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  1.    #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Did Bill Clinton serve is the US Senate 8 years? How about 1 year? From the other side of the aisle, was Reagan ever a US Senator?



    I think being a US Senator is a "nice to have on your resume" at best. There is little to no proof that the credential will deliver a better President to serve us. In fact, one could argue that well entrenched senators the likes of Ted Kennedy and...yes, John McCain...are least desirable candidates as their network of cronies (PACs and lobbyist) assuredly far surpass that of a "newbie" US Senator - read: the longer they serve the more disconnected they get from their constituents and more indebted they get to their PAC/lobbyist cronies.

    you're right -- as a single resume check mark, 8-10 years as a Senator is not a qualifying event. Nor is being a Governor.

    (...but being an international fugitive and former CEO of a great European Empire...but I digress...)

    For me it’s a totality of life experience. Of Education. Of Curiousity and struggle. Of challenge failure and success.

    Of brilliance and empathy.

    Bill Clinton exemplifies all of that for me.

    Raygun and junior illustrate exactly who shouldn't become President. They were men of limited educations, limited experiences, limited visions -- from a privileged niche of the society.

    Their gifts were entirely in their capacity to be seen as endearing and as "friends" by people with whom they shared no commonality, and whom they truly cared nothing.

    Hillary has had a FAR more varied, challenging, and interesting life than Obama has yet to have.

    He had a middle class life that took him from Hawaii to Harvard and ultimately to Chicago -- which is where arguably he had his only contact with poverty, and first experienced things that were of a challenging nature.

    Bill Clinton is a fiend of study and absorption. Long before he was Governor he studied and reflected on history, foreign affairs, and america's part in the planet.

    He reflected on our war on Vietnam, and on whether he ought to participate in it despite his profound opposition to it.

    He came from a racially segregated bifurcated culturally retarded part of the country, from deep personal poverty, and went off to Georgetown, Yale, and Oxford because of his brilliance.

    He then returned to Arkansas to challenge and change that culturally retarded place from within.

    His reputation in the Black community was very hard earned -- and based on long experience that entirely controverted his home state's shameful history.
    Last edited by BARYE; 03/31/2008 at 12:50 AM. Reason: major typo corrections !!
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  2.    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    I'm not a fan of Hillary, but I think that's a very rude description of her.
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  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I know they are associated, even seen as paragons -- for the DLCs -- but I see that association as more one of convenience and practicality, than of conviction.

    My belief all along has been that Bill, Hillary and Gore were all in their hearts much more progressive than the left could recognize. (The right has had the deeper "insight", if you will...)
    I'm not sure what you're saying here? The Clintons started the DLC, the shifting of the Democrat Party towards embracing corporatism and away from the populist planks of the Party.
  4.    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying here? The Clintons started the DLC, the shifting of the Democrat Party towards embracing corporatism and away from the populist planks of the Party.
    I know that what you're ultimately referring to are things like NAFTA (which I opposed, and which was harmful to workers), and welfare reform (which I supported, and which was largely successful.)

    The context within which NAFTA was proposed and passed is hard to seperate from the bill itself.

    I confess upfront that I'm much less conversant on this stuff than I'd like to be -- nevertheless my memories of that time are that Bill was under EXTRAORDINARY attack by both repugnicans and the media (for a whole slew phoney things -- such as, but not specifically: who killed Foster, how did the Rose law firm files find their way to the WH library, "travelgate", don't ask don't tell, Hillary Care, etc etc etc etc.)

    NAFTA was so whole heartedly supported by them repugs that they gave Bill a temporary ceasefire long enough to get a breath and drag the wounded from the battlefield.

    Things were unbelievably bad then -- like nothing junior EVER experienced.
    Last edited by BARYE; 03/31/2008 at 02:04 AM.
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  5. #65  
    Is HRC still in the race in anticipation that loyalty will carry her to the ticket?

    Carvel seems to think its a valid expectation: Exhibit A
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I know that what you're ultimately referring to are things like NAFTA (which I opposed, and which was harmful to workers), and welfare reform (which I supported, and which was largely successful.)

    The context within which NAFTA was proposed and passed is hard to seperate from the bill itself.

    I confess upfront that I'm much less conversant on this stuff than I'd like to be -- nevertheless my memories of that time are that Bill was under EXTRAORDINARY attack by both repugnicans and the media (for a whole slew phoney things -- such as, but not specifically: who killed Foster, how did the Rose law firm files find their way to the WH library, "travelgate", don't ask don't tell, Hillary Care, etc etc etc etc.)

    NAFTA was so whole heartedly supported by them repugs that they gave Bill a temporary ceasefire long enough to get a breath and drag the wounded from the battlefield.

    Things were unbelievably bad then -- like nothing junior EVER experienced.
    I'm referring to the DLC, Democratic Leadership Council. An organization whose goal is to move the Democratic Party away from it's core populist goals and beliefs towards that of corporatism. And the Clintons were knee deep in the DLC long before they were under attack from the Repugs. It's much deeper than NAFTA.

    If half the so called lunch pail Democrats understood the DLC and the Clintons involvement, this race would be over now.
  7.    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Is HRC still in the race in anticipation that loyalty will carry her to the ticket?

    Carvel seems to think its a valid expectation: Exhibit A
    I entirely embrace what Carville wrote about Richardson.

    There have been a whole slew of weak backed democrats who've a history of fair weather friendships and meltiness in times of crisis that have been trying to give Hillary the bum's rush to the door, well before it was appropriate. (remember Richardson's statement was made prior to the Bosnian Fairy Tale).

    I'm reminded of the weeks after the 2000 election when there was similar talk trying to get Gore to concede to junior -- that it was inevitable that he was going to lose, that he should just shut up and go home.

    The Richardson shive in the back was unneccasary and undeserved. His primary motivation is an apparent ambition to be VP.
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  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I entirely embrace what Carville wrote about Richardson.

    There have been a whole slew of weak backed democrats who've a history of fair weather friendships and meltiness in times of crisis that have been trying to give Hillary the bum's rush to the door, well before it was appropriate. (remember Richardson's statement was made prior to the Bosnian Fairy Tale).

    I'm reminded of the weeks after the 2000 election when there was similar talk trying to get Gore to concede to junior -- that it was inevitable that he was going to lose, that he should just shut up and go home.

    The Richardson shive in the back was unneccasary and undeserved. His primary motivation is an apparent ambition to be VP.
    But, wouldn't support for the sake of support be a prime example of the politics as usual Obama speaks against? Besides that, isn't it possible that Obama could be better for the DNC? Assuming so (for the sake of discussion) what ought a friend do when s/he thinks another is the better candidate (for whatever reason)?
  9.    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    But, wouldn't support for the sake of support be a prime example of the politics as usual Obama speaks against? Besides that, isn't it possible that Obama could be better for the DNC? Assuming so (for the sake of discussion) what ought a friend do when s/he thinks another is the better candidate (for whatever reason)?
    in Richardson's case he should have stuck his thumb up his **** and sat there !!

    This wasn't the case of a choice between say Mahatma Gandhi and BARYE-- where you'd be obliged because of his overwhelmingly more persusive personality, superior intellect, and powers of intimidation to of course shout out your love for BARYE.

    These two candidates are essentially in a tie -- and there is little that distiguishes them (except for her life experience).

    His endorsement was unneccasary and premature.
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  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post

    These two candidates are essentially in a tie -- .
    No actually they are not. Obama leads by all measures; Delegates, States, and Popular Vote.
  11.    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    No actually they are not. Obama leads by all measures; Delegates, States, and Popular Vote.
    they are seperated by the tiniest of margins -- especially when you include Michigan and Florida which she won overwhelmingly.

    And these were wins in states that were natively favorable to her, whose elections took place before most of the Obama "momentum" took hold.

    I'd want those votes to count somehow.

    in any case I reiterate what I have earlier said: the Bosnian Fair Tale makes her toast (unfortunately).

    (btw -- I haven't time to read the wikipedia on the DLC and respond -- I will later...)
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  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    they are seperated by the tiniest of margins -- especially when you include Michigan and Florida which she won overwhelmingly.

    And these were wins in states that were natively favorable to her, whose elections took place before most of the Obama "momentum" took hold.

    I'd want those votes to count somehow.
    1. Obama did not campaign in those states - he wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. He played by the rules set forth by the DNC that told his campaign that Fl. and MI would not have their delegates counted.

    2. Each of those states and the voters within them knowingly moved their primaries up and knew FULL WELL that their delegates would NOT be counted. Whether or not the DNC was correct in telling the states their delegates wouldn't count is another matter - it did happen and voters in those states knew full well they would not be counted. Period.

    So Obama follows the rules by the DNC and just because HRC and her husband's strong ties in the party and the fact that they stomping their feet and holding their breath, the rules should be changed?

    I predicted this before - African Americans will vote in droves for the GOP if the DNC counts MI and FL this late in the game. They will have LITERALLY CHANGED THE RULES to cater to the Clintons and nothing can be said or done will change that perception. As a result I will further predict if the DNC changes the rules after the fact to appease the Clintons, the Democratic party as we know it today may well cease to exists. I think it is THAT big of a deal.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    they are seperated by the tiniest of margins -- especially when you include Michigan and Florida which she won overwhelmingly.

    And these were wins in states that were natively favorable to her, whose elections took place before most of the Obama "momentum" took hold.

    I'd want those votes to count somehow.

    in any case I reiterate what I have earlier said: the Bosnian Fair Tale makes her toast (unfortunately).

    (btw -- I haven't time to read the wikipedia on the DLC and respond -- I will later...)
    Florida and Michigan were each told by the Party that if they moved their primary their delegates would not be seated and they did so anyway. Simple, end of story.

    It's more than the Bosnian Fairy Tale, it's the Clintons and the DLC again. People are in need of some fresh leadership.
  14.    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'm referring to the DLC, Democratic Leadership Council. An organization whose goal is to move the Democratic Party away from it's core populist goals and beliefs towards that of corporatism. And the Clintons were knee deep in the DLC long before they were under attack from the Repugs. It's much deeper than NAFTA.

    If half the so called lunch pail Democrats understood the DLC and the Clintons involvement, this race would be over now.
    I've read your cite -- and their views are for the most part pretty divergent from mine.

    Yet they supported Kerry and Edwards. Opposed junior on banning the partial birth abortion procedure, and opposed him on his plan to liberate the distribution of assault rifles.

    I don't want them to be the brain that thinks for the democratic party -- but I want them in the coalition that is the party.

    I exist in a pretty lefty universe -- the people I know are more likely to have voted for Nadir than Gore. Most everyone I know socially hates Hillary and Bill. (I once attended a Friend's of The Earth retreat where the latrines were named for Bill, Hillary, and Al Gore.) I have a close friend who believes that 9/11 was a phoney inside job. In my world I'm a conservative.

    Where I differ most from many on the left is my willingness philosophically to pursue coalitions -- to see the enemy of my enemy as my ally, if only for today.

    Politics is an exchange where compromise is the currency. Its the currency you use to amass sufficent force to push change.

    I want a national single payer, government funded health care system. (which the DLC opposes). For all her flaws and faults, Hillary is far more likely to fight to begin us onto that path than Obama.

    I think thats true if only because she's tried to pursue it before, and has learned how hard the process can be.
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  15.    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    1. Obama did not campaign in those states - he wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. He played by the rules set forth by the DNC that told his campaign that Fl. and MI would not have their delegates counted.

    2. Each of those states and the voters within them knowingly moved their primaries up and knew FULL WELL that their delegates would NOT be counted. Whether or not the DNC was correct in telling the states their delegates wouldn't count is another matter - it did happen and voters in those states knew full well they would not be counted. Period.

    So Obama follows the rules by the DNC and just because HRC and her husband's strong ties in the party and the fact that they stomping their feet and holding their breath, the rules should be changed?

    I predicted this before - African Ameand iicans will vote in droves for the GOP if the DNC counts MI and FL this late in the game. They will have LITERALLY CHANGED THE RULES to cater to the Clintons and nothing can be said or done will change that perception. As a result I will further predict if the DNC changes the rules after the fact to appease the Clintons, the Democratic party as we know it today may well cease to exists. I think it is THAT big of a deal.
    NEITHER campaigned in EITHER state.

    Yet it was she who won overwhelmingly in Florida where they were both on the ballot. (In Michigan she won by a big margin over none of the above. Its actually tough to get people to come out to vote when there's only one name on the ballot.)

    The people of Florida and Michigan were powerless in the fight to move up their primaries.

    The proper response by the DNC should have been to deny creditials to any state democrat who supported moving up the primary date. Punishing the average voter was the dumbest thing I 've ever heard of.

    In any case the voters by voting called the DNC's bluff. Their votes must be counted.
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  16.    #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Florida and Michigan were each told by the Party that if they moved their primary their delegates would not be seated and they did so anyway. Simple, end of story.

    It's more than the Bosnian Fairy Tale, it's the Clintons and the DLC again. People are in need of some fresh leadership.
    in the event that there's any confusion where I am on all this: I am resigned to the improbability of Hillary being the nominee. The Bosnian Fairy Tale was her coup de grace.

    It not only hurt her credibility, reputation, and legitimacy -- it crushed her fund raising. She can no longer compete credibly in buying commercials and campaigning.

    Had it not been for the Fairy Tale I think she'd still have a very strong possibility of getting the nomination. She'd then been a formidable candidate and an exceptionally successful President.

    I will support Barry Obama after Pa. (or whenever she drops out.) I hope his presidency will be as good as hers would have been...
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/01/2008 at 04:10 AM.
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  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    The people of Florida and Michigan were powerless in the fight to move up their primaries.
    Maybe so. Then again, they elected the dopes that made the call.

    The proper response by the DNC should have been to deny creditials to any state democrat who supported moving up the primary date. Punishing the average voter was the dumbest thing I 've ever heard of.
    I'm not sure that I'd disagree. But the DNC did what it did and the voters there knew that their delegates would not count.

    In any case the voters by voting called the DNC's bluff. Their votes must be counted.
    Called their bluff? Um, no. Seems to me each state arrogantly voted to move up their primaries and were told that their delegates would not count if they did move them up. Guess what? They moved em' up anyway - their delegates don't count.

    The voters there should be upset with their state leaders and instead of effectively "accepting the terms of the contract" by using the product...or voting in this case. So instead of sitting at the poker table and attempting to bluff...and then losing....they shouldn't have sat down at the table to begin with if they knew the deck was stacked against them.
  18.    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Maybe so. Then again, they elected the dopes that made the call.



    I'm not sure that I'd disagree. But the DNC did what it did and the voters there knew that their delegates would not count.



    Called their bluff? Um, no. Seems to me each state arrogantly voted to move up their primaries and were told that their delegates would not count if they did move them up. Guess what? They moved em' up anyway - their delegates don't count.

    The voters there should be upset with their state leaders and instead of effectively "accepting the terms of the contract" by using the product...or voting in this case. So instead of sitting at the poker table and attempting to bluff...and then losing....they shouldn't have sat down at the table to begin with if they knew the deck was stacked against them.
    imagine if the states where the voters were being excluded were S Carolina and Mississipi -- imagine if their vote was the difference between Obama being behind or in the lead.

    what would the outcry be then ???

    Voters must NEVER be punished for voting in good faith !!!
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  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    imagine if the states where the voters were being excluded were S Carolina and Mississipi -- imagine if their vote was the difference between Obama being behind or in the lead.

    what would the outcry be then ???

    Voters must NEVER be punished for voting in good faith !!!
    There are voters, and then there are VOTERS. This is a primary, where a non-government entity is polling its constituency (voters) for recommendations as to who to set forth as its candidate for office. That the state, because of its vested interest in the outcome, agrees to adminster the polling, does not make the matter the state's responslbility. Were this an election, the VOTERS should expect to have their vote counted by the State.
  20.    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    There are voters, and then there are VOTERS. This is a primary, where a non-government entity is polling its constituency (voters) for recommendations as to who to set forth as its candidate for office. That the state, because of its vested interest in the outcome, agrees to adminster the polling, does not make the matter the state's responslbility. Were this an election, the VOTERS should expect to have their vote counted by the State.
    Shop -- I so disagree with you.

    From the POV of the average citizen voter, your distinction between a primary and a "real" election is meaningless.

    If the complaint of so many for so long has been that americans don't vote -- disallowing their votes entirely -- doesn't help.

    (would we to have my druthers of course, I'd prefer a system of one vote, one time -- mine !!)
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