View Poll Results: Democract Primary

Voters
53. You may not vote on this poll
  • Barack Obama

    37 69.81%
  • Hillary Clinton

    13 24.53%
  • Another Democrat Candidate (and share below who)

    3 5.66%
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Results 21 to 40 of 285
  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Second: Gore won the most votes, and yes he also won Florida.

    Do I wish he'd have fought harder to get a fair count in Florida ?? Absolutely.

    But he was up against a state controled by junior's brother, a state whose voting appartus was controled by junior's state campaign manager: Katherine Heris, and where the the ballots were so screwy that thousands of elderly liberal jews mistakenly cast ballots for Buchanan (something Buchanan has readily acknowledged himself on several occaisons.)
    This is so comical; I'll note Gore in fact did not win Florida & by your own words.

    Considering politics involves a heavy dose of often "unfair" play, Gore simply was incapable of matching (or refused, take your pick). Did he win the vote? I suspect not. That aside, if the vote was indeed favorable towards him, he still lost as in the end he did not acquire Florida.
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  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post
    This is so comical; I'll note Gore in fact did not win Florida & by your own words.

    Considering politics involves a heavy dose of often "unfair" play, Gore simply was incapable of matching (or refused, take your pick). Did he win the vote? I suspect not. That aside, if the vote was indeed favorable towards him, he still lost as in the end he did not acquire Florida.
    The point being made is that he won the popular vote in Florida and thus, won Florida even though he lost in the electorate because of well-publicized bs. However, that point is now quite moot.
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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by gksmithlcw View Post
    The point being made is that he won the popular vote in Florida and thus, won Florida even though he lost in the electorate because of well-publicized bs. However, that point is now quite moot.
    I agree a moot point . . . about winning the popular vote.
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  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    yes he also won Florida.

    Do I wish he'd have fought harder to get a fair count in Florida ?? Absolutely.

    But he was up against a state controled by junior's brother, a state whose voting appartus was controled by junior's state campaign manager: Katherine Heris, and where the the ballots were so screwy that thousands of elderly liberal jews mistakenly cast ballots for Buchanan (something Buchanan has readily acknowledged himself on several occaisons.)
    I cannot believe this still comes up.

    The Florida Ballot Project, a major study and independent recount with all the major media orgs, found that Gore would never have won with how he was requesting the recount to be conducted. The only way he might have won is to dive into the realm of What If scenarios...like counting the overvotes where a voter voted for both Bush and Gore...all of which never happened to influence the outcome.

    EXAMINING THE VOTE: THE OVERVIEW;
    Study of Disputed Florida Ballots Finds Justices Did Not Cast the Deciding Vote




    A comprehensive review of the uncounted Florida ballots from last year's presidential election reveals that George W. Bush would have won even if the United States Supreme Court had allowed the statewide manual recount of the votes that the Florida Supreme Court had ordered to go forward.

    Contrary to what many partisans of former Vice President Al Gore have charged, the United States Supreme Court did not award an election to Mr. Bush that otherwise would have been won by Mr. Gore. A close examination of the ballots found that Mr. Bush would have retained a slender margin over Mr. Gore if the Florida court's order to recount more than 43,000 ballots had not been reversed by the United States Supreme Court.

    Even under the strategy that Mr. Gore pursued at the beginning of the Florida standoff -- filing suit to force hand recounts in four predominantly Democratic counties -- Mr. Bush would have kept his lead, according to the ballot review conducted for a consortium of news organizations.

    -----------------

    The study, conducted over the last 10 months by a consortium of eight news organizations assisted by professional statisticians, examined numerous hypothetical ways of recounting the Florida ballots. Under some methods, Mr. Gore would have emerged the winner; in others, Mr. Bush. But in each one, the margin of victory was smaller than the 537-vote lead that state election officials ultimately awarded Mr. Bush.

    For example, if Florida's 67 counties had carried out the hand recount of disputed ballots ordered by the Florida court on Dec. 8, applying the standards that election officials said they would have used, Mr. Bush would have emerged the victor by 493 votes. Florida officials had begun such a recount the next day, but the effort was halted that afternoon when the United States Supreme Court ruled in a 5-to-4 vote that a statewide recount using varying standards threatened ''irreparable harm'' to Mr. Bush.

    But the consortium's study shows that Mr. Bush would have won even if the justices had not stepped in (and had further legal challenges not again changed the trajectory of the battle), answering one of the abiding mysteries of the Florida vote.


    Source
    The National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago, sponsored by a consortium of major U.S. news organizations, conducted a Florida Ballot Project comprehensive review of all ballots uncounted (by machine) in the Florida 2000 presidential election, both undervotes and overvotes, with the main research aim being to report how different ballot layouts correlate with voter mistakes.

    The media companies involved were:

    • Associated Press
    • The New York Times
    • The Wall Street Journal
    • CNN
    • St. Petersburg Times
    • The Palm Beach Post
    • The Washington Post
    • Tribune Company
    • Los Angeles Times
    • Chicago Tribune
    • Orlando Sentinel
    • The Baltimore Sun


    Methodology
    Although the NORC study was not primarily intended as a determination of which candidate "really won", analysis of the results, given the hand counting of machine-uncountable ballots due to various types of voter error, indicated that they would lead to differing results, reported in the newspapers which funded the recount, such as The Miami Herald or the Washington Post.


    Results
    The media reported their findings during the week after November 12, 2001.

    All of the various county-by-county recounts had been requested by Gore or Bush. Neither candidate had formally requested a total statewide recount.

    The recount also showed that the only way that Al Gore could have tallied more votes was by using counting methods that were never requested, including "overvotes" — spoiled ballots containing more than one vote for an office.



    Source
    And who reviewed and approved the ballot formats? The voters of the counties and the local political parties, that includes the Democratic Party.

    Justification only is as valid as the facts supporting it.














    Now....let's look to this year...We only have a few votes but they do seem to mirror what is happening in some of the primaries, though nationally it looks very tight. But without delegates, the current national opinion will not matter much.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/25/2008 at 02:52 PM.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I cannot believe this still comes up.
    oh Hobbes -- will the world never weary of flailing at poor ol' BARYE ??

    Permit me to again mention what is undisputed:

    1. more Americans wanted Gore to be President than junior -- there’s no dispute that nationally Gore received more votes than junior.

    2. The machinery of "democracy" in Florida was comprehensively controlled by junior's taller and more intelligent brother. His (junior's) campaign manager was in control of the specific management of the apparatus of that state's "democracy". As such any analysis of the vote in Florida is inherently distorted when taken in isolation (i.e. how they proactively kept African americans from voting by preemptively excluding them from their voting precincts, knocking them off the registration rolls by fraudulently labeling them as convicted felons etc. etc.) Though admittedly Florida is practically a latin-american fiefdom, so it does make perfect sense that they practice latin-american "democracy" there.

    3. Buchanan readily acknowledges that thousands of his votes were from liberal elderly Florida Jews who mistakenly voted for him because their poor vison combined with atrocious ballot construction and design.

    4. junior was selected not by the majority of the nation’s voters, a fair vote in Florida, or by an impartial rendering of the law -- but by a Supreme Court steered by partisan allegiance -- shameful “judges” who unprecedentedly constructed a ruling that was self defined as without precedent -- from before and for any other subsequent, case.
    Last edited by BARYE; 02/25/2008 at 05:44 PM.
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Permit me to again mention what is undisputed:


    Permit me to dispute, or rather put into perspective:

    1. more Americans wanted Gore to be President than junior -- there’s no dispute that nationally Gore received more votes than junior.


    Again, a moot point. As it stands at this time what matters is the electoral vote, not the popular vote.

    If the popular vote were so important to Democrats, maybe they should take lessons from the history books seeing as how both the Presidential Elections of 1876 & 1888 display the potential for loss despite the popular vote.

    2. The machinery of "democracy" in Florida was comprehensively controlled by junior's taller and more intelligent brother. His (junior's) campaign manager was in control of the specific management of the apparatus of that state's "democracy". As such any analysis of the vote in Florida is inherently distorted when taken in isolation (i.e. how they proactively kept African americans from voting by preemptively excluding them from their voting precincts, knocking them off the registrations rolls by fraudulently labeling them as convicted felons etc. etc.) Though admittedly Florida is a practically a latin-american fiefdom, so it makes perfect sense that they should practice latin-american "democracy" there.


    Florida’s only problem is that it holds 25 electoral votes not any alleged fraudulent or nefarious actions on part of Jeb or others (not to say it didn't happen, just that isn't Florida's problem per se in this argument).

    How can I be so certain? Simple, a 2001 joint study by Massachusetts Institute of Technology and California Institute of Technology noted that Illinois, New York, South Carolina, Idaho, Wyoming and Georgia had higher rates of spoiled, unmarked or uncounted ballots than did Florida (while confirming concerns in Florida as well—note those concerns being twice as high as previously released by House Democrats.)

    HOWEVER:

    IL & NY were given to Democrats (with 22 & 33 electoral votes respectively)—so there wasn’t any need to cry about them.

    SC, ID, WY & GA collectively garnered only 28 total—hardly worth the time to fight over (numerical electoral votes being just one of the reasons).

    Florida on the other hand, happened to have not only 25 votes, but a potential win for democrats. Considering what some view as its swing state status, that makes it quite worthy to fight over.

    3. Buchanan readily acknowledges that thousands of his votes were from liberal elderly Florida Jews who mistakenly voted for him because their poor vision combined with atrocious ballot construction and design.


    Only liberal, elderly, Jews managed to have bad eyesight AND mistakenly didn’t vote for Gore? What? I’m supposed to believe that such didn’t happen to say conservative, elderly, Protestants with bad eyesight who voted for Gore instead of Bush? I mean, same amount of letters in the name at least.

    4. junior was selected not by the majority of the nation’s voters, a fair vote in Florida, or by an impartial rendering of the law -- but by a Supreme Court steered by partisan allegiance -- shameful “judges” who unprecedentedly constructed a ruling that was self defined as without precedent -- from before and for any other subsequent, case.


    Considering my other points I don’t really see how this makes any difference.
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by DL.Cummings View Post

    HOWEVER:

    IL & NY were given to Democrats (with 22 & 33 electoral votes respectively)—so there wasn’t any need to cry about them.

    SC, ID, WY & GA collectively garnered only 28 total—hardly worth the time to fight over (numerical electoral votes being just one of the reasons).
    Funny thing is that gore could have lost fl and won the election by winning either SC, ID, WY or GA. lol... it was THAT close.

    But I agree with you, no use in crying over flat beer now.

    Dems need to get into those swing states and push hard.
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  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    oh Hobbes -- will the world never weary of flailing at poor ol' BARYE ??
    I cannot speak for the world....yet....but as for me, sparing with you is a favorite pass time I enjoy a great deal!

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Permit me to again mention what is undisputed:
    I am not disputing there were serious issues with Florida, as there were in nearly every other state, but your identical repeated comments sound so talking point-ish, it is almost kind of amusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    1. more Americans wanted Gore to be President than junior -- there’s no dispute that nationally Gore received more votes than junior.
    This is part of our nation's system, it makes no difference if he won 80% more popular votes but had less electoral votes. That person would lose a Presidential election. No matter if it this happened to a Rep candidate and then those loyal to the GOP were still wining about it 8 years later, it is a baseless, lawless, and an unconstitutional point.

    So since this is the second time you brought up this talking point....is your concern truly with the nation's election system? In other words would you have been just as upset if Bush would have been victim to these same circumstances or are you simply upset because it happenned with your guy?

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    2. The machinery of "democracy" in Florida was comprehensively controlled by junior's taller and more intelligent brother. His (junior's) campaign manager was in control of the specific management of the apparatus of that state's "democracy".
    What sourcing do you have for all of these allegations that Jeb fixed the election in his state? Where there charges filed? What investigations were launched and what where their conclusions? .........Or is this simply your personal opinion for personal justification?

    But on a more general note, voting fraud, manipulating of the system via contacts and lawyers, and intimidation, were abundant on BOTH sides. The scary thing about pointing fingers is that the same scrutiny comes back on the side you are loyal to as well with tit-for-tat results that can be hard to accept if one walks a partisan line....for example the Dems tried to exclude the military votes in Florida because they are historically Rep dominated or when the Dems got caught trying to cast votes for voters that were dead in WA state Gov's race or when they slashed the tires of GOP local authorities on election day to hender their travel or when Dem supporters stole GOP local election headquarter computers or when Dem supporters tried to block access to voting boths by telling non Dem voters the machines were falsely broken and turning them away (this last one happened in Florida Gore/Bush election and was estimated to have cost Bush hundreds of votes).





    I would love a thread looking at voting offenses....regardless of party...with an eye of how to address it. But only if it is not an excuse to point partisan fingers and complain about the results not in favor with one's affiliated party.


    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    3. Buchanan readily acknowledges that thousands of his votes were from liberal elderly Florida Jews who mistakenly voted for him because their poor vison combined with atrocious ballot construction and design.
    So if we had converted the majority of the voters away from Judaism and had better optometrists available the week prior to the election Gore would have won?

    Do you know how many voters voted for someone else that meant to vote for Bush? Do you know how many meant to vote for Buchanan and instead voted for Gore? Do you know how many voters voted Buchanan that meant to vote for Bush? I have seen a wide range of numbers thrown out for how many additional votes Gore would have received due to this issue, but nothing on how many Bush would have picked up or how many meant to vote for Buchanan and instead voted for either Bush or Gore. If you do not know this, this is again a moot point as you are in the realm of speculation, false data, and what if's.

    But more importantly.....again.....the Dem party had a chance to preview the ballots and change it. The democrat voters of the county had a chance to view it and change it. Instead of wining about something that cannot be changed, look at those in the local Dem party that allowed this to happen and address it with them. Put the blame where it needs to be if you truly have an honest desire for positive change and results in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    4. junior was selected not by the majority of the nation’s voters, a fair vote in Florida, or by an impartial rendering of the law -- but by a Supreme Court steered by partisan allegiance -- shameful “judges” who unprecedentedly constructed a ruling that was self defined as without precedent -- from before and for any other subsequent, case.
    Again....what documented sourcing do you have to support this beyond opinion pieces. Because in the post you replied to you apparently did not read it because I quoted the NY Times (a traditionally left leaning source) that was reporting on a major study conducted by the Associated Press, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, St. Petersburg Times, The Palm Beach Post, The Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Chicago Tribune, Orlando Sentinel, and the The Baltimore Sun that spent over a half a million dollars to declare just the opposite what you have reiterated here a second time. They found out that....
    Source:

    Contrary to what many partisans of former Vice President Al Gore have charged, the United States Supreme Court did not award an election to Mr. Bush that otherwise would have been won by Mr. Gore. A close examination of the ballots found that Mr. Bush would have retained a slender margin over Mr. Gore if the Florida court's order to recount more than 43,000 ballots had not been reversed by the United States Supreme Court.

    Even under the strategy that Mr. Gore pursued at the beginning of the Florida standoff -- filing suit to force hand recounts in four predominantly Democratic counties -- Mr. Bush would have kept his lead, according to the ballot review conducted for a consortium of news organizations.

    But the consortium's study shows that Mr. Bush would have won even if the justices had not stepped in (and had further legal challenges not again changed the trajectory of the battle), answering one of the abiding mysteries of the Florida vote.

    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .


    But since this thread is really talking about the current Presidential election, I do find this exchange enlightening. Is this the stereotypical mind set of the average Dem going into this election?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 02/26/2008 at 09:13 PM.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    But since this thread is really talking about the current Presidential election, I do find this exchange enlightening. Is this the stereotypical mind set of the average Dem going into this election?

    Methinks this is the stereotypical mindset of many Democrats going into the more recent, typical elections.

    Yes, Bush won--but not by any actions that Democrats are not equally guilty of. As I said previously he simply did a better job of playing politics.

    Where I could be egregiously wrong is that it isn't the mindset of the average democrat as much as it is what the candidate potentials think is the mindset (which represents an even larger problem).
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  10.    #30  
    Okay...only four days to the next big primary Super Tuesday that may decide the outcome for the question of who the next Dem candidate will be. Is Barack Hussein Obama (man there goes any chance I have of maintaining a solid standing with the GOP anytime in my future political carreer ) or will it be Hillary Rodham Clinton that will take Texas and Ohio?

    If HRC looses either or both of these states, just by doing the electoral math, does she still have a reasonable chance?
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Okay...only four days to the next big primary Super Tuesday that may decide the outcome for the question of who the next Dem candidate will be. Is Barack Hussein Obama (man there goes any chance I have of maintaining a solid standing with the GOP anytime in my future political carreer ) or will it be Hillary Rodham Clinton that will take Texas and Ohio?

    If HRC looses either or both of these states, just by doing the electoral math, does she still have a reasonable chance?
    I think she's toast. She needs to win both states by pretty big margins. The super delgates are moving to Obama. He has the big "mo" and I don't think HRC can stop him now.

    BTW - it's noteworthy that you took the time to spell out his middle name. I predict this race will be the "middle" name race whereby John McCain will change his middle name to "Adams" - John Adams McCain running against Barack Hussein Obama or simply put "Adams vs. Hussein". How could any red blooded American vote for someone with a middle name Hussein?
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I think she's toast.
    Ditto.
    No problem should ever be solved twice.

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  13.    #33  
    So....the primaries go on. Neither is backing down. Hillary got a bump (by at least bragging rights if nothing else) from this last Super Tuesday II.

    They are going to take it to every little delegate state. They are starting to turn nasty with each other.

    Now the big question all over every news org, is what about Michigan and Florida Delegates. From what I heard today if they were allowed to count as is, it would give Hillary more delegates than Obama.

    But Mich did not even have Obama on the ballot because it was determined their delegates were void. Even though they were determined void in Florida Obama was on the ballot but as the new comer he never campaigned because again they did not count.

    So, there are now 3 choices:

    1) Let the delegates now be counted as is.
    2) Do a re-vote (which leads to who pays the $18 million to do it all over again).
    3) Leave them invalid and uncounted delegates as originally ruled

    This is a HUGE mess that has all the tickings of a time bomb, IMHO. I see this going to the courts. I can see it now.....In 3 years from now, the Dem rally call will be "Remember Florida!" but they will not be talking about Bush/Gore but rather Clinton/Obama.


    Personally I think this is all bad news for the Dems....they may dominate the press until their convention, but the focus of the press is not going to be a good thing with the building up of bickering, the Dem infighting of invalid delegates, and the political ramifications if it falls to either Clinton or Obama due to the voting of the Super Delegates.
  14. #34  
    ya its probably bad.

    Life's never fair to democrats. Or BARYE...

    She's won more of the states where democrats have won and must win -- and she's won the most votes in total.

    Places like California, Florida, Nevada, Ohio, Michigan.

    His wins have been less impressive if you drill down and understand the make up of the states and the caucus process where he's gotten most (though not all) of his victories.

    I was always dubious of the idea of entirely disallowing state delegates to the voters of Florida and Michican. Couldn't some other penalty have been used ??? The democrats and their party leaders were in any case innocent victims of the GOP.

    For that they shoot the democrats ??

    And I've been accused of being unfair -- phew ...
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Now the big question all over every news org, is what about Michigan and Florida Delegates. From what I heard today if they were allowed to count as is, it would give Hillary more delegates than Obama.

    But Mich did not even have Obama on the ballot because it was determined their delegates were void. Even though they were determined void in Florida Obama was on the ballot but as the new comer he never campaigned because again they did not count.

    So, there are now 3 choices:

    1) Let the delegates now be counted as is.
    2) Do a re-vote (which leads to who pays the $18 million to do it all over again).
    3) Leave them invalid and uncounted delegates as originally ruled
    Personally I don't see the big deal in this. The states knew the rules going into this and decided to break those rules. If the state wants to hold their elections again, they should pay.

    Of course the states is screaming they don't have the money. The dnc does not want to pay so they have enough money for the general election.

    The other issue is dem voters feeling "disenfranchised" and not voting in the general election because of this issue.

    Whoever decided to move up the elections in those states should be fired....
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  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    The democrats and their party leaders were in any case innocent victims of the GOP.
    That was a leap I couldn't follow. It seems that they did this all to themselves.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    ...The states knew the rules going into this and decided to break those rules. If the state wants to hold their elections again, they should pay.

    Of course the states is screaming they don't have the money. The dnc does not want to pay so they have enough money for the general election.

    The other issue is dem voters feeling "disenfranchised" and not voting in the general election because of this issue. ...
    yup to all that

    States run elections when there are voting booths and ballots.

    The small cost to those states is an investment in fairness and democracy.

    Unfortunately its too easy to demogoque this as not making the tax payers bear the cost of party rules etc.
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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    That was a leap I couldn't follow. It seems that they did this all to themselves.
    Florida's state government is completely GOP run.

    They in effect decided to reshedule the primary unilaterally -- irrespective of the DNC's pleadings.

    Should the DNC have punished that state's citizens for what the GOP did ???

    As if ...
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    ya its probably bad.

    Life's never fair to democrats. Or BARYE...

    She's won more of the states where democrats have won and must win -- and she's won the most votes in total.

    Places like California, Florida, Nevada, Ohio, Michigan.

    His wins have been less impressive if you drill down and understand the make up of the states and the caucus process where he's gotten most (though not all) of his victories.

    I was always dubious of the idea of entirely disallowing state delegates to the voters of Florida and Michican. Couldn't some other penalty have been used ??? The democrats and their party leaders were in any case innocent victims of the GOP.

    For that they shoot the democrats ??

    And I've been accused of being unfair -- phew ...
    The only problem is that in the "big" states, he was not far behind in any of them. She only leads by around 250,000 votes... out of almost 26,000,000 cast. In one sense you could say that he is picking up the states needed to win... many swing states. And heck, he "should" have lost NY....

    I could see if he was blew out in CA, OH, and TX... MI and FL are places that obama did not even campaign... he was not even on the ballot in one. lol

    Blue states he will be ok, as long as he sticks to the script. I'm still thinking obama might be able to pull a one or two red states... I would not put it past him... I don't see him conceding many states or taking anything for granted... plus, I think he will have a plan to win.

    My thought is that clinton will run a traditional campaign and do fairly well....

    Either candidate will have their work cut out for them though... when those 527s get going, it is going to get bloody....
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  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I cannot speak for the world....yet....but as for me, sparing with you is a favorite pass time I enjoy a great deal!

    I am not disputing there were serious issues with Florida, as there were in nearly every other state, but your identical repeated comments sound so talking point-ish, it is almost kind of amusing.

    This is part of our nation's system, it makes no difference if he won 80% more popular votes but had less electoral votes. That person would lose a Presidential election. No matter if it this happened to a Rep candidate and then those loyal to the GOP were still wining about it 8 years later, it is a baseless, lawless, and an unconstitutional point.

    So since this is the second time you brought up this talking point....is your concern truly with the nation's election system? In other words would you have been just as upset if Bush would have been victim to these same circumstances or are you simply upset because it happenned with your guy?

    What sourcing do you have for all of these allegations that Jeb fixed the election in his state? Where there charges filed? What investigations were launched and what where their conclusions? .........Or is this simply your personal opinion for personal justification?

    But on a more general note, voting fraud, manipulating of the system via contacts and lawyers, and intimidation, were abundant on BOTH sides. The scary thing about pointing fingers is that the same scrutiny comes back on the side you are loyal to as well with tit-for-tat results that can be hard to accept if one walks a partisan line....for example the Dems tried to exclude the military votes in Florida because they are historically Rep dominated or when the Dems got caught trying to cast votes for voters that were dead in WA state Gov's race or when they slashed the tires of GOP local authorities on election day to hender their travel or when Dem supporters stole GOP local election headquarter computers or when Dem supporters tried to block access to voting boths by telling non Dem voters the machines were falsely broken and turning them away (this last one happened in Florida Gore/Bush election and was estimated to have cost Bush hundreds of votes).

    I would love a thread looking at voting offenses....regardless of party...with an eye of how to address it. But only if it is not an excuse to point partisan fingers and complain about the results not in favor with one's affiliated party.
    oh Hobbes ... let's suppose you had a friend ...

    And the two of you decided to go into business together.

    And that friend -- a modest, kind hearted, handsome (though hairy), and brilliant friend -- he just happened to also be The Emperor.

    The business the two of you decide to go into is the selling of high end HD-DVD players, the best ones -- the ones made by Toshiba.

    All is great -- until one day its not. Business goes south.

    Your friend thinks he's lost money because you've swindled him.

    He's unhappy.

    As you stand there if front of the bench awaiting the verdict -- having had a fair trial -- -- would the fact that your friend and business partner, The Emperor, appointed the judge who is to rule on how dastardly and venally you stole, exploited, and maipulated your former friend have any effect on how you evaluate the fairness of the proceedings ??

    just asking ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 03/08/2008 at 08:39 PM.
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