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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    This is exactly how Republican chickenhawks justified a fool's war 5 years ago. It doesn't wash, as evidence is necessary for the prosecution to fulfill its obligation. Beyond the US Intelligence Community's conclusions, what further intelligence do you purport to have which trumps that of the US government for the invasive actions you suggest against Iran?
    First off 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the Senate voted for this as well. This was far from the administration acting on their own.

    Several diplomatic efforts were made, including UN resolution 1441; Iraq choose to repeatably be un-cooperative with weapons inspectors for reasons unknown.

    Intelligence that was widely accepted+lack of cooperation+9/11 and the fact that it illustrated traditional warfare was not our only concern = attack.

    At the end of the day the intelligence was wrong. Which means the war is wrong, but it does not mean that the actions taken in 2002 and 2003 were not a logical progression that was adopted by both sides of the aisle.

    What to do now is ther real question.
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  2.    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by robber View Post
    First off 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the Senate voted for this as well. This was far from the administration acting on their own.

    Several diplomatic efforts were made, including UN resolution 1441; Iraq choose to repeatably be un-cooperative with weapons inspectors for reasons unknown.
    Resolution 1441 was diplomatic?

    The one which stated:
    * That Iraq was in material breach of the ceasefire terms presented under the terms of Resolution 687. Iraq's breaches related not only to Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs), but also the known construction of prohibited types of missiles, the purchase and import of prohibited armaments, and the continuing refusal of Iraq to compensate Kuwait for the widespread looting conducted by its troops in 1991.

    * That "...false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq’s obligations".

    Intelligence that was widely accepted+lack of cooperation+9/11 and the fact that it illustrated traditional warfare was not our only concern = attack.
    No. That equaled a colossal paranoid-schizophrenic Unamerican clusterf*ck on the US's part.

    At the end of the day the intelligence was wrong. Which means the war is wrong, but it does not mean that the actions taken in 2002 and 2003 were not a logical progression that was adopted by both sides of the aisle.
    This is not political. That's the point which escapes you. Being 100% in agreement doesn't mean anything when you're wrong.

    What to do now is ther real question.
    To cut thru the b/s of the previous page, it boils down to this:

    You and Hobbes are in favor of waging yet another armed conflict, this time with Iran if they limit access or don't have the proper documents readily available (see Iraq). While at the same time, you and Hobbes are in denial about what parity in the Middle East means. Exactly when was it that the IAEA was up Israel's nuclear colon so deep they could tell what they had for breakfast last week?

    Funny how JFK handled Cuba and the Soviet Union when those Soviet missiles (real ones, as determined by real intelligence) showed up 90 miles south of FL, isn't it? Yet, we haven't sacrificed enough lives, thousands of miles away, to satisfy the blood-thirsty angry mobsters among us over the inability to deal with Code Orange alerts.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Funny how JFK handled Cuba and the Soviet Union when those Soviet missiles (real ones, as determined by real intelligence) showed up 90 miles south of FL, isn't it? Yet, we haven't sacrificed enough lives, thousands of miles away, to satisfy the blood-thirsty angry mobsters among us over the inability to deal with Code Orange alerts.
    I don't disagree that JFK was one of the best presidents our country has ever had. But dont don't kid yourself into thinking modern democrats have a lot in common with him. They don't. Also keep in mind that he had his finger on the trigger, and the Soviet Union knew it. He also had Hiroshima and Nagasaki not too far behind in the rear view working to his advantage as well.

    I cant speak for Hobbes, but I am certainly not in favor of another conflict. However, I am in even less favor of cutting loose Iran. They are sitting on enourmous reserves of energy. If you can make an argument that they should have access to nuclear energy- then there are other countries willing to enrich for them- yet all of this is not good enough.

    **** them then.

    -Rob
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  4.    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by robber View Post
    I don't disagree that JFK was one of the best presidents our country has ever had. But dont don't kid yourself into thinking modern democrats have a lot in common with him. They don't.
    Still making it political when this issue is not. How Hobbes of you.

    Also keep in mind that he had his finger on the trigger, and the Soviet Union knew it. He also had Hiroshima and Nagasaki not too far behind in the rear view working to his advantage as well.
    Krushchev didn't blink from fear of a nuclear attack from the US, and Kennedy never offered such veiled threats. Kennedy did, however, underscore the grave, worldwide consequences if the direct threat to the US was not removed. You may want to further review the letters sent to Krushchev from Kennedy for better clarity. Once again, direct contact and engagement vs the Bush stiffarm. The results of which speak for themselves.

    The differences between the handling of the tangible crisis of Cuba and the chickenlittlehawks' fearmongering over Iran is stark. Hardnosed diplomacy diverted what may have been a worldwide calamity from which their could be no return, regarding Cuba/Soviet Union. No lives lost and diplomacy continued afterward. Regarding Iran, because US intelligence does not agree with the fearmongerers' drumbeat, the US tucks its tail behind the UN, knowing that it cannot produce the level of pacifier the US will continue to demand, while the US continues to move the goalposts. IOW, a coward's suckerpunch, ala Iraq.

    I cant speak for Hobbes, but I am certainly not in favor of another conflict.
    Sure you are. Who you think you're fooling?

    However, I am in even less favor of cutting loose Iran.
    Who has suggested Iran simply be cut loose?

    They are sitting on enourmous reserves of energy.
    Reserves with a cost and a value. Just listen to all the supporters for enhanced US nuclear power and you will then understand Iran's reason for its domestic development. Cleaner, cheaper, safer is what they will tell you.

    If you can make an argument that they should have access to nuclear energy
    See above.

    US-provided, zero-oversight, Nuclear-armed Israel just a couple blocks away from Iran's western border.

    **** them then.
    With that posture, Mr Kennedy, welcome to Hell.

    A bit amazing how you take a minor sidebar [JFK] and center a response around it while ignoring the primary substance of Middle East nuclear parity.
  5. #45  
    [QUOTE=lifes2short;1390348]Krushchev didn't blink from fear of a nuclear attack from the US, and Kennedy never offered such veiled threats. Kennedy did, however, underscore the grave, worldwide consequences if the direct threat to the US was not removed. You may want to further review the letters sent to Krushchev from Kennedy for better clarity. Once again, direct contact and engagement vs the Bush stiffarm. The results of which speak for themselves.QUOTE]

    This is laughable. Who are you trying to fool?


    Bottom line is that I believe in pursuing the best interest of the US. You believe that Iran should have every right that any other country has. You carry an idealist mindset that seems logically sound...until it is actually implemented and fails miserably.

    -Rob
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  6.    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Krushchev didn't blink from fear of a nuclear attack from the US, and Kennedy never offered such veiled threats. Kennedy did, however, underscore the grave, worldwide consequences if the direct threat to the US was not removed. You may want to further review the letters sent to Krushchev from Kennedy for better clarity. Once again, direct contact and engagement vs the Bush stiffarm. The results of which speak for themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by robber View Post
    This is laughable. Who are you trying to fool?
    What's laughable? Review the letters exchanged and tell me who's laughing. Cowards tremble and sabre-rattle from their secured bunkers. Leaders don't allow low-level pawns to do their leading for them. Those cowards do not represent what made the US great, nor what will provide visionary leadership out of this fool's brinkmanship.

    Bottom line is that I believe in pursuing the best interest of the US.
    Given that Nixon/Bushism, then I hope that complete isolation, no trading partners, a worthless dollar, a never-ending sacrifice of American troops, no job creation outside your local Citgo, an Economy owned by the Chinese, and a distant memory (for those of us old enough to remember) of what a man was who could lead this once great nation are your goals because your recipe is spot on!

    You believe that Iran should have every right that any other country has. You carry an idealist mindset that seems logically sound...until it is actually implemented and fails miserably.
    Self-determination is a societal value exclusive to the US, or requires a license purchased from the US?
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Really? What's the most recently conjured up excuse for the most prolific blundering cost in human lives and international support?

    Ummm ... WMD? Scratch!

    A 'Program' to develop WMD? Scratch!

    An intent to develop a program? Scratch!

    Liberty? Not in a thousand years.
    Read much Shortstuff?

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124924,00.html

    Scraping at the bottom of the newsmax-barrell (again)?
    Unable to tow the party line regarding an inconvenient detail of history - again?

    If a viable case could've been made to sufficiently try and convict bin Laden could've been made, the US DOJ would've, as bin Laden had not committed crimes against the US as of 1996.
    Ahh yes - the statute of limitations for terrorist activities against the state.

    If the US had been a banana republic then as it became 5 years later, then of course the US could've pulled him off the streets of Sudan, thrown him into a solitary cell in Romania, waterboarded him repeatedly, and yet 9/11 still would've happened as well as Madrid, London, Bali, etc, etc, etc.
    Since you have this magical crystal ball that no one seems to have access to, please further explain this alternate reality you find yourself living in.

    Anyone else in the mood for some Star Trek as told by Shortstuff?

    But, you, Chuckles, would've felt warm and fuzzy inside that the US was successfully saving the world from itself. Hhmmm ... Wait! This just in! ... The US cannot successfully save the world from itself as revealed to every sober, nonfreebasing, rational person who ever took a breath on this little blue marble!
    Who said anything about saving the world. I am more worried about saving our own collective hides.
  8. gojeda's Avatar
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Those cowards do not represent what made the US great, nor what will provide visionary leadership out of this fool's brinkmanship.
    Indeed - it is the "Blame America First" lot, headed by Shortstuff, that makes America great.

    Given that Nixon/Bushism, then I hope that complete isolation, no trading partners, a worthless dollar, a never-ending sacrifice of American troops, no job creation outside your local Citgo, an Economy owned by the Chinese, and a distant memory (for those of us old enough to remember) of what a man was who could lead this once great nation are your goals because your recipe is spot on!
    See what I mean? LMFAO!!
  9.    #49  
    [QUOTE=gojeda;1391134]Read much Shortstuff?

    //False-Source Snipped//

    No weaponized, enriched material was ever located, Chuckles.

    Ahh yes - the statute of limitations for terrorist activities against the state.
    Certainly, Let's rape Habeas Corpus rights before crimes has been committed, Chuckles.

    Now Showing: Chuckles, starring in
  10. gojeda's Avatar
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    #50  
    [QUOTE=lifes2short;1391166]
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Read much Shortstuff?

    //False-Source Snipped//

    No weaponized, enriched material was ever located, Chuckles.



    Certainly, Let's rape Habeas Corpus rights before crimes has been committed, Chuckles.

    Now Showing: Chuckles, starring in
    Dwelling in fiction....again....Shortstuff?
  11.    #51  
    ^ The reality you blindly, without critical thought, support, Chuckles.
  12. gojeda's Avatar
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    ^ The reality you blindly, without critical thought, support, Chuckles.
    While I provide a news article providing factual information, you provide.........a Hollywood movie poster. Bra----vo.

    Surely a manifestation of Shortstuff's much vaunted critical thinking skill.
  13.    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    While I provide a news article providing factual information, you provide.........a Hollywood movie poster. Bra----vo.
    In your case, a picture's worth 1000 posts, Chuckles.
  14. gojeda's Avatar
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    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    In your case, a picture's worth 1000 posts, Chuckles.
    Short on substance again Shorty?
  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Short on substance again Shorty?
    Your non-opposable to the elimination of Habeas Corpus is well documented here. Arrest without cause -> Detain without access to legal representation while bringing no charges -> Export to Eastern Europe nations who are willing to reuse their Holocaust cells for the subcontracted out Rendition and unabated torture of those who may look at Chuckles cross-eyed one day. But, of course, being the NeoCon you are, you haven't the wherewithall to speak such evil unAmerican thoughts yourself, sock-puppet.

    That whole you keep digging yourself into is well on its way to MaoMart.
  16. gojeda's Avatar
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    #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Arrest without cause.
    Arrest? Who was arrested?

    Detain without access to legal representation while bringing no charges
    Military tribunals, military trials, with military lawyers....

    I know, I know - inconvenient facts bore you.

    Export to Eastern Europe nations who are willing to reuse their Holocaust
    cells for the subcontracted out Rendition and unabated torture of those who may look at Chuckles cross-eyed one day.
    Contracted out "rendition"? Unabated torture? Oh yes, the said procedures Ms. Pel00si implicitly endorsed....correct?

    But, of course, being the NeoCon you are, you haven't the wherewithall to speak such evil unAmerican thoughts yourself, sock-puppet.
    There is a difference between un-American thoughts, and hating America Shortstuff, as you do.

    That whole you keep digging yourself into is well on its way to MaoMart.
    Of course, MaoMart sells many things - among them a dictionary that would have shown you the difference between 'whole' and 'hole'.

    Good show there ol' chap. <golf-clap>
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Military tribunals, military trials, with military lawyers....
    Your applause for the kangaroo court system for the few to have charges brought against them is duly noted, sock-puppet. The remaining 99% are simply collateral damage in your world. Afterall, they might have looked at Chuckles cross-eyed one day!

    Of demanding my nation stand up and demand the best of itself I am most guilty. In this sense, you are the only genuine shortie, Chuckles.

    Of course, MaoMart sells many things - among them a dictionary that would have shown you the difference between 'whole' and 'hole'.
    The play on words is simply beyond you, sock-puppet.
    Last edited by lifes2short; 12/28/2007 at 03:26 PM.
  18. gojeda's Avatar
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Your applause for the kangaroo court system for the few to have charges brought against them is duly noted, sock-puppet.
    Since you have made the claim that the judicial arm of the military is incapable of processing military combatants (and, quite frankly, there is nothing to say that they particularly deserve a military tribunal in the first place), perhaps you should provide the details for the mere fact that yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater does not mean there is one.

    Of demanding my nation stand up and demand the best of itself I am most guilty. In this sense, you are the only genuine shortie, Chuckles.
    This would require a bit of nobility and courage of one's part, so therefore it would not apply to you. However, if your rights were ever to be trampled upon, you (yes, even you) deserve the full protection of the same applicable laws that you so trivially marginalize in the name of politics.

    In this regard, you are without equal.
  19.    #59  
    What is the ratio of confined to successfully convicted, Chuckles? Of those held in Gitmo, how many have been fully released without further prosecution? The record speaks for itself as well as the rape of Habeas Corpus rights. Yet, you'll justify your fear-based support of Draconian policy so you don't have to cower under your security blanket at night.

    This would require a bit of nobility and courage of one's part, so therefore it would not apply to you.
    This, the notion of Nobility and Courage, from the resident sock-puppet is purely laughable, though a very sad joke, indeed. Take another shot of courage, Chuckles?

    However, if your rights were ever to be trampled upon, you (yes, even you) deserve the full protection of the same applicable laws that you so trivially marginalize in the name of politics.
    Your misreading of politics into every post is noted.
  20. gojeda's Avatar
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    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    What is the ratio of confined to successfully convicted, Chuckles?
    The detainees are not there so that their guilt or innocence can be determined. They are there because, firstly, they were found to be fighting against our troops or have intelligence that we may want.

    Your number's game is esoteric. The intelligence that has come from Gitmo, and other parts of the world, has indeed saved lives in the interim.

    Of those held in Gitmo, how many have been fully released without further prosecution? The record speaks for itself as well as the rape of Habeas Corpus rights. Yet, you'll justify your fear-based support of Draconian policy so you don't have to cower under your security blanket at night.
    How many have claimed torture, Chuckles? How many scars on their skin have you seen as a product of being under the control of American authorities?

    Or is it the fact that the average detainee has gained 18 pounds during their incarceration a symptom that they are getting 3 meals a day - which is likely far better fare than they were receiving in the mountains of Waziristan.

    As usual, your rhetoric doesn't pass the laugh test Shortstuff.
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