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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Non sequitur. The question only asked about ethnicity, gender, and religion. That being said, I think the concept of 'race' falls under ethnicity anyway.
    You are right...Non sequitur but it is definitely relevant, pertinent, connected, and applicable toward this run for office.
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  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    People are all telling is what does or does not matter to them, but what do they think will matter to the electorate, the ones largely less principled than you.

    Surur
    I fear that everyone in this forum is too polite.

    Everyone here is too nice to say what they really feel. They’re not listening to their inner prejudices.

    Would it matter to me if Al Gore (or whoever is your ideal candidate) was a Mormon ?? That he was a devotee of a religion that believes that Jesus was an american, a religion that believes that there can be many gods ?? That sometimes believes in “plural” marriage ??

    Not much.

    As an atheist almost all religious devotion is somewhat suspect to me. A casual faith would not be especially worrisome.

    If he were though, an Evangelist (like Huckabee), someone whose beliefs could supercede logic and science -- someone that might think that man descended from Adam and Eve -- then it would be for me an insurmountable issue.

    Would it matter if he was Jewish ??

    Not much.

    I’d want to know that he’d not give too much unrestrained support to Israel -- but the logic of things are that he’d be tougher than have most previous administrations to compensate for any hint of divided loyalties.

    (and I might unconsciously also ascribe to him positive Jewish traits of intelligence etc.)

    Would it matter if he were a Moslem.

    It could, depending on whether his was a casual Saturday only kind of belief -- or if instead his wife wore a scarf, and that he prayed toward mecca several times a day.

    Would it matter to me if Al Gore was Hispanic ??

    Not much in the Richardson sense of that.

    But if his english had a spanish accent, if he grew up in a predominantly spanish cultural environment, if I thought it would make him overly sympathetic to illegal southern migration -- it would bother me significantly more.

    Would it matter to me if Al Gore was Asian ??

    No.

    That would be most emphatically true if he was the grandchild of immigrants. (I might have a small level of discomfort if he was the child of immigrants.) He would also likely benefit from my unconscious ascribition to him of positive Asian traits of intelligence, hard work, etc.)

    Would it matter to me if Al Gore was Black ??

    Not much in the Obama sense of that.

    Especially if Al was as intelligent and accomplished as Obama.

    But I would be unconsciously concerned that others were not as “noble” and “tolerant” as me. I might be worried that he’d not be elected because of other’s unspoken prejudices.


    Would it matter to me if Al Gore was a woman ??

    Not much.

    But it would bother me some.

    I would see Al’s kindness and intellect, and unconsciously ascribe to her, weakness.

    Softness and empathy in a male Presidential candidate is innately different from its expression from a woman Presidential candidate.

    For the female Al to get my confidence, she’d have to show a greater level of toughness. And perhaps ironically, I might not unconsciously ascribe to her the positive qualities that women have.
    Last edited by BARYE; 11/04/2007 at 02:57 PM.
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  3. #23  
    I subscribe to the Michael Caine approach to groups: Everyone is okay...except the Dutch!
    ;-)
  4. #24  
    If All Gore was an Agnostic Buddhist black Women , I'd be looking close at her campaign ! Actually when I see the "Buddhist" in print even that looks a little suspect . Religion is like bad porn : I can handle it i.e. Pick out the useful bits F.F. through the garbage - but it can really screw with with average citizen . .. But what i think is pretty irrelevant on this planet ... The Harris Pole found 90% of adults believe in God . 82% in Heaven . 69% believe in the Devil and in Hell ! Although that was taken last year . Still , I think any Politician to win the mass vote should probably Love all Races , practice all religions , be a member of a simple nuclear family with maybe 1 gay in-law . Oh and have lots of $$$$$ ! Hey how bout Cheney ?
  5. #25  
    Wow! All this open-mindedness has me feeling all warm and fuzzy inside. Sniff Sniff " I love you man"....

    Like others have stated, ethnicity and gender are largely irrelevant to me. When you’re in the minority, voting for someone ethnically different is a fact of life. So it wouldn’t be a new phenomena for me. Also, I don’t have a problem with women being in positions of authority. My mother was the first person I ever took orders from. She did a good job.

    That being said, I do have issues with religious beliefs. You see, I’m afraid of zealots. Zealots can do a lot of damage. Just look around the world. While I’m not opposed to a politician having religious beliefs, like moderateinny, I would want that person to be able to separate their personal religious views from his/her duties to protect the freedom's off all Americans. Including the freedom not to believe. I have to admit, I do have certain bias. I would not vote for a Moslem or Mormon. There are certain principals within those religions that I don't agree with.


    As an aside, for those hung up on the experience factor, specifically business, running a business and running a government are two different enterprises. I don’t think the founders had in mind that this democracy was to be run like a business. In fact it was set up deliberately to be inefficient. Hence, the checks and balances concept. Trying to be business like is what has led to many of the problems in this country. Free trade and fast track authority comes to mind.
    Last edited by Iago; 11/04/2007 at 02:56 PM.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Trying to be business like is what has led to many of the problems in this country. Free trade and fast track authority comes to mind.
    It's not the running it like a business part I have a problem with - it's the running it by and for big business that has proven so problematic.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    It's not the running it like a business part I have a problem with - it's the running it by and for big business that has proven so problematic.
    The problem of running it (government) by and for big business is the end result of not adhering to the constitutional checks and balances, i.e., “running it like a business.” As far as trade agreements, Congress has that power not the Executive. This is one reason why government agencies are just an extension of big business. And the guy you sent to Washington to represent you can’t be held easily accountable. Incidentally, it also leaves him with an awful lot of time on his hands. Time to pick up hookers, as well as time to play footsie in public restroom stalls.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  8. gojeda's Avatar
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    #28  
    Religion, race\ethnicity, and gender matter little here - although on the subject of gender, I fear that the fairer persuasion (as a whole, though there are exceptions) lacks the certain "toughness" to be president.

    So I guess gender is a bit of a stumbling block here.

    Truth be told, the only woman I have ever come across in the American political scene who was fit to be President was Jeane Kirkpatrick.
  9. #29  
    I find it interesting that the most commonly expressed biased view held against a candidate is religion. I could be wrong, but it seems like the ones most expressive are the ones who do not believe in religion. And from some of the statements the views may be based on some misconceptions, at least based on my knowledge which may be just as flawed or inaccurate as the person next to me.

    For me, I probably fall in line with this myself. First of all I am religious (as most of you probably know from discussions in the past). Sex and race have no bearing or thought for me in the least. Expressed (or avoidance of expressing) views, experience, actions (such as involvement in scandals), and the blanks in their platform that they stand on do matter to me.

    Religion is pretty much a non issue with me, with some exceptions. I know several (I mean a lot of) Mormons, many of who are very close to me. Their standards are high. Their family commitments and loyalty are strong. Their work ethic are often times superior (I have several who are employees of mine and are constantly the highest producers). And even though they live according to their beliefs, I have seen it time and again that they can separate it from their professional lives. From my personal experience I would not have an issue voting for a Mormon any more than I would voting for a Catholic, Baptist, or any other Christian denomination. I would have no problem with being Jewish either. I would have to admit that I don't know enough about Buddhist to know if it is a concern or not.

    If they were Muslim, I would have to be honest and say, it would not be an immediate non-vote, but I would be asking a lot more questions. Many of which would be for my education and many for my piece of mind. What faction, what ties, etc... I would have to educate myself on his views. I guess what my main concern would be is the published statements of beliefs of some radical Muslims factions of how Gov, Democracy, and God should be arranged and ran, in other words bringing Democracy and their religion at odds with each other.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 11/05/2007 at 05:05 AM.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I flat out will not vote for someone who makes their religion an issue in an election.
    What about those who make a candidate's religion an issue?

    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    One's religious views should not be used as a political tool.
    I agree and generally speaking (which my thoughts posted above) IMHO, religion should not be a tool to be used against a candidate as well.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I find it interesting that the most commonly expressed biased view held against a candidate is religion. I could be wrong, but it seems like the ones most expressive are the ones who do not believe in religion. And from some of the statements the views may be based on some misconceptions, at least based on my knowledge which may be just as flawed or inaccurate as the person next to me.

    For me, I probably fall in line with this myself. First of all I am religious (as most of you probably know from discussions in the past). Sex and race have no bearing or thought for me in the least. Expressed (or avoidance of expressing) views, experience, actions (such as involvement in scandals), and the blanks in their platform that they stand on do matter to me.

    Religion is pretty much a non issue with me, with some exceptions. I know several (I mean a lot of) Mormons, many of who are very close to me. Their standards are high. Their family commitments and loyalty are strong. Their work ethic are often times superior (I have several who are employees of mine and are constantly the highest producers). And even though they live according to their beliefs, I have seen it time and again that they can separate it from their professional lives. From my personal experience I would not have an issue voting for a Mormon any more than I would voting for a Catholic, Baptist, or any other Christian denomination. I would have no problem with being Jewish either. I would have to admit that I don't know enough about Buddhist to know if it is a concern or not.

    If they were Muslim, I would have to be honest and say, it would not be an immediate non-vote, but I would be asking a lot more questions. Many of which would be for my education and many for my piece of mind. What faction, what ties, etc... I would have to educate myself on his views. I guess what my main concern would be is the published statements of beliefs of some radical Muslims factions of how Gov, Democracy, and God should be arranged and ran, in other words bringing Democracy and their religion at odds with each other.
    Well you make a good point about questions regarding a Muslim candidate. I'd like to think I wouldn't care but in truth I would likely have more questions toward a Muslim candidate than any others. Much the same as I'd have more reservations about leaving my son (when he was a boy) late for school with a Catholic priests than I would if it were a female teacher at a public school.

    That said, if Obama were Muslim (as Fox News would like you to believe) it wouldn't take me long to realize my prejudices were unfounded. Sadly, we live in a country where I don't think that most Americans would arrive at the same place as many of us are claiming we would up here. Instead most of them won't vote for Obama not only because he is black, but because his name sounds Muslim.
  12.    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well you make a good point about questions regarding a Muslim candidate. I'd like to think I wouldn't care but in truth I would likely have more questions toward a Muslim candidate than any others. Much the same as I'd have more reservations about leaving my son (when he was a boy) late for school with a Catholic priests than I would if it were a female teacher at a public school.

    That said, if Obama were Muslim (as Fox News would like you to believe) it wouldn't take me long to realize my prejudices were unfounded. Sadly, we live in a country where I don't think that most Americans would arrive at the same place as many of us are claiming we would up here. Instead most of them won't vote for Obama not only because he is black, but because his name sounds Muslim.
    and the Roves of the GOP are endlessly clever at massaging those messages within seemingly innocent subtext
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  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    and the Roves of the GOP are endlessly clever at massaging those messages within seemingly innocent subtext
    You cannot, with an honest heart, say that is exclusive to the GOP. Can you?

    I would like to add another item that I take into consideration, but do not let it be the deciding factor, is party. --- This would certainly come with recognized exceptions like I could not see myself voting the candidate for the KOKINOS (Kill All the Kittens In the Name Of Satan) party under any circumstances (see again yet another religious bias). --- This is why I have no loyalty to a party. Blanket statements like this against one party while giving a totally free pass to the other party that does, or more true to the point is doing, the same exact thing leads to voting with blinders on...... Voting just because they are members of a certain party and not because they are the best candidate. I personally see this the same as voting just because one is sexiest, religion phobic, racist, etc....

    I probably average voting 70% Rep during most elections, because I have fewer disagreements with the candidates than the others. I have also voted a majority Dem during elections for the same reason.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    I was commenitng on the philosophy of the statement, which I think drives your voting choice.
    It does to an extent, but my voting choice is only going to have any impact where I'm registered to vote. That being said, its impact even there is negligible, since in most elections, I tend to vote for alternate party candidates who have slim chances in the first place due to the political system in place.
    I was an ironic...we take separation of church and state fairly serious, where in other countries, it's the exact opposite.
    I'm not convinced that we take separation of church and state that seriously in recent years.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by KStewart View Post
    You are right...Non sequitur but it is definitely relevant, pertinent, connected, and applicable toward this run for office.
    I'm sure it is for some, but it still is largely irrelevant to me, which is all I was answering to.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    What about those who make a candidate's religion an issue?
    Depends on the context. Are we talking about an anti-Catholic JFK type issue, or are we talking about a who thinks the Earth is only 6000 years old issue? The former type bothers me a bit. The latter I think is a legitimate issue.
    I agree and generally speaking (which my thoughts posted above) IMHO, religion should not be a tool to be used against a candidate as well.
    Care to cite an example?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. gojeda's Avatar
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    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Instead most of them won't vote for Obama not only because he is black, but because his name sounds Muslim.
    So what about the multitude of those (like, oh, I don't know - the black vote) who will vote for Obama because he IS black?
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    So what about the multitude of those (like, oh, I don't know - the black vote) who will vote for Obama because he IS black?
    Pardon me, I don’t mean to step on your never ending attempt to bait ny, ( here we go again) but I just have to ask you what is the point of your question? What of it? Everyone with a brain and WITHOUT an agenda knows prejudice or bias is a human condition shared by ALL of us. That's like being asked what about the multitude of Caucasians who will vote for good old Fred or any of the others? You know must of the candidates that skipped debates held by Hispanic and Black organizations? I would say yeah?? and your point is?
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  19. gojeda's Avatar
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Pardon me, I don’t mean to step on your never ending attempt to bait ny, ( here we go again) but I just have to ask you what is the point of your question? What of it? Everyone with a brain and WITHOUT an agenda knows prejudice or bias is a human condition shared by ALL of us. That's like being asked what about the multitude of Caucasians who will vote for good old Fred or any of the others? You know must of the candidates that skipped debates held by Hispanic and Black organizations? I would say yeah?? and your point is?
    It seems like you've answered your own question.

    The point is that race, per say, may not be the liability that some make it out to be.

    Obama has high likeability numbers (much higher than that of Hillary's). That means he has appeal across a varied section of the electorate. Add to that mix Obama's virtual lock on the black vote (which is something, not coicidentally, Hillary has been extra heavily campaigning for - more than any democrat candidate in recent memory) and you have a viable candidate in the eyes of many.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    It seems like you've answered your own question.

    The point is that race, per say, may not be the liability that some make it out to be.

    Obama has high likeability numbers (much higher than that of Hillary's). That means he has appeal across a varied section of the electorate. Add to that mix Obama's virtual lock on the black vote (which is something, not coicidentally, Hillary has been extra heavily campaigning for - more than any democrat candidate in recent memory) and you have a viable candidate in the eyes of many.
    Come now gojeda......most if not all polls have Obama trailing Hillary among black voters so there is no lock for Obama. Yeah he may be more likeable....but also beatable, which is why most repubilcans would love to see him get the nomination.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
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