View Poll Results: Democract Primary

Voters
53. You may not vote on this poll
  • Barack Obama

    37 69.81%
  • Hillary Clinton

    13 24.53%
  • Another Democrat Candidate (and share below who)

    3 5.66%
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  1. #41  
    There's one choice missing in the Poll.....

    - Choose to vote in the Republican Primary
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Florida's state government is completely GOP run.

    They in effect decided to reshedule the primary unilaterally -- irrespective of the DNC's pleadings.

    Should the DNC have punished that state's citizens for what the GOP did ???

    As if ...
    Is the Michigan board of elections likewise GOP?
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Is the Michigan board of elections likewise GOP?
    No.

    Which is why I specifically spoke of Florida.

    As for the merits of Hillary wanting to have these votes count -- these are both the kind of states where there are older voters, many out of work and low paid voters, a diverse population, and where they held an election with ballots (as opposed to a caucus which tends to have a more elitist participation).

    All of these are elements of the areas where she has already done well (and she did receive record votes in those elections that took place in Michigan and Florida.

    And she has won despite being outspent by sometimes more than 2 to 1 (in places like Ohio, Texas, and Ca.)
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    The only problem is that in the "big" states, he was not far behind in any of them. She only leads by around 250,000 votes... out of almost 26,000,000 cast. In one sense you could say that he is picking up the states needed to win... many swing states. And heck, he "should" have lost NY....

    I could see if he was blew out in CA, OH, and TX... MI and FL are places that obama did not even campaign... he was not even on the ballot in one. lol

    Blue states he will be ok, as long as he sticks to the script. I'm still thinking obama might be able to pull a one or two red states... I would not put it past him... I don't see him conceding many states or taking anything for granted... plus, I think he will have a plan to win.

    My thought is that clinton will run a traditional campaign and do fairly well....

    Either candidate will have their work cut out for them though... when those 527s get going, it is going to get bloody....
    .
    them 527s

    the gop aint good at nuthin 'cept slimin

    Whether its Barrack or Hillary it will be shiite storm.

    When they're through (as I've said before), neither would likely be able to get elected dog catcher.

    But its easier to create a phoney image of someone who's a blank slate -- than of someone who already has a clearly defined one (even if its not as favorable as his is now).

    As for the gop's Red states -- neither are going to get them.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by coppertop View Post
    There's one choice missing in the Poll.....

    - Choose to vote in the Republican Primary
    Way Off topic, but coppertop, your pictures are be-auuuutiful
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    No.

    Which is why I specifically spoke of Florida....
    It seems that the DNC is disenfranchising voters in two key states. Both states made decisions based on their priorities. Why would/should the DNC care about the timing?
  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    oh Hobbes ... let's suppose you had a friend ...

    And the two of you decided to go into business together.

    And that friend -- a modest, kind hearted, handsome (though hairy), and brilliant friend -- he just happened to also be The Emperor.

    The business the two of you decide to go into is the selling high end HD-DVD players, the best ones -- the ones made by Toshiba.

    All is great -- until one day its not. Business goes south.

    Your friend thinks he's lost money because you've swindled him.

    He's unhappy.

    As you stand there if front of the bench awaiting the verdict -- having had a fair trial -- -- would the fact that your friend and business partner, The Emperor, appointed the judge who is to rule on how dastardly and venally you stole, exploited, and maipulated your former friend have any effect on how you evaluate the fairness of the proceedings ??

    just asking ...
    Nice story, but again if even taken at face value with the Supreme Court being totally corrupt to the point of not being able to pass an unbiased ruling, it has no bearing on the reality of the outcome of the situation at all. That point is moot. I do understand that with your loyality to the Dem party and your expressed hatred of the GOP, that this would be nice to continue to believe. Which is why I think you keep on coming back to the myth of how the Supreme court ruling effected the outcome of the election without addressing any of the points of fact that I have presented. But it does appear that your factual sources are more enlightened than those of the:
    • Associated Press
    • The New York Times
    • The Wall Street Journal
    • CNN
    • St. Petersburg Times
    • The Palm Beach Post
    • The Washington Post
    • Newsweek
    • Los Angeles Times
    • Chicago Tribune
    • Orlando Sentinel
    • South Florida Sun-Sentinel,
    • The Baltimore Sun
    • Sarasota Herald-Tribune,

    Because they ALL said:

    EXAMINING THE VOTE: THE OVERVIEW;
    Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did NOT Cast the Deciding Vote

    Source:

    Contrary to what many partisans of former Vice President Al Gore have charged, the United States Supreme Court did not award an election to Mr. Bush that otherwise would have been won by Mr. Gore. A close examination of the ballots found that Mr. Bush would have retained a slender margin over Mr. Gore if the Florida court's order to recount more than 43,000 ballots had not been reversed by the United States Supreme Court.

    Even under the strategy that Mr. Gore pursued at the beginning of the Florida standoff -- filing suit to force hand recounts in four predominantly Democratic counties -- Mr. Bush would have kept his lead, according to the ballot review conducted for a consortium of news organizations.

    But the consortium's study shows that Mr. Bush would have won even if the justices had not stepped in (and had further legal challenges not again changed the trajectory of the battle), answering one of the abiding mysteries of the Florida vote.
    No matter what you would like to believe, the facts that I documented above, and in a post above that, and in a post above that are:

    • That if the vote would have continued with the way that Gore was asking to have it done at that time.....he would have lost no matter what!
      .
    • Even if the Supreme court would not have stopped the recount, Gore would have still lost. Even the NY Times (which historically has never been friendly to Bush) concedes that the Supreme Court in no way handed Bush the election.
      .
    • The recount (again conducted by the 14 different news orgs above) also showed that the ONLY way that Al Gore could have tallied more votes was by using counting methods that were never requested, including "overvotes" spoiled ballots containing more than one vote for an office. So, the only situation that any of the above 14 different news orgs found that Gore would have won is if Gore would have counted ballots where someone voted for BOTH Bush and Gore on the same ballot...which he did not request to be done...but that was found to be 50/50 in the outcomes depending on those conducting the recount, which is no surprise there.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 03/07/2008 at 10:30 PM.
  8.    #48  
    Hillary is starting to get more votes in our own primary!
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Nice story, but again if even taken at face value with the Supreme Court being totally corrupt to the point of not being able to pass an unbiased ruling, it has no bearing on the reality of the outcome of the situation at all...
    Nooooo -- I'm not referring to the Supremes !!

    I'm talking about the entirety of the crap that preceded and proceeded that election in that state that was controlled entirely by the apparatus of junior's brother and his minions.

    The deliberate organized targeting of African American voters by falsely accusing them of being felons -- of "losing" voter registration cards, of having their voting locations mysteriously confused on election day.

    The reporting system, the way that poor districts use of card punching that was peculiarly subject to poor maintenance (chads). Plus a myriad of other stuff that I can't currently recite ...

    The idea that any democratic process can be trusted and the result be uncontroversial when the hands controlling that process have a integral investment in the results that will come from the process is ludicrous.

    Hobbes -- when a party with whom you are in dispute controls the machinery of the system that will arbitrate the truth or falsehood of that dispute -- can you be forgiven if you perhaps distrust that system's fairness, its impartiality ??

    That any result produced by such a system is at its inception inherently corrupt and illegitimate ??

    (please begin your response with simple yes or no to that last question...)
    Last edited by BARYE; 03/08/2008 at 08:29 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Way Off topic, but coppertop, your pictures are be-auuuutiful
    Thanks.
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Nooooo -- I'm not referring to the Supremes !!
    Oh, my mistake, after bringing up that point twice before this analogy, I misunderstood. Good to see we are past that talking point.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    The deliberate organized targeting of African American voters by falsely accusing them of being felons -- of "losing" voter registration cards, of having their voting locations mysteriously confused on election day.

    The reporting system, the way that poor districts use of card punching that was peculiarly subject to poor maintenance (chads). Plus a myriad of other stuff that I can't currently recite ...

    The idea that any democratic process can be trusted and the result be uncontroversial when the hands controlling that process have a integral investment in the results that will come from the process is ludicrous

    Hobbes -- when a party with whom you are in dispute controls the machinery of the system that will arbitrate the truth or falsehood of that dispute -- can you be forgiven if you perhaps distrust that system's fairness, its impartiality ??

    That any result produced by such a system is at its inception inherently corrupt and illegitimate ??
    This does not make any sense at all. Who participates in counting the votes? Were the Dems excluded from the counting process? Are you saying the GOP rigged the machines to only count GOP votes? Does it makes sense to purposely install voting machines with the single purpose to make it hard to count the votes that could just as easily threaten the number of votes counted for the GOP?

    Just because there is a GOP Governor, does not mean that there is not a Dem party actively involved. To assume this seems a little naive. The Dems participated in the counting of the votes. The Dems party have a say in and the ability to raise concerns of the machines when purposed, installed, and used. Have you questioned who in the Dem party was responsible for this and apparently failed right along side their GOP counterparts?

    You seem to have the mind set that there was not a single Dem involved in the process. If your logic was to hold true, then every GOP member should be up in arms with every election where there is a Dem Governor without a GOP elected in the last 40 years because they must have control of the all the voting machines and rigging every election in their favor. Again, how well does your undocumented arguments continue to roll when applied in similar circumstances against the Dems?


    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    I'm talking about the entirety of the crap that preceded and proceeded that election in that state that was controlled entirely by the apparatus of junior's brother and his minions.
    Barye....as I noted several posts back, there is little doubt that the GOP played dirty....but so did the Dems. There are no hands without blood on them during the Florida election. If you were willing to recognize the evil doings on both sides, it would be a balanced discussion instead of only highlighting the GOP acts with totally ignoring the guilt of the Dems attempting to do the very exact same thing you are accusing the GOP of.

    I think Samkim's post is in the Global Warming Thread applies perfectly here.

    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    When your loyalty to a particular group or ideology is fixed, such as with a religion, a sports team, or a political party, you tend to focus on insubstantial matters that give you reassurance. Understanding the issues becomes unimportant. Cheerleading replaces critical thinking.

    Some people think that blindly accepting and preaching the words of their selected thought leaders demonstrates science and wisdom. But that's really no different from what led the Church to banish Galileo 400 years ago. Our thought leaders may have gotten smarter and better informed, but the masses are still dumb sheep.

    How do you know whether you're a critical thinker or a cheerleader? Well, is it important to understand what these scientists said before dismissing their arguments? Or is the fact that they're on an opposing team all you need to know?

    http://discussion.wmexperts.com/show...postcount=1675
    Are you willing to accept that the Dems tried to exclude the votes of those serving in our Armed Forces because they are historically favor the GOP or recognize that the Dems actively and purposely sought to deny Bush votes the opportunity to vote by lying to them that the voting machines were broken and sending hundreds upon hundreds away denying them their right to vote?

    The GOP did and do horrible acts during elections. The Dems do as well. If you are willing to look at both sides in an unbiased way with a view of the acts without regard if it was done by the GOP or Dem party, then this would be an excellent separate thread. But if you are only able to see the offenses by the GOP with a blind eye to the same acts by the Dems, then it is a useless discussion.
  12.    #52  
    I still say that this is going to go to the Super Delegates and no matter the result from their votes there is going to be a split in the Dem party over the outcome will offer unique challenges in the General election.

    Obama Begins to Reclaim Momentum With Wyoming Win

    Barack Obama’s campaign began to reclaim lost momentum Saturday, beating Hillary Clinton by double digits in the Wyoming caucuses on the road to more critical upcoming contests.

    The caucuses only offered 12 total delegates, but both candidates campaigned there and drew rare attention to the state as well as historic turnout.

    With all precincts reporting, Obama had 61 percent to Clinton’s 38 percent.

    ------------

    Clinton spokeswoman Hilary Perry told FOX News that the next big contest for them is Pennsylvania, which votes April 22 and offers 158 delegates. It is the biggest prize remaining on the election calendar, and polls show Clinton ahead in the state.

    Obama still holds a comfortable lead in delegates. After Saturday’s caucuses, the count stood at 1,578 for Obama and 1,468 for Clinton. It takes 2,025 to win.

    SOURCE
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I still say that this is going to go to the Super Delegates and no matter the result from their votes there is going to be a split in the Dem party over the outcome will offer unique challenges in the General election.

    Obama Begins to Reclaim Momentum With Wyoming Win
    I don't think anyone was shocked with that win... nor the win he *should* have in MS.

    PA will not be a shock, either... unless Obama wins or is blown out.

    Of course, he is looking toward a Win in NC that will keep him ahead in the delegates....

    Right now I don't think this goes to the delegates. Clinton is tossing around this "Clinton/Obama" ticket and saying it will be (quote) "almost unstoppable."

    I don't know what planet she lives on, but on Earth it is obvious that both of these candidates need a running mate that has experience. No matter how they try to spin Clinton's "experience."

    Anyway, I believe Clinton drops out before it goes to the delegates.
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  14.    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Anyway, I believe Clinton drops out before it goes to the delegates.
    Bigger miracles have happened, but I would personally be really surprised if this did happen. I cannot see Clinton giving up if there is any chance, no matter how slim, of working the system to win.

    She still has Mich and Florida to fight for. She still has the game of winning super delegate votes no matter if the popular votes, caucus votes, and state delegates are all in Obama's favor.

    I see her playing the game to the bitter end.
  15. #55  
    I think it's clear that her endgame will be to negotiate for a VP slot at the convention in exchange for giving up the fight. And Obama made it clear that he doesn't have to give up anything.
  16.    #56  
    It ain't so I tell ya!......Clinton said it wasn't so herself yesterday. And if she says it, I believe it!
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Florida's state government is completely GOP run.

    They in effect decided to reshedule the primary unilaterally -- irrespective of the DNC's pleadings.

    Should the DNC have punished that state's citizens for what the GOP did ???

    As if ...
    I was listening to 360 on CNN this evening and caught the last half of their story on the Florida Delegate options. I came in right as they were showing the head of the Florida State DNC and she said that she had total knowledge of the proposition to move the primary date, she was involved in the process, she knew the rules at the time, and that she fully approved and still does approve that Florida moved their date. I maybe paraphrasing a little but her quote was pretty close to

    "We are the (third?) largest state with one of the move diverse populations in the nation. Florida deserves the right to have their say in the primary elections when their votes still make a difference during the primary selection. I approve of our move to reschedule the date of the DNC primary."

    So, do you know (with documentation) of how specifically the GOP sabotaged the DNC with moving the date for the Florida primary? If so, I would find that just as interesting with seeing how one party totally set a trap with such public exposure for the other to walk into with such success.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    <snip>
    So, do you know (with documentation) of how specifically the GOP sabotaged the DNC with moving the date for the Florida primary? If so, I would find that just as interesting with seeing how one party totally set a trap with such public exposure for the other to walk into with such success.
    I heard this argument made over the weekend, and as I recall, the actual primary date move was a Democrat proposal. Apparently the proposal (bill?) was tacked onto another bill. The statement was made that while the primary date change was a Democrat proposal, adding to the second bill, which the Democrats "could not vote against" (no Democrat voted against the final bill), was a Republican ploy. So you have a Democrat proposal receiving 100% Democrat support, yet still being a nefarious plot by Republicans.

    Either way, I think this makes the Dems look bad: Either they proffered and supported a bad idea, or "got played by the Republicans".

    In any event we now see politicians scrambling to avoid accountability for their actions.

    What a shock.
  19.    #59  
    That must have been the first half of the story I missed. It seems then that all the GOP did was make the Dems actually vote (putting accountability on record) on their own proposal that they liked to begin with.
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post

    I see her playing the game to the bitter end.
    Enter: Obama's spirutual advisor
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