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  1. gojeda's Avatar
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    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    When he said they could come and take it from him and his "American" knife?
    I believe he was talking to the camera. Was he threatening the camera? Did he utter a word to the two Mexicans in the piece?

    He *might* (and that is a big might) have said something to them while he was looking at them on his way to the flag pole, but he certainly did not brandish a knife.

    Sounds like you were looking at another video.

    Do you not think the shop owner/worker looked cowed?
    So far as I can gather, there were two Mexicans in the piece. How do you know either of them was the owner? How do you know they weren't partrons who stepped outside for a breath of fresh air? Did they wear name tags?

    The only moment they looked cowed when the news crew asked them a question in English. That would have forced them to answer in English, which they obviously had little knowledge of.

    The poor bugger was probably just trying to fit in by flying the flag anyway...
    To apply an analogy:

    If he was trying to use the "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" approach, I would say that flying the flag of the Greeks is not the way to go.

    and knew nothing about your odd law (after all, isn't it your constitutional right to burn the thing as "free speech" or something?)
    And thus comes the self-defeating position of those who believe that flag desecration is a first amendment right:

    Usually, those who burn the flag make a big production out of it and say (in generice terms) they are protesting the country in one way or the other.

    When you bring them into court, their tune changes and they essentially say what you had said previously in the thread, saying that they are burning "a piece of cloth".

    The natural question to that response would be, "So why you are burning a piece of cloth in front of the cameras?"

    "Because I am protesting the country!"

    So the position doesn't particularly make sense. How can a piece of cloth just be a piece of cloth in the courtroom, but the same piece of cloth act as a means of protest against the country in the streets?

    It doesn't work that way, and it shows the disingenuousness of the "right to desecrate group". They want to have their cake and eat it too.

    Either the flag is a piece of cloth or the flag is the symbol that represents the country. One cannot change its significance willy-nilly when the situation suits them.
    Last edited by gojeda; 10/08/2007 at 03:47 AM.
  2. tirk's Avatar
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    #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Sounds like you were looking at another video.
    You really have no idea how ignorant, bullying and racist this video comes across outside the US do you?
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  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Either the flag is a piece of cloth or the flag is the symbol that represents the country. One cannot change its significance willy-nilly when the situation suits them.
    To me the flag is supposed to be a symbol of a country with freedoms, including incidentally, the freedom to burn the flag. Freedom of speech is not measured by the forms allowed, but rather by the forms prohibited. I'd also wonder where that flag was made.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    To me the flag is supposed to be a symbol of a country with freedoms, including incidentally, the freedom to burn the flag. Freedom of speech is not measured by the forms allowed, but rather by the forms prohibited. I'd also wonder where that flag was made.
    Well said Toby. Although I don't know if this shop owner was flying this flag incorrectly as a form of free speech or expression.

    My interpretation of this whole thing is that he is an immigrant that owns a store and is displaying both flags out of pride: proud of his heritage as well as proud of being an American. I don't think he had a clue about how to properly fly a flag. The way I look at it - at least the guy was making an attempt to even fly the thing to begin with. Who hasn't seen worse displays of the American flag, by native born American's no less?

    As gung ho as this vet was in the film thinking he was making a statement about immigrants and "whose country it is"; to me it is a statement of ignorance and intollerance and is truly misguided at the very least. The man could have just explained to the guy how to properly fly a flag and if that failed he could have then taken it up with the town police.

    But I'm sure the red necks are circulating this video with a "f$cking eh...that'll learn em'" attitude about it all...and in the end, here we all are talking about it so I guess if the guy wanted to draw attention to improper flag displaying methods I guess he succeeded in that.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 10/08/2007 at 10:50 AM.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Although I don't know if this shop owner was flying this flag incorrectly as a form of free speech or expression.
    I'd wager simple ignorance is more to blame. I'd put this in the same category as businesses leaving the flag flying at night unlit, or people with the car window flags in tatters.
    Who hasn't seen worse displays of the American flag, by native born American's no less?
    Most people don't have a clue about proper flag etiquette. Generally I find only two classes of people have a clue, former scouts and former military. Most others simply think having a flag makes them patriotic at best, or are simply doing it out of peer pressure at worst.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I'd wager simple ignorance is more to blame. I'd put this in the same category as businesses leaving the flag flying at night unlit, or people with the car window flags in tatters.

    Most people don't have a clue about proper flag etiquette. Generally I find only two classes of people have a clue, former scouts and former military. Most others simply think having a flag makes them patriotic at best, or are simply doing it out of peer pressure at worst.
    I completely agree.

    It seems obvious the guy with the knife felt he was making a statement about whose country this is and all that sort of thing. It's rather odd that the guy never stopped to think that this immigrant is clearly trying to fit in and has his own business (meaning he is gainfully employed) vs. being someone that "hates America" and/or is welching off the system.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I'd wager simple ignorance is more to blame. I'd put this in the same category as businesses leaving the flag flying at night unlit, or people with the car window flags in tatters.
    Agreed 100%.

    Most people don't have a clue about proper flag etiquette. Generally I find only two classes of people have a clue, former scouts and former military. Most others simply think having a flag makes them patriotic at best, or are simply doing it out of peer pressure at worst.
    As alienated as immigrants might have become over the past several years, I can understand how they may, for assimilation purposes, take extra measures to blend in. If this American vigilante had chosen to have a rational dialogue with the store owner rather than playing ramrod-cowboy, his cause may have been helped rather than grossly undermined, as it was.

    If this had been a shop owned and flag raised by anyone other than Latinos, this wouldn't have been a story. Tempest ... Meet your teapot!
  8. gojeda's Avatar
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    #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    You really have no idea how ignorant, bullying and racist this video comes across outside the US do you?
    Ignorant? Yes, clearly the shop owner was ignorant of the flag laws in this country, which is why I made the point that the police should have handled the matter.

    Bullying? Perhaps if the gentleman were waving the knife in their face, I'd agree.

    Racist? I did not know flags were racist. I thought they were a piece of cloth. Is not that what we are supposed to believe?

    I further remark that what happened on the video is hardly on the same plane as, say, French anti-Algerian sentiment, the overt racism one sees in Germany as a routine occurence, the treatment of Catholics by Britain in Northern Island, or the stories of true racism from our South.

    I say mate, was not an aide from associated with one your Tory MPs recently suspended for posting racist pictures on Facebook?

    Last edited by gojeda; 10/08/2007 at 06:27 PM.
  9. gojeda's Avatar
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    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    To me the flag is supposed to be a symbol of a country with freedoms, including incidentally, the freedom to burn the flag. Freedom of speech is not measured by the forms allowed, but rather by the forms prohibited. I'd also wonder where that flag was made.
    To which I agree, which makes flag burner advocate's position shaky as they seem to say that it is my right to burn a piece of cloth - at least in front of a judge.
  10. tirk's Avatar
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    I further remark that what happened on the video is hardly on the same plane as, say, French anti-Algerian sentiment, the overt racism one sees in Germany as a routine occurence, the treatment of Catholics by Britain in Northern Island, or the stories of true racism from our South.

    I say mate, was not an aide from associated with one your Tory MPs recently suspended for posting racist pictures on Facebook?
    And these justify it how? Because lots of other people have been/are racist, you can be too perhaps?

    Oh, and...

    I say mate...
    Add patronising to the list.
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  11. gojeda's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    And these justify it how? Because lots of other people have been/are racist, you can be too perhaps?
    The point was if you thought you observed racism in the video, it can be said you have not the foggiest notion of what racism is.

    An American, in a fit of nationalistic fervor, misplaced or not, racism does not make.

    Playing the race card, like you did in this thread, is disingenuous.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    The point was if you thought you observed racism in the video, it can be said you have not the foggiest notion of what racism is.

    An American, in a fit of nationalistic fervor, misplaced or not, racism does not make.

    Playing the race card, like you did in this thread, is disingenuous.
    Again, if the store had been owned and represented by Swedes, the same American Gladiator, assuming his IQ is somewhere to the north of 50, would've had a reasonable conversation with the owner. Thinly-veiled or not, racism is at the heart of this issue, as this little tantrum has nothing to do with illegal immigration nor any other issue.
  13. gojeda's Avatar
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    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Again, if the store had been owned and represented by Swedes, the same American Gladiator, assuming his IQ is somewhere to the north of 50, would've had a reasonable conversation with the owner. Thinly-veiled or not, racism is at the heart of this issue, as this little tantrum has nothing to do with illegal immigration nor any other issue.
    I think you are assuming too much and forming an opinion based in the realm of speculation.

    Instead of "guessing" what a person might or might not do in a given situation, or "guessing" what the Swedes might do, I'll stick to what has actually transpired.

    Also, I've noticed a recurring theme on this forum, basically by one or two people, who seem fall back on the usual dismissal of a person by calling them "stupid" when the party in question acts in a way contrary to how they would have handled the situation.

    In this case, this man has been called (among other things) a racist, stupid, ignorant, a bully and an ***** with an IQ of less than 50.

    ....yet not a word about the fact that a federal law was also broken here.

    It seems those who like to preach "understanding" only do so when convenient.

    Aside from the fact that these little hate-fests are boring, they are also intellectually lazy and puerile. To each his own, I suppose.
  14. #54  
    Please see the first half of Post #47 regarding your 'federal crime' statement.
  15. gojeda's Avatar
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    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Please see the first half of Post #47 regarding your 'federal crime' statement.
    I don't think ignorance is an excuse to break the law. And mind you, I agree with the sentiment that there was nothing malicious going on here (on the part of the bar owner).

    That being said, law enforcement officers, who should have been used in this situation IMO, would have made a value judgement and acted accordingly. My guess is that police would have informed the owner about the law and have the owner remedy the situation. That would have been the end of it.

    By the way, as an aside, there is also an interview of the gentleman who cut down the flag via a link on that same page. He claims, vaguely, that authorities knew what was going on, but did not know how to act. I am not sure that explanation flies because federal law is very explicit here, so I take his comments with a grain of salt.
  16. #56  
    Doesn't USA flag etiquette also preclude using it on clothing or as any form of decoration? Yet that happens all the time nowadays.

    Wikipedia claims there is no penalty for not following the flag code, even if it is federal law, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States, if that's correct then the 'vigilante' was definitely acting unlawfully by stealing and damaging their property and thus penalising them. He comes across as a thief and a bully to me.
  17. #57  
    To answer the leading question of this thread, "How much do you love your country", my answer is as follows:

    1) Enough to die for it; and

    2) Enough to discipline it in order for its highest ideals to be maintained uncompromised and its domestic potential to be fully realized.
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