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  1. #21  
    Gosh, this conversation has really turned nasty. These guys and gals are actively protecting this country and what it stands for. The situation has been with us since was began; however, from the tone of the article, it is presented more-or-less one sided. It is frankly no different from any other war we have had. People enter it, people are changed. Some cope, some do not.

    Ben
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Then I suppose with this line of reasoning, you feel the same way about the teacher that taught YOU how to read? What about the policeman or fireman that may have to one day save YOUR life, or the life of a loved one?
    People pay lip service to the so-called "honored professions" but people get paid in proportion to how easily they can be replaced.

    How many months of training is it to be a private again?

    Surur
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorray View Post
    ...Just to clarify why I single out those in combat zones...when you are not in a combat zone, you are easily able to benefit from being in the military. Example, you can take a degree or work on your education in some way. When in a combat zone, you don't have that ability...you are too busy staying alive.
    exactly.

    Military combat is a unique and specific experiece.

    Those who undergo it should be treated vastly better than even ordinary veterans.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    People pay lip service to the so-called "honored professions" but people get paid in proportion to how easily they can be replaced.

    How many months of training is it to be a private again?

    Surur
    Well, I see CEO’s making millions get replaced all the time, rather easily. So this is another statement that doesn’t make much sense. As far as a privates training I really don’t know. But I would imagine it takes a lot longer and is much more honorable than sitting behind a computer looking up obscure tidbits about cell phones all day.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Well, I see CEO’s making millions get replaced all the time, rather easily. So this is another statement that doesn’t make much sense.
    The pool of good CEO's are pretty small.

    As far as a privates training I really don’t know. But I would imagine it takes a lot longer and is much more honorable than sitting behind a computer looking up obscure tidbits about cell phones all day.
    Thats why it doesn't pay much, unlike my day job, which pays pretty well indeed.

    Surur
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The pool of good CEO's are pretty small.



    Thats why it doesn't pay much, unlike my day job, which pays pretty well indeed.

    Surur
    right....right....if you say so.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  7. tirk's Avatar
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    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Please tell me you're not equating all combat veterans with that of William Calley?
    Every generalisation has exceptions was my point.
    PalmPilot Professional...Palm Vx...Treo 600...Treo 680...HTC Touch HD...iPhone 4S...
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Every generalisation has exceptions was my point.
    that goes without saying......or should.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  9. tirk's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    These guys and gals are actively protecting this country and what it stands for.
    Parochialism, perhaps?
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    exactly.

    Military combat is a unique and specific experiece.

    Those who undergo it should be treated vastly better than even ordinary veterans.
    Agreed...I am proud that I served, I wish that everyone would join the military just for a couple of years. I don't want to make it mandatory, but the experiences that I had while in uniform was something that I don't think I could replicate anywhere else. I learned how to lead, but more importantly, how to be lead. Since you can't just walk away from your enlistment, you learn to adapt to your surroundings rather than always railing against the establishment. While that might sound like you are giving in, you are actually learning what works and doesn't work so that improvements can be made.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    I am surprised none of the candidates have made this issue 1 (or issue 1a) of their campaigns. This could be one of thos "feel' good issues that would get wide support.
    Astute observation, I agree.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    People pay lip service to the so-called "honored professions" but people get paid in proportion to how easily they can be replaced.

    How many months of training is it to be a private again?

    Surur
    Again, how they got there or why isn't material once they've entered and are thrown into combat. They decidedly risked their lives to serve or at least accepted the fact that they may die someday in the name of their country (if they were driven to enlist due to the socioeconomic status).

    So because they can be trained in a matter of months rather than years their lives are somehow less important to society? They're expendable and if they make it home they may well end up in the street - but that is okay because you think they may have ended up there anyway?

    John Kerry was skewered for his insensitive comments about not finishing school and ending up in Iraq. I knew what he meant. I know what you mean (to some degree). The military doesn't always attract the societal crème of the crop - got it. But despite that, once they serve in harms way the mere fact that they risked their lives changes the dynamics of the entire conversation. They risked their lives and saw many a friend die to complete their mission. And because of their combat service, their socioeconomic status is no longer a factor in my opinion - and the same chickhawks that sent that troop into harm’s way needs to show real support when those troops get home.

    They say that there is no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole. I'll go a bit further with that sentiment - in my case I can tell you that there was no such thing as skin color, education level, or sexuality either in my fox holes. It doesn't matter one bit while you're in that fox hole and it shouldn't matter when you crawl out and finally make it home.

    Perhaps a whole new thread needs to be started about who should serve. The system needs to inject more parity into it to break this cycle of haves not going to war, and the have-nots going to war so the haves can have even more.
  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Astute observation, I agree.
    Wow. Maybe I'll need to stop igoring gojeda if he keeps talking like that.

    I agree!
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    The military doesn't always attract the societal crème of the crop - got it. But despite that, once they serve in harms way the mere fact that they risked their lives changes the dynamics of the entire conversation. They risked their lives and saw many a friend die to complete their mission. And because of their combat service, their socioeconomic status is no longer a factor in my opinion - and the same chickhawks that sent that troop into harm’s way needs to show real support when those troops get home.

    They say that there is no such thing as an atheist in a fox hole. I'll go a bit further with that sentiment - in my case I can tell you that there was no such thing as skin color, education level, or sexuality either in my fox holes. It doesn't matter one bit while you're in that fox hole and it shouldn't matter when you crawl out and finally make it home.
    I understand your view a bit more now. Its similar to Heinlein's in Starship Trooper. He felt only veterans or people who served the country had the right to vote and be called citizens, and everyone else were civilians, with less right.He basically felt serving the country conveyed extra honours.

    Surur
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I understand your view a bit more now. Its similar to Heinlein's in Starship Trooper. He felt only veterans or people who served the country had the right to vote and be called citizens, and everyone else were civilians, with less right.
    Uh? I never said that at all.

    He basically felt serving the country conveyed extra honours.
    With respect to proper care when returning from war, you're darn right I feel that way. The vets should be afforded the very best care our society can offer them so that they can assimilate and become productive members of society. Some may never overcome the trauma, but many can and will. We need to do better to minimize the number of vets that end up becoming homeless.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Wow. Maybe I'll need to stop igoring gojeda if he keeps talking like that.

    I agree!
    I did a double take when I saw the screen name. Hahaha ( Just playing gojeda, don’t even start.)
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    [...] Perhaps a whole new thread needs to be started about who should serve. [...]
    Personally, I think a better question would be 'why do we need a standing army in the first place?'
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Personally, I think a better question would be 'why do we need a standing army in the first place?'
    Good meta-view question. What do you think?
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Good meta-view question. What do you think?
    I don't think we do, or if we do, it doesn't need to be anywhere near the size it is. With the amount of money we spend on the military, it's a self-reinforcing loop where we 'need' to use it to justify its size. When we use it, it buys us enmity in certain sectors of the world and contributes to hostilities, which makes some feel that we have things to fear, which leads us to...
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. gojeda's Avatar
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Personally, I think a better question would be 'why do we need a standing army in the first place?'
    Because we are not Costa Rica?
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