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  1. #61  
    Bill Maher is a liberal of liberals?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2.    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Bill Maher is a liberal of liberals?
    Isn't he? I don't know...it seems the right is always invoking his name as a liberal nut case so I mentioned him.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Isn't he? I don't know...it seems the right is always invoking his name as a liberal nut case so I mentioned him.
    Well, while I do think he's probably a little too sympathetic to the Democrats in a pragmatic fashion, I've always thought he came off as a minimal government libertarian.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Taken alone, I would have to agree with you. However, it's my belief that congressional leaders have plans, which include measures such as this, to begin building the diplomatic bridges which have been destroyed over the past several years. The Azerbaijani president, Geidar Aliyev, who initially pledged to do "whatever it takes" to support a war on terror, was shown to have close ties with Al Queda and with his son, Ilham Aliyev 'selected' as the new president, not much has changed except how many more millions the US sends their Secret Police. Azerbaijan maintains very tense relations with Armenia, and Armenia has consistently been a genuine asset in this war. In my estimation, Congress is just beginning to understand and take appropriate actions to treat this war as a chess match versus the checkers game that has been played for 6 years.
    Well that very well may be. Iím certainly no scholar when it comes to Azerbaijan and Armeniaís geopolitics, but I do know BS when I see it. The timing exposes Pelosiís true political motive. Congress has had 90 years to pass a resolution on that issue. Now they find sanctimony at a moment in time when timing matters? It looks very disingenuous to me.

    Itís to bad brinksmanship has replaced statesmanship in Congress. There are so many other atrocities that have occurred, and that is in fact occurring right now. Iíd have more respect for her if she was talking about the abuses that are occurring now. Hell, just close your eyes and throw a dart at the map. What about the human rights abuses in Burma? Darfur? I suppose maybe weíll get around to Burma and Darfur in the next hundred years.(unless oil is discovered) Yes Pelosi is playing chess, but this move has left her exposed. The democrats may have just put themselves in checkmate..........again.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  5.    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Which leads to the possibility of a second motivation....Is this playing politics to force a troop withdrawal by trying to limit or eliminate the major supply routes to our troops engaged in active combat?
    If this proves to be true I'd be the first to campaign against her whenever I get the chance during my visits to my SV office.

    This is the sort of thing that keeps me registered as an independent! Just outrageously bad timing and truly inept leadership on her part.
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Well that very well may be. Iím certainly no scholar when it comes to Azerbaijan and Armeniaís geopolitics, but I do know BS when I see it. The timing exposes Pelosiís true political motive. Congress has had 90 years to pass a resolution on that issue. Now they find sanctimony at a moment in time when timing matters? It looks very disingenuous to me.
    Given that none of those in leadership are exactly neophytes, what else could be their motivation, outside of a lobbying effort by an Armenian interest group? Do I believe we have huge domestic issues that need immediate attention? Certainly. However, the congress is pragmatic enough, in my opinion, to realize that they have slim-to-no chance of orchestrating major changes with a 51-49 majority in the Senate and almost nonexistent Republican support. All the Senate approves will almost certainly be vetoed by Bush because they cannot obtain 60+ votes.

    Itís to bad brinksmanship has replaced statesmanship in Congress. There are so many other atrocities that have occurred, and that is in fact occurring right now. Iíd have more respect for her if she was talking about the abuses that are occurring now. Hell, just close your eyes and throw a dart at the map. What about the human rights abuses in Burma? Darfur? I suppose maybe weíll get around to Burma and Darfur in the next hundred years.(unless oil is discovered)
    I can't argue with you there, But, if the US makes it its business to police every single atrocity occurring worldwide which cannot be served by neighboring or international bodies, we may as well surrender now because no resources will remain for domestic issues. It's a slippery slope and it's difficult, at best, to adequately satisfy all interests. Where all this is concerned, from my perspective, is where is State? Speeches do not move mountains.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    where is State? Speeches do not move mountains.

    True....True....nor does flying all over the world perfecting the Miss America wave.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  8. #68  
    Here is a follow up store adding to unbelievable timing of the Turkey Resolution that is being sought by Pelosi right now. Again, I am trying to keep an open mind, but the ramifications of the timing of this resolution seems to point to playing politics with our troops:

    Pentagon Plans for Alternate Supply Routes If Turkey Restricts Access
    U.S. Military Expects Warning If Turkey Invades Iraq
    U.S. military officials have said they believe they will get some type of warning if the Turks launch an incursion into Iraq against the rebel Kurdistan Workers' Party, or PKK. For years, the United States has routinely had military representatives with the Turkish armed forces.

    The United States has consistently argued against a Turkish offensive, pushing instead for a broader diplomatic solution between Iraq and Turkey over the problem of the rebel PKK.

    But of equal concern, however, is what impact the congressional resolution will have on U.S. military supply routes that have been used recently to move much-needed armored vehicles to troops in Iraq.

    The House Foreign Affairs Committee this week passed a resolution labeling the World War I-era killings of up to 1.5 million Armenians by Ottoman Turks genocide. Turkey has argued that the toll has been inflated and the killings were the result of civil war and unrest.

    Turkish authorities have not said whether further congressional action would prompt Turkey to shut down Incirlik air base in southern Turkey, a major hub for U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. Turkey's Mediterranean port of Iskenderun is also used to ferry goods to American troops.

    --------------


    One key impact could be on the delivery of mine-resistant ambush-protected vehicles (MRAPs) that the Pentagon has been trying to rush to Iraq. The vehicles give troops better protection against roadside bombs.


    -------------

    There also have been concerns that Turkey may cut off military contracts with the U.S.

    FULL STORY
  9.    #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Here is a follow up store adding to unbelievable timing of the Turkey Resolution that is being sought by Pelosi right now. Again, I am trying to keep an open mind, but the ramifications of the timing of this resolution seems to point to playing politics with our troops:
    Well source aside (Fox News), I still cannot believe they are going to go through with this vote. Hopefully the thing falls short in votes....and the Dems toss her a$$ out as speaker if they hold the house in 08.
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well source aside (Fox News),
    To help you out with your Fox-News-Phobia (the original source was MSNBC), here are additional sources that maybe more to your personal liking :

    ..........
    Pelosi says she'll press on with Armenian 'genocide' resolution



    ..........
    Turkey Takes Step Toward Iraq Operation



    ..........
    Isolation Won’t Heal Turkey’s Wounds



    ..........
    Pelosi Says Bush Hasn’t Phoned Her About Turkey and Genocide

    But when George Stephanopoulos asked the key question – how would she react if Mr. Bush or Defense Secretary Robert Gates called her to say that they were “just certain that this is going to put our military at risk” – she replied: “The president hasn’t called me on it, so that’s hypothetical. He hasn’t called me on it.”
    Turkish General Warns U.S. on Resolution



    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I still cannot believe they are going to go through with this vote. Hopefully the thing falls short in votes....and the Dems toss her a$$ out as speaker if they hold the house in 08.
    I fully agree!!!
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 10/15/2007 at 05:02 PM.
  11.    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    LOL. Thanks. I don't think that will quite get me over my phobia but the alternative sources are appreciated.
  12. #72  
    Why is it being conveniently overlooked that this vote, by the House Foreign Affairs committee (not even a vote of the full House) was of a nonbinding resolution? This 'story' is being grossly and wildly misinterpreted. Blog [Op-Ed] reports don't exactly substitute for news either.
    Last edited by lifes2short; 10/15/2007 at 10:37 PM.
  13. #73  
    When Turkey is threatening the possibility of cutting off or restricting our lines of providing supplies to the troops in the field engaged in active combat and moving troops in and out of the region....talking about the possibility of closing our military base there....denying us free airspace to fly threw.....threatens the possibility of reducing military ties while there is a possibility of attacking Iraq......then yes it becomes a big deal, no matter if it is nonbinding or not.

    The nonbinding-ness of the resolution is a moot point anyways as congress does not have any control or authority over Turkey. The only other thing they could do is cut Turkey off from our end.....again cutting off our main source of supply routes and troop transportation routes and the most supportive allie we have in the region.
  14. #74  
    This is the same Turkey which refused to allow the US to use its airspace in 2003, allowing Saddam loyalists to escape to the north?

    The same loyalists who created the guerilla war currently being waged with 3800+ (to date) US service members dead?

    The same Turkey who still has 43,000 troops illegally in Cyprus?

    The same Turkey who has ethnically cleansed Greek Cypriots and continues to maintain an apartheid regime preventing 200,000 Cypriots from returning to their homes?

    The same Turkey which massacred 6,000 Cypriots in a single attack, including those tortured to death?

    The same Turkey who raped over 1000 Cypriot women, aged 12 to 78?

    The same Turkey who has flaunted 120 United Nations and Security Council resolutions and those sanctioned by the European Court of Human Rights?

    The same Turkey who has the hypocritical nerve to desire EU membership?

    Sounds exactly like a US ally to me who should be protected at all costs!
  15.    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    This is the same Turkey which refused to allow the US to use its airspace in 2003, allowing Saddam loyalists to escape to the north?

    The same loyalists who created the guerilla war currently being waged with 3800+ (to date) US service members dead?

    The same Turkey who still has 43,000 troops illegally in Cyprus?

    The same Turkey who has ethnically cleansed Greek Cypriots and continues to maintain an apartheid regime preventing 200,000 Cypriots from returning to their homes?

    The same Turkey which massacred 6,000 Cypriots in a single attack, including those tortured to death?

    The same Turkey who raped over 1000 Cypriot women, aged 12 to 78?

    The same Turkey who has flaunted 120 United Nations and Security Council resolutions and those sanctioned by the European Court of Human Rights?

    The same Turkey who has the hypocritical nerve to desire EU membership?

    Sounds exactly like a US ally to me who should be protected at all costs!
    Be that as it may, the timing of this legislation or even to re-examine our relationship with Turkey is not now. They are an ally that is critical to supplying our troops and this is not the way to end the war as it will have a direct and dire effect on our troops. This is very different than passing legislation that reduces spending and eventually cutting off funds to the war since anything like that would still provide ample time to plan an exit (despite what the GOP will tell you). If Turkey cuts off our supply lines into Iraq the war will be considerably undermined, however, Pelosi will absolutely be putting our troops in considerable jeopardy and that is not acceptable.

    Trust me - if this thing goes through the Dems will have handed the GOP a golden ticket to reclaim both houses in 2008. And frankly, no matter how badly the war was screwed up to date or the shaky premise to which we entered it is, the American people remember our boys dying due to the sudden loss of critical supplies and the Dems will be to blame for that.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Be that as it may, the timing of this legislation or even to re-examine our relationship with Turkey is not now. They are an ally that is critical to supplying our troops and this is not the way to end the war as it will have a direct and dire effect on our troops. This is very different than passing legislation that reduces spending and eventually cutting off funds to the war since anything like that would still provide ample time to plan an exit (despite what the GOP will tell you). If Turkey cuts off our supply lines into Iraq the war will be considerably undermined, however, Pelosi will absolutely be putting our troops in considerable jeopardy and that is not acceptable.
    That's one good reason why State must be much more robust than it is rather than taking hardline political sides. Also, last I looked, Pelosi is not a member of the House Foreign Affairs committee nor does she control their agenda. Since Ron Paul did not cast a vote on this resolution, has he made any statements about it?

    This all may be true, however, however, it's in Turkey's economic interest to maintain their gravytrain relationship with the US. Given Turkey's historical tendencies, they will use this as leverage in successfully negotiating even sweeter deals with the US.

    Trust me - if this thing goes through the Dems will have handed the GOP a golden ticket to reclaim both houses in 2008. And frankly, no matter how badly the war was screwed up to date or the shaky premise to which we entered it is, the American people remember our boys dying due to the sudden loss of critical supplies and the Dems will be to blame for that.
    If and when the resolution hits the full House for a vote, given all the kneejerk reactions to accurately underscoring Turkey's history, the resolution will be DOA anyway. The political downside for voting it down for Dems is a blackeye which only aggravates the already low approval rating Congress has.

    Turkey is only going to be rewarded as the political victim on this issue, at this point, and that is morally reprehensible. Allowing Turkey a free-pass just because we negotiated no logistical choices outside them is not a good excuse for moral leadership nor does the domestic response to this resolution show the US to have moral clarity, in a time of war or not. A more thorough understanding of this worldwide chess match should've been taken into account rather than pigeonholing our logistical options.
  17.    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    The political downside for voting it down for Dems is a blackeye which only aggravates the already low approval rating Congress has.
    You say "voting it down", I say "bringing it up to begin with" - we can agree the Dems will pay a price for this.

    It's a matter of picking your battles to me. And much the same as I think Iraq was the wrong battle (war) conducted at the wrong time, I feel the Dems timing on this battle with Turkey - as morally justifiable as you think it may be - is very very bad.

    Can you honestly not think of better ways to reestablish our moral authority? You're a smart guy - I bet you can think of 5 things off the top of your head the Dems can be doing to reestablish our moral authority, can't you? Certainly seems that Pelosi cannot.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    You say "voting it down", I say "bringing it up to begin with" - we can agree the Dems will pay a price for this.
    Agreed with this distinction from my point of view: If Dems pass the nonpunitive resolution in the House and if/when Turkey gets a grip and stops its traditional reactionary roleplaying, we'll be right back here with no harm done. Just my opinion and not intended to belabor the point.

    It's a matter of picking your battles to me. And much the same as I think Iraq was the wrong battle (war) conducted at the wrong time, I feel the Dems timing on this battle with Turkey - as morally justifiable as you think it may be - is very very bad.

    Can you honestly not think of better ways to reestablish our moral authority? You're a smart guy - I bet you can think of 5 things off the top of your head the Dems can be doing to reestablish our moral authority, can't you? Certainly seems that Pelosi cannot.
    Just as you very well said, it's a matter of picking battles. To list a Top-5 or 10 or whatever when considering all that has gone wrong domestically since the GOP/Scaife/Rove determined that a slash-and-burn, win-at-all-costs agenda was Priority#1 for America's "interests", I'd have to give that some serious consideration. It would be a good topic for a new thread that considers domestic and foreign affairs and how they relate to each other. I'd be willing to take bets on how many posts it takes until the grand attempts to trash the thread begins.
  19.    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    I'd be willing to take bets on how many posts it takes until the grand attempts to trash the thread begins.
    I'm not taking that bet.
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Is anyone really surpised by any of this? Didn't anyone forsee this futile wheel-spinning that was about to descend on the country like a bad case of the clap as soon as she took the gavel?

    If there was any doubt before, it should be put to rest now that this is a symptom of Pelosi, and her party, not having a platform to speak of aside being anti-Bush.

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