its clear from his text that she was neither hired by, reporting to, or firable by this bitter former colleague).
    He says that he was her supervisor, that someone else had hired her, and that he fired her. If he's lying, I didn't see evidence for it in his article or in your post.

    I'm glad you either know nothing about this CBS story, or just don't comprehend the damage the Fairy Tale has caused her.
    I saw it on YouTube long before it aired on CBS. And I understand the damage it did to her. Read more carefully what I wrote.

    Maybe you're right and BARYE's wrong -- that the Fairy Tale is trivial, that maybe she can somehow recover and be the Democratic nominee, and then the next President of the United States.
    It's only trivial relative to being fired as a lawyer for ethical misconduct.
  17.    #97  
    "...when I terminated her employment..."

    honestly I skimmed right past that phrase several times --

    Its not at all clear to me what the meaning of "terminated" is in this context -- was she, as you want to believe, fired for cause -- or simply not reupped for the next phase of the impeachment proceeding. Was she kept as a staffer on some other committee, but just not on this guy's staff ??

    As you yourself quoted -- she was not there simply as an independent staff person. By friendship and loyalty she was politically connected to what was then one of the most important and powerful political factions on Capitol Hill. I'd be very very surprised if she'd be fired for any of the allegations that this guy is making.

    But I have no independent knowlege of any of this other than this embittered guy's story. And since its never been worthy of any serious news coverage, I also don't think of it as worthy of my interest either. This is a non-story.
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/04/2008 at 03:58 AM.
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  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    This is a non-story.
    The point is, this would only likely be a story if she were to become the nominee, and thus, would make her less electable than Obama - exactly contrary to her current argument for superdelegates to vote for her.

    No one wants to make it a story now - not Obama, not the Republicans, and not any journalists who fear that taking the word of one man would risk them becoming the next Dan Rather.
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    The latest polls confirm that Hillary would've been the stronger candidate against McCain: .
    I love polls... I loved the one this time last year that said hillary would blow everyone else out the water... or at least snip them off. *snicker*

    I want obama to win against hillary just to see how he attempts an upset... see what "plan" he comes up with. Will be darn interesting to say the least.
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  20.    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    I love polls... I loved the one this time last year that said hillary would blow everyone else out the water... or at least snip them off. *snicker*

    I want obama to win against hillary just to see how he attempts an upset... see what "plan" he comes up with. Will be darn interesting to say the least.
    Theog -- I have in general always hated horse race polls.

    Few things infuriate me more than the media talking about poll results (almost as much as collectors taking and making money for showing my stuff !!!)

    I feel particularly strongly about this before and during the early primaries. Its journalistically reprehensible for the media to talk about someone being weaker or stronger -- and then using a poll to ask why do you suck so much -- why don't you leave the race ???

    I hate polls that are used for the "expectation game" -- polling that creates an artificial finish line over which your result is marked as a victory.

    Polls ought be used for internal management, message and communication analysis, and navigation by the campaigns themselves.

    The media should use them EXCLUSIVELY for internal diagnosis and interpretation.

    Any other use by media ought be regarded as journalistic malpractice.

    I am less bothered by polls that evaluate how each of 2 candidates would perform against a third in the other party-- or that attempt to evaluate how a particular candidate would do in a general election amongst particular ethnic groups, or in certain key states.

    (this is my honest opinion -- though I know that BARYE's many enemies will charge he feels that way because its suits his preferred candidate )
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/06/2008 at 01:15 PM.
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