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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Not really, just looking for all that "diversity" you mentioned. Anyway, thanks but I’ll pass on checking your work this time. I never really had much time for trivial pursuit.
    I am sorry a 60/40 split in favor of non Utah home grown politicians spread out over 14 different states and territories ranging from Atlantic to the Pacific is not diverse enough for you.....but it hardly supports your statement of your misleading fact with "but you failed to mention is the fact that the majority of people you listed are Utah politicians". I was only responding with actual facts against your claims that my statements were not factually based or I was biased with intentionally leaving out information with an attempt of being fraudulent.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/06/2007 at 10:01 PM.
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Barye...just like old times .....I was not disputing that this happens with the GOP in any way, but my point was that the Dems are also "endlessly clever at massaging those messages within seemingly innocent subtext" as well. There is plenty of tit for tat to go around. Do you really want another one of my 4 page long shotgun bullet point lists showing equal guilt from both sides? Or are you willing to admit the Dems are not as innocent as all that?
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    Hobbes -- just give me your 2 best counter examples of democrats doing something comparable (and not MoveOn either).
    So it does appear that you are not willingly able to (or maybe not capable of ) recognize it happens on both sides. Especially when you say "prove it, I dare you" but with conditions of what evidence can be used against your party line drawn in the sand.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/06/2007 at 09:57 PM.
  3. #63  
    So I guess to answer the question in the original post.....

    Gender and Ethnicity are not major concerns for most at all, though viewed as a potential factor with the population as a whole.

    Party affiliation does matter and is certainly an issue. In other words some cannot vote for the other party even if they are the better candidate.

    Religion affiliation does matter and is certainly an issue. Some cannot vote for a candidate if they belong to certain religions no matter if all other qualities are favorable.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/06/2007 at 10:02 PM.
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Party affiliation does matter and is certainly an issue. In other words some cannot vote for the other party even if they are the better candidate.

    Religion affiliation does matter and is certainly an issue. Some cannot vote for a candidate if they belong to certain religions no matter if all other qualities are favorable.
    Wow...that is very discouraging.
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Religion affiliation does matter and is certainly an issue. Some cannot vote for a candidate if they belong to certain religions no matter if all other qualities are favorable.
    Those Iraqis will never find peace until they look beyond religious affiliation.
    Oh wait...
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I am sorry a 60/40 split in favor of non Utah home grown politicians spread out over 14 different states and territories is not diverse enough for you.....but it hardly supports your statement of your misleading fact with "but you failed to mention is the fact that the majority of people you listed are Utah politicians". I was only responding with actual facts against your claims that my statements were not factually based or I was biased with intentionally leaving out information with an attempt of being fraudulent.
    Funny, you should mention the word fraudulent. What do you call nearly doubling your original list to get to that alleged 60/40 split..... after the fact?
    Also, funny thing about statistics, a person can slice and dice away until he makes whatever point heís trying to make with numbers. You claim 60/40 after nearly doubling the list? If you say so. But you see, I can take those same numbers slice it a different way and come out 80/20 (using your original list), if Iím counting and taking into account the strong influence of the neighboring states surrounding Utah. The 20 percent being a smattering across the U.S. with many of that 20 having lived, worked, gone to school etc., in Utah.
    But really this has gone a little further than I intended. Iím not trying to hate on Utah. Itís a lovely state with very friendly people. My point is you seemed to be overstating this perceive Mormon political juggernaut with your listing of all Mormons dead or alive. Hahahaha

    I was just using the information you originally posted and confined my
    analysis to that. I didnít expect you to go scour the internet looking for more bodies to place on your list. But thatís a typical republican move, preferring to move the goal posts.

    The thing to do when you get caught with their pants down is to simply say something like "you know, I see your point," Not to point to some widened stance....err...I mean list and then point a finger at the guy that bust you. Hahahahaha
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  7. #67  
    Man....I only found the additional information when I went looking to answer your own question. I had no motive, agenda, or goal. Your claim I moved the goal post is false as I listed the numbers of the original claim of Congress and the Senate, Governors, and WH appointees seperately just as I original posted. Then when researching the question that YOU asked, I found some additional useful and interesting information which is why I itemized the info out for you so that it could not be claimed that I was "moving the goal post". I was trying to be as honest and informative as I possible could.

    You claimed that majority of the politicians that are Mormon come from Utah. I said that a large chunk come from Utah but the majority of Mormon Politicians are not from Utah. Then accused me of skewing numbers, moving goal posts, exagerating factual claims to save face, etc... while trying to sincerely answer your factual statements that you would not back up.

    You cannot skew the numbers of where people are from. You cannot play with the numbers of what districts they represented. Simply list the candidate and the state they represent. Very simple concept that is not very complicated.

    You simply are bent on believing a concept rather than the facts and calling me a liar for sharing the facts. Below I listed the the numbers of each state that had a Mormon as a representative. (I did not list the White House Appointments because they were too numerous and did not have the time tonight redo the whole list yet again of which state each appointee was taken from). These are the facts, slice them any way you want. You claim the majority of Mormon politicians are from Utah, that is false. You seem to want to believe otherwise, but it is not true. Just as I said originaly a large chunck come from Utah, but the majority come from other states. If you look at Congress, the Senate, the Governors, WH appointees seperately it is all very consistantly close to a 60/40 split. If you look at the offices held and the states they represent for all appointments it is a 60/40 split. I cannot skew the states they represent without flat out lying plain and simple. Facts are facts because they are facts. Here are the numbers, you can do the math anyway you want.

    Congress 21 Mormons 8 from Utah 13 from other states. 38% from Utah 62% from other states:
    • 8 from Utah
    • 4 from California
    • 3 from Arizona
    • 2 from Idaho
    • 1 from Nevada
    • 1 from Okalahoma
    • 1 from New Mexico
    • 1 from American Samoa


    Senate: 15 Senators. 6 of them are from Utah and 9 of them are from other states. 40% from Utah and 60% from other states.
    • 6 from Utah
    • 3 from Nevada
    • 1 from Arizona
    • 1 from Idaho
    • 1 from Oregon
    • 1 from Florida


    Governors: 3 Governors. 1 is from Utah. 2 Are from other states. 33% from Utah 67% are from other states.
    • 1 from Massachusetts
    • 1 from Utah
    • 1 from Michigan


    I personally don't care very much about if the majority of Mormon politicians are from Utah or not, it is just frustrating to see someone make an false claim (probably very innocently) and then call me a liar when I share facts of the claim in an attempt to share the reality of it.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/06/2007 at 11:20 PM.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Man....I only found the additional information when I went looking to answer your own question. I had no motive, agenda, or goal. Your claim I moved the goal post is false as I listed the numbers of the original claim of Congress and the Senate, Governors, and WH appointees seperately just as I original posted. Then when researching the question that YOU asked, I found some additional useful and interesting information which is why I itemized the info out for you so that it could not be claimed that I was "moving the goal post". I was trying to be as honest and informative as I possible could.

    You claimed that majority of the politicians that are Mormon come from Utah. I said that a large chunk come from Utah but the majority of Mormon Politicians are not from Utah. Then accused me of skewing numbers, moving goal posts, exagerating factual claims to save face, etc... while trying to sincerely answer your factual statements that you would not back up.

    You cannot skew the numbers of where people are from. You cannot play with the numbers of what districts they represented. Simply list the candidate and the state they represent. Very simple concept that is not very complicated.

    You simply are bent on believing a concept rather than the facts and calling me a liar for sharing the facts. Below I listed the the numbers of each state that had a Mormon as a representative. (I did not list the White House Appointments because they were too numerous and did not have the time tonight redo the whole list yet again of which state each appointee was taken from). These are the facts, slice them any way you want. You claim the majority of Mormon politicians are from Utah, that is false. You seem to want to believe otherwise, but it is not true. Just as I said originaly a large chunck come from Utah, but the majority come from other states. If you look at Congress, the Senate, the Governors, WH appointees seperately it is all very consistantly close to a 60/40 split. If you look at the offices held and the states they represent for all appointments it is a 60/40 split. I cannot skew the states they represent without flat out lying plain and simple. Facts are facts because they are facts. Here are the numbers, you can do the math anyway you want.

    Congress 21 Mormons 8 from Utah 13 from other states. 38% from Utah 62% from other states:
    • 8 from Utah
    • 4 from California
    • 3 from Arizona
    • 2 from Idaho
    • 1 from Nevada
    • 1 from Okalahoma
    • 1 from New Mexico
    • 1 from American Samoa
    Senate: 15 Senators. 6 of them are from Utah and 9 of them are from other states. 40% from Utah and 60% from other states.
    • 6 from Utah
    • 3 from Nevada
    • 1 from Arizona
    • 1 from Idaho
    • 1 from Oregon
    • 1 from Florida
    Governors: 3 Governors. 1 is from Utah. 2 Are from other states. 33% from Utah 67% are from other states.
    • 1 from Massachusetts
    • 1 from Utah
    • 1 from Michigan
    I personally don't care very much about if the majority of Mormon politicians are from Utah or not, it is just frustrating to see someone make an false claim (probably very innocently) and then call me a liar when I share facts of the claim in an attempt to share the reality of it.
    What I said was a majority of the people on your original list came from Utah. Hobbs, one lone Congressman in the middle of Oklahoma or up there in Idaho or another one or two here or there is not very significant in the overall scheme of things. But when you lump them all together, you may be able to make a case if you're trying to sell something, especially, to those all ready use to drinking the kool-aid.

    One other way to look at it is, if I ask you “ even according to your revised list, which state has the most LDS Congressmen?” What are you going to tell me? Are you going to say New Mexico?
    What about Oklahoma?
    Or would you answer the question the way a reasonably prudent person would and just say Utah ?

    Me Thinks Thou Doth Protest Too Much.
    Last edited by Iago; 11/07/2007 at 01:06 AM.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  9.    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Barye...just like old times .....I was not disputing that this happens with the GOP in any way, but my point was that the Dems are also "endlessly clever at massaging those messages within seemingly innocent subtext" as well. There is plenty of tit for tat to go around. Do you really want another one of my 4 page long shotgun bullet point lists showing equal guilt from both sides? Or are you willing to admit the Dems are not as innocent as all that?
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    So it does appear that you are not willingly able to (or maybe not capable of ) recognize it happens on both sides. Especially when you say "prove it, I dare you" but with conditions of what evidence can be used against your party line drawn in the sand.
    gosh Hobbes, little 'ol BARYE was just quoting back to you, your own words.

    The examples I cited were committed by established GOP candidates.

    The fact is you'd have a devilish time finding democrats acting similarly
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/07/2007 at 11:37 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  10. gojeda's Avatar
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    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    The infamous Jesse Helms ad run while he was up against a popular Black opponent.
    An ad about affirmative action? This is offensive?
  11. gojeda's Avatar
    Posts
    93 Posts
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    104 Global Posts
    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    gosh Hobbes, little 'ol BARYE was just quoting back to you, your own words.

    The examples I cited were committed by established GOP candidates.

    The fact is you'd a devilish time finding democrats acting similarly
    Really?

    Jesse Jackson concurring with Harry Belafonte that Colin Powell was a "house slave"?

    Biden asking if Bush was brain dead?

    Gore slandering Ashcroft after 9/11 for rounding up 762 arabs in the US, the vast majority of whom were here illegally - branding the former attorney general as a racist? (A refrain soon repeated by many in the Democrat leadership).

    Hillary refusing to vote against the measure that condemned the infamous "General Betray Us" episode.

    Jesse Jackson questioning if Obama is acting black enough? Heimytown?

    Al Sharpton?

    ...I mean, do we need to go back and visit Kerry's long and illustrious history of slander going back to Vietnam?

    Let me make a quick call to the Pentagon. Clearly your waterboarding sessions have affected your judgement!
    Last edited by gojeda; 11/07/2007 at 06:11 AM.
  12. #72  
    Religion, or more aptly belief system, matters to me in the sense that it tells me how you perceive the world and your place in it. There are some known beliefs that cause me concern in terms of vesting the power of the Executive.

    Religion, specifically, matters to the extent that one is subject to his/her religious organization or leadership.
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Me Thinks Thou Doth Protest Too Much.
    Again. This statistic is NOT an issue with me at all. I personally do not care if 120% of all the politicians that are Mormon come from only the state of Utah exclusively. I only researched a claim you made as fact as I found it was an interesting claim. But when what I found did not coincide with what you stated, instead of responding with "Oh, cool I did not realize that" (a fact that I did not know either until I researched your statement) you accused me of lying, cooking the books, etc... So when I went to research your renewed statement again, I find additional information directly relating to your original claim. And when these newly found facts establish more facts countering your stated fact, I get accused of moving the goal post, exaggerating, and playing a political agenda...again instead of acknowledging the error in your original statement of FACT as an innocent error. When I explain this I get attacked yet again. It was simply an interesting trivia point and then my integrity gets accosted because the research I took the time to research for your statement did not comply with your original conception of what it should be.

    Not healthy debate etiquette.

    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    One other way to look at it is, if I ask you “ even according to your revised list, which state has the most LDS Congressmen?” What are you going to tell me?
    I would tell you my original and consistent statement I have made since the beginning, while pointing out that you have changed your claim as evidence was discovered. I stated a large chunk of Mormon politicians are from Utah but the majority of Mormon politicians are NOT from Utah.

    My original claim:
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    Sure there are lot from Utah, but I actually did not take the time to include it because it was so diverse I did not realize it needed to be addressed. Sure a lot of them come from Western states (and not just Utah BTW) but rather they do fall along states that are more conservative which might be expected when looking at any Christian denomination representation in the US gov, with plenty of exceptions to it all.
    Your original claimed was
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago
    What your google search also brought up, but you failed to mention is the fact that the majority of people you listed are Utah politicians.
    And then continued with insults to me when faced with the real facts that 60% of Mormon politicians are NOT from Utah but instead spreading out over 14 different states and territories while refusing to verify your own claims of fact or refusing to offer any backing that your claims that my facts are false. You mimize the facts by stating that since only one is from Florida that really doesn't matter much when looking if they are from Utah. Or that since they are from California, Nevada, Idaho, etc... they count as Utah because Utah has so much influence on them as a facts to support your original claim and arguments that my facts are scewed to serve a personal agenda.

    You charged me with moving the goal posts for sharing new information I found from doing additional research that you would not do for your own claims that resulted in further facts against your claim. Then it appears you do exactly what you charged me with. When your FACT that a majority of the politicians of the Mormon politicians were not from Utah your claim then morphed to surrounding states as they should be counted as the same as Utah because Utah influences them so closely and that if the politicians went to school in Utah they should be counted as politicians from Utah to support you fact. But again with not backing up even where they went to school, was this another guess of fact? I do not know because I did not do a Bio on every Mormon politician and their educational path.
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago
    If you say so. But you see, I can take those same numbers slice it a different way and come out 80/20 (using your original list), if I’m counting and taking into account the strong influence of the neighboring states surrounding Utah. The 20 percent being a smattering across the U.S. with many of that 20 having lived, worked, gone to school etc., in Utah.
    And then you changed the perception of your original statement of fact to possibly be interpreted as lining up with my original statement that the largest chunk of Mormon politicians may be from Utah but the majority are from other states....which is what I said to begin with:
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago
    What I said was a majority of the people on your original list came from Utah.
    followed by another post of insults because you were wrong and changed your statement of FACTS with a load of insults instead of recognizing you actually agree with my original statement. But if you mean by this last statement is that Utah has the largest chunk of Mormon politicians even though that the majority of Mormon politicians are not from Utah, then yes I fully agree.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/07/2007 at 11:59 AM.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Again. This statistic is NOT an issue with me at all. I personally do not care if 120% of all the politicians that are Mormon come from only the state of Utah exclusively. I only researched a claim you made as fact as I found it was an interesting claim. But when what I found did not coincide with what you stated, instead of responding with "Oh, cool I did not realize that" (a fact that I did not know either until I researched your statement) you accused me of lying, cooking the books, etc... So when I went to research your renewed statement again, I find additional information directly relating to your original claim. And when these newly found facts establish more facts countering your stated fact, I get accused of moving the goal post, exaggerating, and playing a political agenda...again instead of acknowledging the error in your original statement of FACT as an innocent error. When I explain this I get attacked yet again. It was simply an interesting trivia point and then my integrity gets accosted because the research I took the time to research for your statement did not comply with your original conception of what it should be.

    Not healthy debate etiquette.

    I would tell you my original and consistent statement I have made since the beginning, while pointing out that you have changed your claim as evidence was discovered. I stated a large chunk of Mormon politicians are from Utah but the majority of Mormon politicians are NOT from Utah.

    My original claim:

    Your original claimed was

    And then continued with insults to me when faced with the real facts that 60% of Mormon politicians are NOT from Utah but instead spreading out over 14 different states and territories while refusing to verify your own claims of fact or refusing to offer any backing that your claims that my facts are false. You mimize the facts by stating that since only one is from Florida that really doesn't matter much when looking if they are from Utah. Or that since they are from California, Nevada, Idaho, etc... they count as Utah because Utah has so much influence on them as a facts to support your original claim and arguments that my facts are scewed to serve a personal agenda.

    You charged me with moving the goal posts for sharing new information I found from doing additional research that you would not do for your own claims that resulted in further facts against your claim. Then it appears you do exactly what you charged me with. When your FACT that a majority of the politicians of the Mormon politicians were not from Utah your claim then morphed to surrounding states as they should be counted as the same as Utah because Utah influences them so closely and that if the politicians went to school in Utah they should be counted as politicians from Utah to support you fact. But again with not backing up even where they went to school, was this another guess of fact? I do not know because I did not do a Bio on every Mormon politician and their educational path.
    And then you changed the perception of your original statement of fact to possibly be interpreted as lining up with my original statement that the largest chunk of Mormon politicians may be from Utah but the majority are from other states....which is what I said to begin with:
    followed by another post of insults because you were wrong and changed your statement of FACTS with a load of insults instead of recognizing you actually agree with my original statement. But if you mean by this last statement is that Utah has the largest chunk of Mormon politicians even though that the majority of Mormon politicians are not from Utah, then yes I fully agree.
    I didnít change any perception. Maybe the fog is lifting perhaps? I was just giving you another way of looking at your numbers. Again I was never talking about all Mormon politicians, just the ones in your post # 41. Do I have to say that again? OK.... I was never talking about all Mormon politicians........

    Your original claim was post # 41 and your laundry list of has been and never were Mormon politicians. Not any subsequent statements.

    I notice you like to convolute an issue by using a lot of word noise. That is.... using a lot of words, but not really saying anything. You tie yourself up in knots and wind up making the very point I was.
    As for debate etiquette? We are not on the Senate floor. I donít have to preface by saying ďI respectfully disagree with the gentle-i-man from Hobbsville....... I think if I was insulting you, Iíd be kicked off this site by now.
    You can have the last word. Iím done. Donít make it too long though, I havenít had my coffee yet. Hahahaha
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
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