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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Depends on the context. Are we talking about an anti-Catholic JFK type issue, or are we talking about a who thinks the Earth is only 6000 years old issue? The former type bothers me a bit. The latter I think is a legitimate issue.
    The former. The latter goes into the realm of political debates in schools which is a valid point of interest when deciding on a candidate. The source of the view is not the subject, but the expressed view that the candidate will act on. Gay Marriage is another issue that many hold political views on regardless of their religious affiliation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Care to cite an example?
    This thread for example. There were some comments to the context of "I could not vote for a Mormon because they were Mormon" with no regard to the candidate's political views. In other words they used religion as a tool against a candidate with no political thought or reasoning, just religious biased. And this would go for nearly any other statement like "I could not vote for a Catholic because they were a Catholic" or "I could not vote for a Jew because they were a Jew"

    I have also seen reporters from papers and news rooms (both Left & Right wing orgs) who do not politically align with a candidate try to delve and dig up religious dirt on a candidate while all but ignoring or give a free pass on the religious views (or lack of) of candidates they align with politically. For example, I have seen articles with the Headlines with Romney & Mormon in it over and over again at Fox, CNN, LA Times, NY Times, etc.... But I have yet to see a Headline with Hillary & her claimed denomination, or Obama and his claimed denomination, Edwards and his claimed denomination, McCain and his claimed denomination, and....etc... with the focus on the article being just about their affiliation or lack of with a denomination.

    What gets me is how big of an issue it is that Romney is a Mormon when considering how many Mormon politicians there are and a have been in high ranking gov positions. Especially when we see such a wide range of the political spectrum from Harry Reid to Orrin Hatch and with most being Rep but a large percentage also being Democrat. A quick Google brought this up:

    Senate:
    • Harry Reid -- US Senate Majority Leader
    • Orrin Hatch -- US Senator 1976 - current
    • Bob Bennett -- US Senator 1992
    • Berkeley Bunker -- US Senator 2003
    • Howard W. Cannon -- US Senator
    • Mike Crapo -- US Senator 2003
    • Jake Garn -- astronaut & Senator Utah
    • Paula Hawkins -- US Senator 1982
    • Gordon Smith -- US Senator current
    • Elbert Duncan Thomas -- US Senator


    White House:
    • Michael O. Leavitt -- Secretary Health and Human Services 2003. Governor from 1993-2003
    • Terrel Bell -- Secretary of Education 1981
    • Ezra Taft Benson -- US Secretary of Agriculture entire eight years of Eisenhower's two terms
    • Angela "Bay" Buchanan -- US Treasurer 1981
    • J. Reuben Clark -- Undersecretary of State
    • David Matthew Kennedy -- Secretary of the Treasury 1968
    • Gregory J. Newell -- Undersecretary of State 1981
    • Ivy Baker Priest -- US Treasurer 1953-1961
    • Stewart Udall -- US Secretary of the Interior 1961-1969


    Govenor:
    • Jon Huntsman, Jr. -- Governor
    • George W. Romney -- Governor 1968
    • Mitt Romney -- Former Governor


    Congress:
    • Rob Bishop -- Congressman 2003
    • John Doolittle -- Congressman 2003
    • Eni F.H. Faleomavaega -- Delegate to U.S. Congress American Samoa 1988
    • Jeff Flake -- Congressman 2000
    • Jim Gibbons -- Congressman 1998
    • Jim Hansen -- Congressman 1980-2002
    • Ralph Harding -- US Congressman
    • Wally Herger -- Congressman 2003
    • Ernest Istook -- Congressman 1993-2007
    • Rep. David S. King -- Congressman 1967
    • Buck McKeon -- Congressman 2003
    • Rep. Howard Nielson -- Congressman 1983-1991
    • Rep. Dan Marriott -- Congressman 1977-1985
    • Jim Matheson -- Congressman 2003
    • Ron Packard -- Congressman In 2001, he retired after 18 years
    • Mike Simpson -- Congressman 2003
    • Tom Udall -- Congressman 2003
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/05/2007 at 02:56 PM.
  2. gojeda's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Come now gojeda......most if not all polls have Obama trailing Hillary among black voters so there is no lock for Obama. Yeah he may be more likeable....but also beatable, which is why most repubilcans would love to see him get the nomination.
    Well, I didn't say it was a lock. I said there are some that will vote for the man based on race, just as there are those who will vote against him for the same reason.

    All things being equal, if Obama was not black - he would probably lose whatever support he has left in the black vote, and the gap would be even larger. That being said, we are still a while away from party nominations. Obama had a sizeable lead among blacks earlier this year. He could very well get that back.
  3.    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    You cannot, with an honest heart, say that is exclusive to the GOP. Can you? ...
    referring to:

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE
    and the Roves of the GOP are endlessly clever at massaging those messages within seemingly innocent subtext
    a couple of quick examples before I get back to my waterboarding:

    The infamous Jesse Helms ad run while he was up against a popular Black opponent.

    John McAin has an "illegitimate black child" whispered rumour campaign -- put out by junior during the S. Carolina primary.

    (BTW Hobbes: Jake Garn -- astronaut & Senator Utah ??!!!??

    I vomitted in his honor when I read that !!)
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/05/2007 at 05:29 PM.
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  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    What gets me is how big of an issue it is that Romney is a Mormon when considering how many Mormon politicians there are and a have been in high ranking gov positions. Especially when we see such a wide range of the political spectrum from Harry Reid to Orrin Hatch and with most being Rep but a large percentage also being Democrat. A quick Google brought this up:

    Senate:
    • Harry Reid -- US Senate Majority Leader
    • Orrin Hatch -- US Senator 1976 - current
    • Bob Bennett -- US Senator 1992
    • Berkeley Bunker -- US Senator 2003
    • Howard W. Cannon -- US Senator
    • Mike Crapo -- US Senator 2003
    • Jake Garn -- astronaut & Senator Utah
    • Paula Hawkins -- US Senator 1982
    • Gordon Smith -- US Senator current
    • Elbert Duncan Thomas -- US Senator
    White House:
    • Michael O. Leavitt -- Secretary Health and Human Services 2003. Governor from 1993-2003
    • Terrel Bell -- Secretary of Education 1981
    • Ezra Taft Benson -- US Secretary of Agriculture entire eight years of Eisenhower's two terms
    • Angela "Bay" Buchanan -- US Treasurer 1981
    • J. Reuben Clark -- Undersecretary of State
    • David Matthew Kennedy -- Secretary of the Treasury 1968
    • Gregory J. Newell -- Undersecretary of State 1981
    • Ivy Baker Priest -- US Treasurer 1953-1961
    • Stewart Udall -- US Secretary of the Interior 1961-1969
    Govenor:
    • Jon Huntsman, Jr. -- Governor
    • George W. Romney -- Governor 1968
    • Mitt Romney -- Former Governor
    Congress:
    • Rob Bishop -- Congressman 2003
    • John Doolittle -- Congressman 2003
    • Eni F.H. Faleomavaega -- Delegate to U.S. Congress American Samoa 1988
    • Jeff Flake -- Congressman 2000
    • Jim Gibbons -- Congressman 1998
    • Jim Hansen -- Congressman 1980-2002
    • Ralph Harding -- US Congressman
    • Wally Herger -- Congressman 2003
    • Ernest Istook -- Congressman 1993-2007
    • Rep. David S. King -- Congressman 1967
    • Buck McKeon -- Congressman 2003
    • Rep. Howard Nielson -- Congressman 1983-1991
    • Rep. Dan Marriott -- Congressman 1977-1985
    • Jim Matheson -- Congressman 2003
    • Ron Packard -- Congressman In 2001, he retired after 18 years
    • Mike Simpson -- Congressman 2003
    • Tom Udall -- Congressman 2003

    What your google search also brought up, but you failed to mention is the fact that the majority of people you listed are Utah politicians. A fair number of the rest coming from neighboring west coast states. So basically, what I get from this list is the obvious fact that it would be reasonable to expect Utah politicians to be Mormon.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    referring to:


    a couple of quick examples before I get back to my waterboarding:

    The infamous Jesse Helms ad run while he was up against a popular Black opponent.

    John McAin has an "illegitimate black child" whispered rumour campaign -- put out by junior during the S. Carolina primary.
    Barye...just like old times .....I was not disputing that this happens with the GOP in any way, but my point was that the Dems are also "endlessly clever at massaging those messages within seemingly innocent subtext" as well. There is plenty of tit for tat to go around. Do you really want another one of my 4 page long shotgun bullet point lists showing equal guilt from both sides? Or are you willing to admit the Dems are not as innocent as all that?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/05/2007 at 11:27 PM.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    What your google search also brought up, but you failed to mention is the fact that the majority of people you listed are Utah politicians. A fair number of the rest coming from neighboring west coast states. So basically, what I get from this list is the obvious fact that it would be reasonable to expect Utah politicians to be Mormon.
    That is a pretty stereotypical response. Sure there are lot from Utah, but I actually did not take the time to include it because it was so diverse I did not realize it needed to be addressed. Sure a lot of them come from Western states (and not just Utah BTW) but rather they do fall along states that are more conservative which might be expected when looking at any Christian denomination representation in the US gov, with plenty of exceptions to it all.

    The congressmen & senators listed above are Representatives from:
    • Nevada
    • California
    • Okalahoma
    • Utah
    • Florida
    • Arizona
    • Idaho
    • American Samoa
    • Oregon
    • Washington DC
    • Illinois
    • New Mexico


    The Govenors are from:
    • Massachusetts
    • Utah
    • Michigan


    White House officials are from:
    • Illinois
    • Washington DC
    • Idaho
    • Arizona
    • Utah
    • California
    • Nevada
    • New Mexico


    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    So basically, what I get from this list is the obvious fact that it would be reasonable to expect Utah politicians to be Mormon.
    About 3 weeks ago, I heard a report on one of the 3 Cable News networks on....Mormons because of Mitt....and they said that currently only around half, something like only 55%, of the residents in Utah are Mormons. And that within the next 10 or 15 years it is projected to be around 40%. I just found that interesting and was triggered in my memory by your comment above. They also mentioned that there are a fair amount of Democrat Mormons in the state of Utah as well, but I do not remember the percentage break down they shared, though they covered it at both state and federal levels.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/05/2007 at 10:50 PM.
  7. gojeda's Avatar
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    #47  
    Interesting phenomena in that a Mormon, who are by-and-large a conservative lot, was able to be elected as governor of a very liberal state.

    Hobbes I am sure you have seen, in your cursory research here, that while Mormons represent 1.5% of the population, they make up 5% of elected officials in Congress (as of 2004).
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    That is a pretty stereotypical response. Sure there are lot from Utah, but I actually did not take the time to include it because it was so diverse I did not realize it needed to be addressed.

    The congressmen & senators listed above are Representatives from:
    • Nevada
    • California
    • Okalahoma
    • Utah
    • Florida
    • Arizona
    • Idaho
    • American Samoa
    • Oregon
    Now if you would just place a “1" next to Florida, Oregon, Oklahoma, and American Samoa, we would have a better understanding and more accurate reflection of what you call “diverse.” Would that be too stereotypical ?
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  9. #49  
    While I am generally pretty much live and let live, I've had enough experiences with Mormons that I can say some of them are a bit "touch". Any religion in this day and age that gets duped by a con man and starts killing people...well, it's a bit off. And the fact they let the polygamy/child rape perputate, makes me pretty much not have much love for the Mormon Organization.

    (as always, individual people can be different).
  10. #50  
    Just an FYI.....None of any of the Polygamy cases in last 160 years have anything to do with the Mormons. They are are rogue off shoots with no affiliation at all.
  11. #51  
    Uh, sure...just like the Catholic church didn't know about molesting priest.

    Maybe not "affliated", but they knew where they were and just let it go on until outside pressure forced them to do something.
  12. #52  
    It is a practice the Mormons stopped over 150 years ago or something like that. It is against the law in Utah as it is any state. It is denounced by the Mormon Church. To the best of my understanding anyone found practicing it is excommunicated, which would bring public notice to the issue, which I would think would bring in the law. These groups that are doing it now are not Mormons in any way, shape, or form. The Mormon Church has nothing to do with them, no authority, no association, no dealings with them any more than they do with Baptists orgs, Born Agains, Methodists congregations, etc...

    The example you used with the Priests cannot even relate as an accurate example and possibly shows that you may not understand what my original point was all about. The Priests are part of the Catholic Church. So the Catholic Church is responsible for their behavior. But the Catholic Church use to burn those at the stake who practiced science and published their findings. If a group left the Catholic Church and continued that practice today under the name of the Reformed Church of Catholics, would the Catholic Church be responsible for their acts or would the rogue group be responsible for their own acts?
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Now if you would just place a “1" next to Florida, Oregon, Oklahoma, and American Samoa, we would have a better understanding and more accurate reflection of what you call “diverse.” Would that be too stereotypical?
    You are dead set on this all Mormons come from Utah thing. You could do the numbers yourself. If you did you would find what I was able to find with Google:

    Congress: I count 21 Congressmen...not counting multiple terms. 8 of them are from Utah. 13 of them are from other states

    Senate: I count 15 Senators. 6 of them are from Utah and 9 of them are from other states.

    Governors: I count 3. 1 is from Utah. 2 Are from other states.

    White House Appointments: I counted 29. 12 are from Utah and 17 are from other states.

    So the total is 68 politicians that I found. 27 are from Utah. 41 are from other states. So by my extremely scientific personal Google calculations I show only 39% are from Utah and 61% are not. Which goes right along with my statement of "Sure a lot of them come from Western states (and not just Utah BTW) but rather they do fall along states that are more conservative which might be expected when looking at any Christian denomination representation in the US gov, with plenty of exceptions to it all."

    BTW I did find several states that I missed the first time around I updated my previous post accordingly.

    I did not even include other high profile positions I found from Google in my original post like:
    • Ambassador to Mexico
    • Ambassador to the UN
    • ambassador to NATO
    • Assistant to President Reagan
    • Assistant Secretary of State for International Organization Affairs
    • ambassador to Sweden
    • director of Presidential scheduling, Reagan-Bush Committee
    • California Treasurer under Ronald Reagan
    • first civilian High Commissioner of the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands
    • U.S. State Department Solicitor
    • chairman of the Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee
    • diplomat for both Bush administrations
    • Ambassador-at-Large for the United States under Nixon
    • U.S. ambassador to the African island nations of Madagascar and Mauritius
    • Secretary of the Department of Housing and Urban Development
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/05/2007 at 10:50 PM.
  14.    #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Uh, sure...just like the Catholic church didn't know about molesting priest.

    Maybe not "affliated", but they knew where they were and just let it go on until outside pressure forced them to do something.
    yep. I agree.
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  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    It is a practice the Mormons stopped over 150 years ago or something like that. It is against the law in Utah as it is any state. It is denounced by the Mormon Church. To the best of my understanding anyone found practicing it is excommunicated, which would bring public notice to the issue, which I would think would bring in the law. These groups that are doing it now are not Mormons in any way, shape, or form. The Mormon Church has nothing to do with them, no authority, no association, no dealings with them ...


    Those groups do their stuff openly -- they use the same Mormon scripture, retell the same tales, worship the same prophets.

    They espouse what they claim to be the fundamental orthodox interpretation of the true faith -- one that is without the artificial change wrought by the leadership in the 19th Century in order for Utah to be admitted to the U.S.

    Despite all that -- every Mormon I have ever met (maybe 10-15 in my very very long life) has been exceptionally friendly, accomplished and intelligent.

    None ever made any effort to proselytize me in any way. They were all just good guys and girls.

    I do know that their "missions" overseas are largely for the purpose of recruiting new Mormons -- and I do have a major problem with that.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/06/2007 at 12:52 AM.
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  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Those groups do their stuff openly -- they use the same Mormon scripture, retell the same tales, worship the same prophets.

    They espouse what they claim to be the fundamental orthodox interpretation of the true faith -- one that is without the artificial change wrought by the leadership in 19th Century in order for Utah to be admitted to the U.S.
    But because they claim to hold similar beliefs while they espouse major differences denounced by the Mormon church does not count them as Mormons any more than the CofE (Church of England) can be counted as Catholics.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Despite all that -- every Mormon I have ever met (maybe 10-15 in my very very long life) has been exceptionally friendly, accomplished and intelligent.

    None ever made any effort to prosyletize(?) me in any way. They were all just good guys and girls.
    I agree. This has been my experience as well.
  17. #57  
    I am in San Francisco and the Mormons do a lot of door-to-door proselytizing and approach people on public transportation, much more so than the Jehovah's Witness Watchtower folks. They all wear the Mormon uniform, dark trousers, short sleeve white shirt, black necktie, plastic nametag (Elder thusandsuch), and backpack full of Book of Mormon.

    All Mormon males are expected to go on missions for a year, usually around college or end of high school. Samoa and Idaho are heavily Mormon. Arizona and Nevada are more Mormon closer to Utah and I would imagine eastern and northern Oregon are influenced by the Idaho members. Illinois is where the faith started.

    I spent a week with the head of a Mormon mission and his family in a foreign country when I was in junior high. Every minute of every day was scheduled and micromanaged.

    I do not wish to join any "church" that actively recruits. Faith should be based on attraction rather than promotion.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    I do not wish to join any "church" that actively recruits. Faith should be based on attraction rather than promotion.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    You are dead set on this all Mormons come from Utah thing. You could do the numbers yourself. If you did you would find what I was able to find with Google:
    Not really, just looking for all that "diversity" you mentioned. Anyway, thanks but I’ll pass on checking your work this time. I never really had much time for trivial pursuit.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  20.    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Barye...just like old times .....I was not disputing that this happens with the GOP in any way, but my point was that the Dems are also "endlessly clever at massaging those messages within seemingly innocent subtext" as well. There is plenty of tit for tat to go around. Do you really want another one of my 4 page long shotgun bullet point lists showing equal guilt from both sides? Or are you willing to admit the Dems are not as innocent as all that?

    Hobbes -- just give me your 2 best counter examples of democrats doing something comparable (and not MoveOn either).

    And yes -- please no 4 page lists -- my staff just flat out refuses to do the neccesary Hobbes to Corsican translation for anything longer than a paragraph.

    Sadly its no longer as it was Hobbes -- they no longer fear me.

    I used to be able to take a few of them out back and shoot 1 or 2 to motivate the rest -- but its become so much harder to recruit replacements, what with Blackwater getting all the most ruthless gorillas nowadays.

    Sorry, I hope you understand ...
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/06/2007 at 04:17 AM.
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