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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I think its a serious question.
    I think it's more avoidance of a tough question.
    I am wondering watch social disaster the pro-life advocates want to prevent.
    I am also wondering this (assuming you mean which and not 'watch'). OTOH, I can see some valid arguments for both positions (although I don't see anyone actually advancing them since both sides are just defaulting to an emotional appeal, i.e. "OH NOES!! THEY BE KILLIN TEH BABIES!!!" vs. "OH NOES!! THEY BE STEALIN MAH RIGHTS!!!").
    Other countries in the world are chugging a long fine, so whats causing this bee in their bonnet.
    In many contexts, we're all 'chugging a long fine'. OTOH, there is a lot of social disconnect in the world. Whether there have been studies on correlation/causation with certain societal influences, I'm not aware. That would require getting beyond the emotion and reframing the arguments.
    By just considering this issue in the American context people start conflating Democrats vs republicans and the jurisdiction of the court etc with what is really a real woman's rights issue.
    I think the problem is that it is framed as only a woman's right issue. What/who determines the existence of said right?
    So the question remains - why should American woman have less rights than women in UK or France or Germany etc?
    Not having a 'right' that exists elsewhere does not necessarily equate to 'less rights'. AFAIA, the number of rights have not been tallied and compared.
    Because some people here clearly want to take away their right to have an abortion.
    Or framed a different way, they want to establish if such a right exists in the first place.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    The question then just shifts to what is 'extreme'. What is common now may have been extreme 10, 20, or 30 years ago. What is extreme now may be child's play in 20 years. Let's say that an artificial womb was created tomorrow where natural gestation could be replaced. How would that change the debate?
    Or what if they find gestation can be accelerated using alien "pods" someday - would that change the debate?

    My only point is that common ground could be reached IMO and limiting abortions to the first n-days of gestation may help do that. Would it make the extreme left happy? Nope - they'll want access to abortions for the for the full term. Will it make the extreme right happy? Nope. They cannot seem to accept their responsibility in society to provide moral leadership and instead think that it should be legislated instead.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Or what if they find gestation can be accelerated using alien "pods" someday - would that change the debate?
    The key difference is that one of our scenarios is more likely to happen. The advances in caring for premature births within the last 30 or so years are quite astounding. A Stevie Wonder born today would likely not be blind. An artificial womb is much more plausible. It may be 2 years, 20, or 200, but there is a decent chance that it will happen.
    My only point is that common ground could be reached IMO and limiting abortions to the first n-days of gestation may help do that. Would it make the extreme left happy? Nope - they'll want access to abortions for the for the full term. Will it make the extreme right happy? Nope. They cannot seem to accept their responsibility in society to provide moral leadership and instead think that it should be legislated instead.
    I agree in theory, but I think that finding common ground could be easier by having a more reasonable approach. For example, how does one limit abortions without sanctions? The n-days would be difficult to write into statute since it will almost definitely change over time. Without some forethought about implementation, it just becomes another feel-good measure.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #24  
    I personally have no problem with making it increasingly difficult to justify abortion based on gestational age. Are there really pro-choice advocates who support abortion at 39 weeks for convenience?

    Surur
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why should contact with the air be the determining factor?
    I didn't say (or imply) that contact with air was a determining factor.
    Did you know:

    webOS ran on a Treo 800 during initial development.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by dkirker View Post
    I didn't say (or imply) that contact with air was a determining factor.
    It does seem to play into 'born' vs. 'unborn'.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I personally have no problem with making it increasingly difficult to justify abortion based on gestational age.
    I don't either to an extent. However, I think that legislative pursuits should have a bit higher standard.
    Are there really pro-choice advocates who support abortion at 39 weeks for convenience?
    Doubtful, but it makes for persuasive emotional rhetoric.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  8. #28  
    Compliments gentlemen on a rational discourse. It would be interesting to get some input from the female persuasion.

    P.s. Toby, believe or not but I am still planning on sending you those Dechutes samples. They are in my ice box, but I haven't quite made it to the post office.
    Visor-->Visor Phone-->Treo 180-->Treo 270-->Treo 600-->Treo 650-->Treo 700P-->Treo 755P-->Centro-->Pre+-->Pre 2
  9. #29  
    Heck, no one could agree even on this level of discussion. Maybe that's the reason why the Fed's just said, it's the woman's right to make that decision.

    Yup we need womens' input in here.

    OT: What's a dechutes sample?
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by ronbo2000 View Post
    Heck, no one could agree even on this level of discussion. Maybe that's the reason why the Fed's just said, it's the woman's right to make that decision.

    Yup we need womens' input in here.
    *shrug* Not sure if it'll make that big a difference. My wife thinks it's murder plain and simple.
    OT: What's a dechutes sample?
    Yeast by-products in suspension.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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