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  1.    #1  
    on PBS? What did you think of it?

    It sure was a different world back then. 4000 soldiers killed to take just a hill ... No troop rotation for 2+ years of constant trauma..

    Can we go through that sort of thing again?
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  2. #2  
    I've watched the 1st two episodes -- the rest have been DVRed, and I'll watch them as I can ...

    War was simpler when you were up against murderous merciless foes -- nations who had begun the fight by first attacking and declaring war against us, and that would have shown us no compassion had they been victorious.

    It was also a war in which our enemies wore uniforms, and where we fought in part on behalf of people who were genuinely grateful when we liberated them.

    And we also had the good fortune to have a President whose primary objective was winning a war -- not enhancing his political party.
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  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I've watched the 1st two episodes -- the rest have been DVRed, and I'll watch them as I can ...

    War was simpler when you were up against murderous merciless foes -- nations who had begun the fight by first attacking and declaring war against us, and that would have shown us no compassion had they been victorious.

    It was also a war in which our enemies wore uniforms, and where we fought in part on behalf of people who were genuinely grateful when we liberated them.

    And we also had the good fortune to have a President whose primary objective was winning a war -- not enhancing his political party.
    Well said. Although I would argue Bush wants to win this war...his legacy depends on it.

    I've been Tivo-ing it since it started but probably won't get to see it until I return from Europe. Although it may be neat to dump to my laptop as I'm sure it would beat the crap offered on the in-flight entertainment system on NWA!
  4.    #4  
    It is also clear that the nation (and the world) is not sold on the necessity of this war (compared to The War).

    Back then, there was no _need_ for soldiers to rotate out after 12 months. 6 million servicemen took part. There was draft, but people also lined up at the recruiting stations and lied about their age so that they did not miss out on the action.

    Now, we cannot have 200,000 troops active even if we needed them in some theater of war.
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  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    It is also clear that the nation (and the world) is not sold on the necessity of this war (compared to The War).

    Back then, there was no _need_ for soldiers to rotate out after 12 months. 6 million servicemen took part. There was draft, but people also lined up at the recruiting stations and lied about their age so that they did not miss out on the action.

    Now, we cannot have 200,000 troops active even if we needed them in some theater of war.
    Were there many mercenaries being paid $1000/day back then to be a part of the coalition of the willing ??
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    #6  
    Ken Burns was on with Conan and gave a great behind the scenes view as to how they approached it, He mentioned that 1000 ww2 vets are dying evey day, he also mentioned that for some of these, this was the first time they have ever talked about it, not even to their famalies
  7. morrie's Avatar
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    #7  
    ken burns did a marvelous job on this series, just like the work he did on the civil war. everyone should watch the reruns or get it on dvd.
    morris stalk
  8. gojeda's Avatar
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    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    on PBS? What did you think of it?

    It sure was a different world back then. 4000 soldiers killed to take just a hill ... No troop rotation for 2+ years of constant trauma..

    Can we go through that sort of thing again?
    No. I think if the US of today had to face the Germans of 1941, they would have eaten us alive.

    They are called "The Greatest Generation" for a reason.

    Lamentably, the US has become intellectually neutered by brainless the brainless pop culture that doesn't promote an sort of self-accountability, but titilation instead. We have become a stupid, insular nation.

    Take a walk through almost any graduate school in the nation, and the proof is right there.
  9. gojeda's Avatar
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by morrie View Post
    ken burns did a marvelous job on this series, just like the work he did on the civil war. everyone should watch the reruns or get it on dvd.
    I have not seen it yet, though I suspect that if he did as good a job on The War as what he did with the Civil War and Baseball, it is going to be a must see.
  10. gojeda's Avatar
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Were there many mercenaries being paid $1000/day back then to be a part of the coalition of the willing ??
    WWI and WWII campaigns in North Africa and Suez region?
    Foreign Legions?
    30 Years War?
    TE Lawrence?

    Anyone? Bueller?

    I cursory review of wars past would reveal that mercernaries were present, in numbers big or small, in almost all of them -and were used by the good and bad guy in ways big and small.

    As the very astute Machiavelli once said, "Where there is gold and blood, there are the Swiss."

    A particularly salient message in regards to the current efforts in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
    Last edited by gojeda; 10/03/2007 at 02:41 PM.
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    No. I think if the US of today had to face the Germans of 1941, they would have eaten us alive.

    They are called "The Greatest Generation" for a reason.

    Lamentably, the US has become intellectually neutered by brainless the brainless pop culture that doesn't promote an sort of self-accountability, but titilation instead. We have become a stupid, insular nation.

    Take a walk through almost any graduate school in the nation, and the proof is right there.

    Seems like back in the WWII days, we all shared more of the war burden. Nowadays, it seems like as long as you put a yellow sticker on your SUV, you've done your part.

    Nowadays also, there is this legion of young chickenhawks who are so very pro-war, and stress so much how important a war is. At the same time, they dont feel the need to risk their own necks or stand up for their own beliefs. Instead they have this expectation that other people should fight their wars and carry the burden for them. Like in this video:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

    So when you say lack of accountability with young people in school today, thats what comes to my mind.

    By the way, from what I have seen of the War, it looks great. I definitely will buy the dvd when it comes out.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Seems like back in the WWII days, we all shared more of the war burden. Nowadays, it seems like as long as you put a yellow sticker on your SUV, you've done your part.

    Nowadays also, there is this legion of young chickenhawks who are so very pro-war, and stress so much how important a war is. At the same time, they dont feel the need to risk their own necks or stand up for their own beliefs. Instead they have this expectation that other people should fight their wars and carry the burden for them. Like in this video:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

    So when you say lack of accountability with young people in school today, thats what comes to my mind.

    By the way, from what I have seen of the War, it looks great. I definitely will buy the dvd when it comes out.
    Nice to see you posting again Cell. I can't thank you enough for the work you doing patching up our broken troops coming home from Iraq.

    Folks, here is a guy who could have practiced private medicine and probably done quite well for himself if he were in it only for the money. Instead he chose to help our wounded troops when they come home. Class act.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Seems like back in the WWII days, we all shared more of the war burden. Nowadays, it seems like as long as you put a yellow sticker on your SUV, you've done your part.

    Nowadays also, there is this legion of young chickenhawks who are so very pro-war, and stress so much how important a war is. At the same time, they dont feel the need to risk their own necks or stand up for their own beliefs. Instead they have this expectation that other people should fight their wars and carry the burden for them. Like in this video:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

    So when you say lack of accountability with young people in school today, thats what comes to my mind.

    By the way, from what I have seen of the War, it looks great. I definitely will buy the dvd when it comes out.
    Thanks for the link cellmatrix. In a word...... pathetic
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
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  14.    #14  
    What type of event will it take to get the nation in the same mood as after Pearl Harbor? Is that even possible any more?

    If, after 9/11, the Pres. had made one of the Rooseveltian speech, started a draft and launched a full-scale war involving 1 million troops (not that I'm saying that he should have), would we have accepted it?

    I think, no. So an attack like 9/11 won't do it. I doubt that anything will. And, if we do go to war, the troops won't be treated like cannon fodder like they sometimes were in WW2 and WW1.

    One thing that was not covered in the TV serial was the political atmosphere in Congress during the War. What were the Republican opposition saying? Was there any domestic opposition to our role in the War?
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  15. #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    What type of event will it take to get the nation in the same mood as after Pearl Harbor? Is that even possible any more?

    If, after 9/11, the Pres. had made one of the Rooseveltian speech, started a draft and launched a full-scale war involving 1 million troops (not that I'm saying that he should have), would we have accepted it?

    I think, no. So an attack like 9/11 won't do it. I doubt that anything will. And, if we do go to war, the troops won't be treated like cannon fodder like they sometimes were in WW2 and WW1.

    One thing that was not covered in the TV serial was the political atmosphere in Congress during the War. What were the Republican opposition saying? Was there any domestic opposition to our role in the War?
    I thought enlistments skyrocketed after 9/11? I don't know about a million, but I do think the nation as a whole stood as one when we went into Afghanistan. I certainly backed our leadership then and how quickly we mobilized and deployed over there (then again, I think a Gore administration would have acted the same had 9/11 happened on his watch). So I actually think the increase in enlistments was commensurate with the new type of war we found ourselves in on 9/12 - that is a war with no uniforms, a disparate enemy, no real state to speak of, and most importantly high-tech warfare that means we don't need a million people anymore. All in all we did react as a nation swiftly and with our military might occupied Afghanistan in short order.

    Another thing to consider is the nature of the combat itself. We live in a time of video-game warfare and the occupation of a foe can occur in days/weeks vs. months/years. So unlike 1941 we can find out in real time how the war is going and how quickly we've "won". As soon as we kicked the Taliban out the nation seemed to breath a collective sigh...even though the mission was not done. Which dove tailed very nicely for those wanting to invade Iraq: we just mopped up the Taliban (or so we were told) and had troops "over there instead of over here" so why not go kick some more Arab a$$?

    I'm not condoning anything either way, but the two wars couldn't be any different nor could the times. In short, I have more faith in America in that I think we did repond as a country - not one party vs. another - in Afghanistan and if we were attacked again I have no doubt we'd do it again. A million new recruits? Probably not but I hardly think that is indicative of America's resolve when "real" threats do arise.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 10/03/2007 at 07:47 PM.
  16.    #16  
    We did a good and quick job in Afghanistan.. with very few losses (compared to WW2, for sure). But our over-reliance on local warlords, who change affiliation as they feel, may have lead to longer term uncertainty in Afghanistan.

    Even after 9/11, there was a tendency (and rightly so) to limit the casualty numbers. I did not get the feeling after watching The War that that was the case back then.

    Maybe high tech air war technology has changed this forever.
    --
    Aloke
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  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    We did a good and quick job in Afghanistan.. with very few losses (compared to WW2, for sure). But our over-reliance on local warlords, who change affiliation as they feel, may have lead to longer term uncertainty in Afghanistan.

    Even after 9/11, there was a tendency (and rightly so) to limit the casualty numbers. I did not get the feeling after watching The War that that was the case back then.

    Maybe high tech air war technology has changed this forever.
    Oh don't get me wrong...we frigged it up once we got in there and occupied it. But in terms of the resolve of the nation I believe it was there just as it was in WWII. Very very different times though so its really hard to compare apples to apples. But when you hear talk about our lack of resolve compared to WWII I think its pure hogwash. We were united as a nation and the world backed us when we went into Afghanistan. It wasn't until we started gunning for Iraq that all of that good will started to erode.

    I guess my point is - whatever your political affiliations - American's have and will continue to rise to the occassion when the going gets tough. We did it in WWII and we did it in Afghanistan. Iraq is not a good measuring stick to be using to gauge America's will to take on a real enemy in a real war IMO....anymore than Vietnam was.
  18. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    WWI and WWII campaigns in North Africa and Suez region?
    Foreign Legions?
    30 Years War?
    TE Lawrence?

    Anyone? Bueller?

    I cursory review of wars past would reveal that mercernaries were present, in numbers big or small, in almost all of them -and were used by the good and bad guy in ways big and small.

    As the very astute Machiavelli once said, "Where there is gold and blood, there are the Swiss."

    A particularly salient message in regards to the current efforts in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
    now admittedly as I earlier wrote I have not yet seen the entire series -- but which part of "The War" does Mr. Burns delve into TE Lawrence's gay adventures in the deserts of Arabia ??

    I've perhaps missed his explorations of the 30 yrs war (is that the struggle of the Christian Right against the US??)

    I apologize for my being new this at this kind of thing -- but could you please refer me to the Wikipedia article that talks about the American Army using paid mercenaries during WWI and WWII ??

    I'm sure you're right -- I just can't find any mention of it ...

    (oh --and if you are going to mention the Flying Tigers -- I think they flew on behalf of the Chinese)
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  19.    #19  
    Yes, Afghanistan war was well-executed. After the fall of Taliban, we should have flooded that country with troops, aid, and reconstruction.

    Anyone know how the Republican minority was behaving during WW2? What was the political climate like those days?
    --
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  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    Yes, Afghanistan war was well-executed. After the fall of Taliban, we should have flooded that country with troops, aid, and reconstruction.

    Anyone know how the Republican minority was behaving during WW2? What was the political climate like those days?
    I think maybe they were fans of der Fuhrer and Il Duce.

    I know they did everything they could to keep us from helping either the English or the Soviets. (virulently opposing FDR's lendlease program for instance).

    They would have been glad to SELL anything to the highest bidder though -- especially were it in gold -- irrespective of whose teeth the filling came out of...
    Last edited by BARYE; 10/03/2007 at 10:55 PM.
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