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  1. gojeda's Avatar
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    #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Catholics who use abstinence for family planning are like the Amish who use horses to plough - stuck in the past, and just as religiously fundamentalist.

    Surur
    Yes...yes....that is quite analogous.

    I understand the notion of keeping one's **** in one's pants (or keeping one's legs closed) is an archaic one in this day and age.

    This lack of self accountability manifests in many parts of society as a whole, and not just in the bedroom.

    If is, after all, much easier to "correct" things rather than take responsibility, right?
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    That is right....and the reason for abstaining is what?

    Re----- what?

    Re-----spon----?

    Bueller?

    Anyone?
    That's the view of Republican leadership, anyway.

  3. gojeda's Avatar
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    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    That's the view of Republican leadership, anyway.

    When you can't compete on the issues - POST A PIC!!

    Bra..........vo.
  4.    #104  
    back to Romney, Huckerbee, Iowa, and religion ...

    Something that's seldom discussed is why Romney's Mormon religion has become as much of an issue as it has.

    When Romney's father ran for President in '68 (?) it wasn't his faith that interfered with his ambitions -- it was his stupidity.

    (this is all from memory...) A social liberal, he had initially supported Vietnam before running in the Republican primary as an opponent of it. When asked what had caused him to change his mind, George Romney (Mitt's dad) said that it was because he'd been "brainwashed" by LBJ.

    Romney the senior may well have meant that phrase rhetorically, but it was understood by voters as the confession of a man with a very feeble mind. His candidacy evaporated soon there after.

    His Mormonism was never an issue though.

    Mo Udall, a liberal from out west, also unsuccessfully ran for President. I think it was '72. Though he narrowly lost, his Mormon religion was again never an issue.

    What makes Mitt's Mormonism so important this year is Iowa. Evangelicals constitute the largest single bloc of potential voters in the GOP Iowa caucus.

    The fact that Iowa has so many evangelicals and that Romney remolded himself to appeal to them is what is now coming to so damage him now.

    I had always thought of Mitt as an empty suit. In retrospect I think this is inaccurate. Mitt is more like Silly Puddy™.
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  5. gojeda's Avatar
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    #105  
    The people of Massachusetts seemed to like their Silly Puddy.

    That being said, I think it is a little premature to call Romney "dead in the water". Good seeing Huckabee getting the shot in the arm he needs.
  6.    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    The people of Massachusetts seemed to like their Silly Puddy...
    EXACTLY !!

    The form he took to become Governor of Massachusetts is radically different than the form that he currently exhibits -- a form required to win among Christian Iowans.

    He would not do well in Massachusetts unless he remolded himself back to that earlier incarnation.
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/11/2007 at 02:32 AM. Reason: major typos !!
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  7. gojeda's Avatar
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    #107  
    You seem to forget one thing: the State of Massachusetts is positively filled with Irish Catholics. The notion of the Silly Puddy Mormon governor doesn't cut it here with that lot.

    We will see what staying power Huckabee has after Iowa. I feel Huckabee's lustre will fade once questions of foreign policy are asked. Romney and the other major candidate should capitalize here.

    By the way, why is Romney and Huckabee criticized for their religious pitch while Obama Hussein does the same and gets the free pass?
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    .............How does one distinguish between a cult and a religion? Is there any other difference than the number of its adherents? One that someone who is not already a member of "The One True Religion" might recognize and rely upon?
    I found it! Here it is! "The specific Christian definition of a cult is a religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of Biblical truth." You can find it for yourself at http://www.gotquestions.org/cult-definition.html "The two most common teachings of cults are that Jesus was not God and that salvation is not by faith alone."

    Using this definition http://www.gotquestions.org/Mormons.html says that "Mormonism" is clearly a cult because "it contradicts, modifies, and expands on the Bible."

    There it is, a distinction as sharp as Occam's Razor.

    Of course Mormonism is in good company. This definition includes Islam, Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, and almost every other religion in the world.

    Oops. I just realized that this definition only works if you are already a "True Believer." But its okay because "Christians have no reason to believe that the Bible is not true and adequate." (I can't believe they actually wrote that one down. Perhaps it is "web-site defacement.")

    Do you suppose that the Catholics have a definition of a cult that includes Evangelical Christians?

    (I expect someone to complain that I took these quotes out of context but I really didn't. Please check them for yourself.)
    Up the next election, my citizens; always the next election.
  9.    #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    You seem to forget one thing: the State of Massachusetts is positively filled with Irish Catholics. The notion of the Silly Puddy Mormon governor doesn't cut it here with that lot...
    You're right of course.

    Massachusetts is not nearly as liberal as is generally believed.

    That Romney was replaced as Governor by a very liberal Black man is just an exception that really proves the rule.

    Or that junior lost to Saint Gore in 2000 by 60% to 32 % (Nader got 6.5%)

    Or that junior lost to Kerry 62% to 37% in 2004.

    But I accept your point about those Irish Catholics.

    Oh wait -- what's this?? I may have to google this -- just a moment...

    I think its true -- yes the senior Senator from Massachusetts -- elected since 1962 -- perhaps the most liberal member of the Senate, Senator Ted Kennedy: he's an Irish Catholic !!

    Admittedly in 2006, his popularity tanking because of Massachusetts' rising conservative tide, his winning percentage was just a modest 70% to 30%...
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/11/2007 at 02:33 AM.
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  10. gojeda's Avatar
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    #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    You're right of course.

    Massachusetts is not nearly as liberal as is generally believed.

    That Romney was replaced as Governor by a very liberal Black man is just an exception that really proves the rule.

    Or that junior lost to Saint Gore in 2000 by 60% to 32 % (Nader got 6.5%)

    Or that junior lost to Kerry 62% to 37% in 2004.

    But I accept your point about those Irish Catholics.

    Oh wait -- what's this?? I may have to google this -- just a moment...

    I think its true -- yes the senior Senator from Massachusetts -- elected since 1962 -- perhaps the most liberal member of the Senate, Senator Ted Kennedy: he's an Irish Catholic !!

    Admittedly in 2006, his popularity tanking because of Massachusetts' rising conservative tide, his winning percentage was just a modest 70% to 30%...

    Let us not forget that an official named Kennedy could kill someone and still be elected (oh wait, that's happened already).

    Kerry, of course, could carry his home state (unlike Gore), so the comparison is a bit suspect.

    But are you asserting that Massachusetts' voters are easily "fooled" instead?
  11.    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    You seem to forget one thing: the State of Massachusetts is positively filled with Irish Catholics. The notion of the Silly Puddy Mormon governor doesn't cut it here with that lot.

    We will see what staying power Huckabee has after Iowa. I feel Huckabee's lustre will fade once questions of foreign policy are asked. Romney and the other major candidate should capitalize here...
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Let us not forget that an official named Kennedy could kill someone and still be elected (oh wait, that's happened already).

    Kerry, of course, could carry his home state (unlike Gore), so the comparison is a bit suspect...
    My staff tells me that you have generously conceeded that yes, for Mitt Silly Puddy to get elected dog catcher in Massachusetts, he'd need to reshape himself yet again. Wonderful thing about Silly Puddy -- it shapeshifts and transmigrates so gracefully...

    I'd written somewhere a few months ago that Huckerbee was being under rated. I saw him up close a year or 2 ago when he chaired the National Governors conference. He came across as genuinely nice and charming in a neighborly kind of way in that context -- and though he offhandedly mentioned that he might be thinking of running for President, he mostly spoke about how losing weight had revitalized him, and made him care about helping others find a similar path to good health. (At the time though, I thought his presidential ambitions were delusional).

    I never directly had any interaction with him, but he did seem like a nice guy.

    But again we agree as to his long term prospects. He may well win the GOP nomination, but he'd likely be a very weak candidate in a national election. If nothing else, junior has taught the world that inexperience does not qualify someone to lead what was formerly the most powerful nation on the planet.
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/11/2007 at 05:00 PM.
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  12.    #112  
    Mr. Mitt Silly Puddy has received the convetted endorsement of NH's Concord Monitor. No doubt for him a proud day ...

    Money Quote:

    "...New Hampshire partisans are asked to defend the state's first-in-the-nation primary, we talk about our ability to see the candidates up close, ask tough questions and see through the baloney. If a candidate is a phony, we assure ourselves and the rest of the world, we'll know it.

    Mitt Romney is such a candidate
    ..."


    ...His memoir is called Turnaround - the story of his successful rescue of the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City - but the most stunning turnaround he has engineered is his own political career.

    If you followed only his tenure as governor of Massachusetts, you might imagine Romney as a pragmatic moderate with liberal positions on numerous social issues and an ability to work well with Democrats. If you followed only his campaign for president, you'd swear he was a red-meat conservative, pandering to the religious right, whatever the cost. Pay attention to both, and you're left to wonder if there's anything at all at his core.

    As a candidate for the U.S. Senate in 1994, he boasted that he would be a stronger advocate of gay rights than his opponent, Ted Kennedy. These days, he makes a point of his opposition to gay marriage and adoption.

    There was a time that he said he wanted to make contraception more available - and a time that he vetoed a bill to sell it over-the-counter.

    The old Romney assured voters he was pro-choice on abortion. "You will not see me wavering on that," he said in 1994, and he cited the tragedy of a relative's botched illegal abortion as the reason to keep abortions safe and legal. These days, he describes himself as pro-life.

    There was a time that he supported stem-cell research and cited his own wife's multiple sclerosis in explaining his thinking; such research, he reasoned, could help families like his. These days, he largely opposes it. As a candidate for governor, Romney dismissed an anti-tax pledge as a gimmick. In this race, he was
    the first to sign.

    People can change, and intransigence is not necessarily a virtue. But Romney has yet to explain this particular set of turnarounds in a way that convinces voters they are based on anything other than his own ambition...

    When New Hampshire partisans are asked to defend the state's first-in-the-nation primary, we talk about our ability to see the candidates up close, ask tough questions and see through the baloney. If a candidate is a phony, we assure ourselves and the rest of the world, we'll know it.

    Mitt Romney is such a candidate
    ..."
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  13. gojeda's Avatar
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    #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Mr. Mitt Silly Puddy has received the convetted endorsement of NH's Concord Monitor. No doubt for him a proud day ...

    Money Quote:

    "...New Hampshire partisans are asked to defend the state's first-in-the-nation primary, we talk about our ability to see the candidates up close, ask tough questions and see through the baloney. If a candidate is a phony, we assure ourselves and the rest of the world, we'll know it.

    Mitt Romney is such a candidate
    ..."


    ...His memoir is called Turnaround - the story of his successful rescue of the 2002 Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City - but the most stunning turnaround he has engineered is his own political career.

    If you followed only his tenure as governor of Massachusetts, you might imagine Romney as a pragmatic moderate with liberal positions on numerous social issues and an ability to work well with Democrats. If you followed only his campaign for president, you'd swear he was a red-meat conservative, pandering to the religious right, whatever the cost. Pay attention to both, and you're left to wonder if there's anything at all at his core.

    As a candidate for the U.S. Senate in 1994, he boasted that he would be a stronger advocate of gay rights than his opponent, Ted Kennedy. These days, he makes a point of his opposition to gay marriage and adoption.

    There was a time that he said he wanted to make contraception more available - and a time that he vetoed a bill to sell it over-the-counter.

    The old Romney assured voters he was pro-choice on abortion. "You will not see me wavering on that," he said in 1994, and he cited the tragedy of a relative's botched illegal abortion as the reason to keep abortions safe and legal. These days, he describes himself as pro-life.

    There was a time that he supported stem-cell research and cited his own wife's multiple sclerosis in explaining his thinking; such research, he reasoned, could help families like his. These days, he largely opposes it. As a candidate for governor, Romney dismissed an anti-tax pledge as a gimmick. In this race, he was
    the first to sign.

    People can change, and intransigence is not necessarily a virtue. But Romney has yet to explain this particular set of turnarounds in a way that convinces voters they are based on anything other than his own ambition...

    When New Hampshire partisans are asked to defend the state's first-in-the-nation primary, we talk about our ability to see the candidates up close, ask tough questions and see through the baloney. If a candidate is a phony, we assure ourselves and the rest of the world, we'll know it.

    Mitt Romney is such a candidate
    ..."
    Replace the words Mitt Romney with Hillary Clinton, and you have achieved the same effect.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    ..........Mitt Romney is such a candidate..."..."
    And of course, none of this has anything to do with the fact that he believes in the same myths as his friends and family.

    The race is not always to the swift but the election is always to the candidate who panders best.
    Up the next election, my citizens; always the next election.
  15. #115  
    The question was wrongly cast. The issue is not about a Mormon but about theists. Should we elect as president a person who believes that revelation ended with the Old Testament, the New Testament, The Quoran, the Book of Morman, Shakespeare, Einstein, Freud, Hawking, or Feyman?

    Should we elect as president someone who believes that everything his grandparents could to was "divinely ordained" but that what his children learn to do is interfering with "Natural Law" or "God's plan?"

    Should we elect as president a candidiate who believes that the myths and metaphors that he inherited from his family and friends are sufficiently superior to those of his neighbors that it justifies torture, suicide bombing, or war?

    If one is a theist, then, by definition, one must believe that the world is as God, whether by intent or consent, would have it be. If one is a theist, then, by definition, one must believe that God will defend his plan, that he needs little help from us and disowns much of what we do in his name. If he is as vengeful as the theists would have us believe, he has a special place in hell for those who exploit his name to maniputlate their neighbors or to advance their own political ambitions.
    Up the next election, my citizens; always the next election.
  16. gojeda's Avatar
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    #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    The question was wrongly cast. The issue is not about a Mormon but about theists. Should we elect as president a person who believes that revelation ended with the Old Testament, the New Testament, The Quoran, the Book of Morman, Shakespeare, Einstein, Freud, Hawking, or Feyman?

    Should we elect as president someone who believes that everything his grandparents could to was "divinely ordained" but that what his children learn to do is interfering with "Natural Law" or "God's plan?"

    Should we elect as president a candidiate who believes that the myths and metaphors that he inherited from his family and friends are sufficiently superior to those of his neighbors that it justifies torture, suicide bombing, or war?

    If one is a theist, then, by definition, one must believe that the world is as God, whether by intent or consent, would have it be. If one is a theist, then, by definition, one must believe that God will defend his plan, that he needs little help from us and disowns much of what we do in his name. If he is as vengeful as the theists would have us believe, he has a special place in hell for those who exploit his name to maniputlate their neighbors or to advance their own political ambitions.
    Wild and baseless generalizations aside, perhaps we should just elect a sea-cucumber and be done with it?
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Wild and baseless generalizations aside, perhaps we should just elect a sea-cucumber and be done with it?
    Your offspring has political ambitions? Congrats!
  18. gojeda's Avatar
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    #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Your offspring has political ambitions? Congrats!
    Ad hominem boy chimes in right on cue.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Wild and baseless generalizations aside, perhaps we should just elect a sea-cucumber and be done with it?
    Oops! I misread. I thought you said Sea-Monkey. My bad.
  20.    #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Mr. Mitt Silly Puddy has received the convetted endorsement of NH's Concord Monitor. No doubt for him a proud day ...

    Money Quote:

    "...New Hampshire partisans are asked to defend the state's first-in-the-nation primary, we talk about our ability to see the candidates up close, ask tough questions and see through the baloney. If a candidate is a phony, we assure ourselves and the rest of the world, we'll know it.

    Mitt Romney is such a candidate
    ..."

    ...When New Hampshire partisans are asked to defend the state's first-in-the-nation primary, we talk about our ability to see the candidates up close, ask tough questions and see through the baloney. If a candidate is a phony, we assure ourselves and the rest of the world, we'll know it.

    Mitt Romney is such a candidate
    ..."

    John McCain has begun running using almost the identical quotes and words that were in my earlier post...
    Last edited by BARYE; 12/30/2007 at 04:19 AM.
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