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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Seems like back in the WWII days, we all shared more of the war burden. Nowadays, it seems like as long as you put a yellow sticker on your SUV, you've done your part.

    Nowadays also, there is this legion of young chickenhawks who are so very pro-war, and stress so much how important a war is. At the same time, they dont feel the need to risk their own necks or stand up for their own beliefs. Instead they have this expectation that other people should fight their wars and carry the burden for them. Like in this video:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

    So when you say lack of accountability with young people in school today, thats what comes to my mind.
    ..
    I probably should reference a video along the same line done by BARYE a while back. (full screen version)

    The relevant "Chickenhawk" part starts about 3 minutes in, should anyone begin to get antsy.

    Oh -- and the war veteran who is at the center of the piece is John Bruhns -- 2 years after me. (was Oliver Stone's interview better than BARYE's ??)
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  2. gojeda's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    now admittedly as I earlier wrote I have not yet seen the entire series -- but which part of "The War" does Mr. Burns delve into TE Lawrence's gay adventures in the deserts of Arabia ??
    I was not speaking so much within the context of "The War", but speaking more to the fact that the use of mercernaries in the Iraq does not represent anything new in warfare for the traditional western powers.

    By the way, while TE Lawrence's sexuality has been much discussed, there has been little in the way of evidence to point to the fact that he was gay. What he do know is that he did fancy a girl during his days at Oxford, but that never amounted to any significant partnership. As a matter of fact, during his life, he never had a partnership with a member of either sex.

    This is not say, of course, that he was not gay. We just don't know. I would imagine that, after his experience at Deraa, that he was probably quite traumatized about the whole matter.

    I've perhaps missed his explorations of the 30 yrs war (is that the struggle of the Christian Right against the US??)
    It was a war fought in the 17th century Europe that involved both royal and religious ambitions. I raised the point to show that mercernaries have had a long-standing place in warfare. Of course, the 30 Years War was not the first time mercernaries were used in and around the field of battle.

    I apologize for my being new this at this kind of thing -- but could you please refer me to the Wikipedia article that talks about the American Army using paid mercenaries during WWI and WWII ??
    Well, we know about WWI since I have already mentioned TE Lawrence (who was not American, of course, but British, who just happened to be our closest in that war as they are today).
    http://telawrence.info/

    WWII saw the motley French Foreign Legion in action on behalf of the Allied cause.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Foreign_Legion

    The British and their activities in Nepal
    http://www.photius.com/countries/nep...r_w~10148.html

    And, lastly, the famous Flying Tigers of World War II
    http://www.historynet.com/magazines/...featured=y&c=y

    American mercenaries in the Congo during the 1960s (not World War II, of course)
    http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/hha...otimeline.html

    (oh --and if you are going to mention the Flying Tigers -- I think they flew on behalf of the Chinese)
    Indeed, Americans flying on behalf of the Chinese to counter the Japanese threat....which underscores the point that Americans have never been shy about being mercenaries, or using them. In this case, of course, the Flying Tigers operated with the explicit blessing from the muckity-mucks in Washington using American equipment.

    "These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled,
    Followed their mercenary calling,
    Took their wages and are dead.
    Their shoulders held the sky suspended:
    They stood and earth's foundations stay.
    What God abandoned these defended
    And saved the sum of things for pay."

    We should not forget, of course, American mercenaries in the Spanish Civil War that fought on the Republican (Communist) side.
    Last edited by gojeda; 10/04/2007 at 04:22 AM.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    I was not speaking so much within the context of "The War", but speaking more to the fact that the use of mercernaries in the Iraq does not represent anything new in warfare.

    By the way, while TE Lawrence's sexuality has been much discussed, there has been little in the way of evidence to point to the fact that he was gay. What he do know is that he did fancy a girl during his days at Oxford, but that never amounted to any significant partnership. As a matter of fact, during his life, he never had a partnership with a member of either sex.

    Well, we know about WWI since I have already mentioned TE Lawrence (who was not American, of course, but British, who just happened to be our closest in that war as they are today).
    http://telawrence.info/

    WWII saw the French Foreign Legion in action on behalf of the Allied cause.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Foreign_Legion

    The British and their activities in Nepal
    http://www.photius.com/countries/nep...r_w~10148.html

    American mercenaries in the Congo during the 1960s
    http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/hha...otimeline.html

    And, lastly, the famous Flying Tigers of World War II
    http://www.historynet.com/magazines/...featured=y&c=y

    Indeed, Americans flying on behalf of the Chinese to counter the Japanese threat....which underscores the point that Americans have never been shy about being mercenaries, or using them.

    please forgive, as BARYE's mother tonque is Corsican and not english. You write for me in, how can I say -- a too complicated kinda way -- so I asked my secretary if she can maybe translate what it is you try to tell me.

    She say you wrote:

    "Americans did not pay mercenaries to fight on their behalf in WWI and WWII -- and have never until now paid mercenaries to fight on their behalf in a war in which the army was directly engaged."

    (there was one exception to this -- but I'm not going to tell you what it was).


    It was a war fought in the 17th century Europe that involved both royal and religious ambitions. I raised the point to show that mercernaries have had a long-standing place in warfare. Of course, the 30 Years War was not the first time mercernaries were used in and around the field of battle.
    She say you wrote:

    "It was a war largely about religion (Catholic vers. Protestant -- that devastated Europe, especially the lands of what is now Germany.)"



    We should not forget, of course, American mercenaries in the Spanish Civil War that fought on the Republican (Communist) side.
    `
    She say you wrote:

    "Though I know the brave men and women of the Abraham Lincoln brigades who fought courageously against Franco, the Fascists, and the Nazis were heroes who sacrificed their lives for nothing more than course rice, German bombs, and death -- I thought I could sneak in a libelous aspersion on their honor, implying falsely that they went to Spain for money and not a cause -- and that no one would notice."
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  4. gojeda's Avatar
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    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Seems like back in the WWII days, we all shared more of the war burden. Nowadays, it seems like as long as you put a yellow sticker on your SUV, you've done your part.
    Indeed, we have become a lazy lot.

    The irony of all this "mercenary" talk is that our military is an all-volunteer force and has been, if memory serves, since 1973. Mike Gravel, incidentally, was instrumental in making that happen.

    My impression is that there will never be conscription ever again in this country. The union will disband before there is another draft in this country.

    I hope, for our sakes, there is not another World War - meaning a war in the usual sense of the word.
  5. gojeda's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    "Americans did not pay mercenaries to fight on their behalf in WWI and WWII -- and have never until now paid mercenaries to fight on their behalf in a war in which the army was directly engaged."
    I suppose, then, that we have different interpertations of that a mercenary is.

    I would refer you, again, to our involvement in the Congo in the 1960s. I would also refer you to what was done in Vietnam. And, lastly, the Flying Tigers - which is the most salient example of all.

    "It was a war largely about religion (Catholic vers. Protestant -- that devastated Europe, especially the lands of what is now Germany.)"
    Actually the Catholics of France fought alongside Protestants under the auspices of the powerful Cardinal Richelieu to fulfill his desire to weaken the Habsburg Dynasty that was primarily centered in Spain and controlled a good chunk of continental Europe in the time leading up to the war.


    "Though I know the brave men and women of the Abraham Lincoln brigades who fought courageously against Franco, the Fascists, and the Nazis were heroes who sacrificed their lives for nothing more than course rice, German bombs, and death -- I thought I could sneak in a libelous aspersion on their honor, implying falsely that they went to Spain for money and not a cause -- and that no one would notice."
    Except the problem here is that Franco was not, particularly, fascist - but was a monarchist. Supporters would say that he was a man who did what he had to do to preserve Spain, firstly, though a civil war, and secondly, through the fog of what was World War II.

    As a good synopsis of Franco's place in history, I will invoke this quote:

    ""It is fashionable at the present to dwell on the vices of general Franco and I am glad therefore to place on record this testimony to the duplicity . . . of his dealings with Hitler . . . I shall presently record even greater services which . . . General Franco rendered the Allied cause." "

    -Winston Churchill

    Back to the point, we seem to have different definitions of what a mercenary is. The foreigners who made up these brigades might have gone there for a cause (support communism, perhaps?), but others went for money or for other motivations.

    Perhaps Hemingway went to Spain for "honor". Was "honor" the reason why he later went to Cuba to support the "revolution"?
  6.    #26  
    Hah! Here's the real (Fair and Balanced) for you..

    After 18 hrs of patriotic fervor depicted in The War serial, my local PBS is showing a program on people who objected to WW2. This program is from 2002 and may not be on your local stations ..

    Good War and Those Who Refused to Fight It:

    "Eight men who refused to be drafted into the U.S. Armed Forces during WWII describe the reasons for---and consequences of---their conscientious objection. The COs---42,000 in all---"challenged the limits of American democracy in wartime," says narrator Ed Asner. Some, interviewee David Dellinger included, overstepped them by refusing to register, and were jailed. Others worked in mental hospitals or volunteered to be "guinea pigs" for medical experiments. Still others (actor Lew Ayres, most famously) became medics. None made their choices lightly. Says interviewee Sam Yoder: "WWII was a hard war to be a CO in."
    --
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    My impression is that there will never be conscription ever again in this country. The union will disband before there is another draft in this country.

    I hope, for our sakes, there is not another World War - meaning a war in the usual sense of the word.
    I disagree. We banded together as a nation right after 9/11 when we went into Afghanistan. We stood united. The world stood united behind us.

    The American people will rise to the occassion when "real" wars arise. They always have - always will.

    I do agree another draft will be difficult for this nation to absorb.
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    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I disagree. We banded together as a nation right after 9/11 when we went into Afghanistan. We stood united. The world stood united behind us.
    Which was fleeting and not particularly profound. A sense of outrage does not necessarily translate into "walking the walk".

    Let us not forget that NATO has regretably, almost from the get go, had a great deal of difficulty of getting commitments from member states to get troops into Afghanistan.

    That profound and long lasting ground-swell of support never materialized primarily for the reason that most do not have a dog in this fight.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Which was fleeting and not particularly profound. A sense of outrage does not necessarily translate into "walking the walk".

    Let us not forget that NATO has regretably, almost from the get go, had a great deal of difficulty of getting commitments from member states to get troops into Afghanistan.

    That profound and long lasting ground-swell of support never materialized primarily for the reason that most do not have a dog in this fight.
    Why do you hate America so much?

    Seriously...different times so we're never going to get an apples to apples comparison. The outcome of an Afghanistan had we maintained troop levels and not went into Iraq will never be known. And for us to speculate - especially you and I - will result in 50 pages of debate based on pure speculation.

    I believe America would rise to the occassion. You don't think they have the stomach for it quite the way they did during WWII. Let's leave it at that.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 10/04/2007 at 05:47 PM.
  10. gojeda's Avatar
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    #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Why do hate America so much?
    I am assuming you are asking me, "Why do I hate America so much?"

    It isn't hate, it is more like being distressed about the fact that we are not the country we once were as recently are 50 years ago, and that I think we are going to pay a very high price for that decline, which has already started, at some point in the future (perhaps even in our lifetime).

    The same can be said for a handful of other countries as well.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    That profound and long lasting ground-swell of support never materialized primarily for the reason that most do not have a dog in this fight.
    Economic interests equate to dogs in fights in todays world, which is the same reason why College Republicans are staying home. Values have changed at a cellular level within this Ownership Society of the Owners and the Owned, with the Owners dictating to the Owned to make the world safer for their economic interests and that of their 'friends'.

    Rightly or wrongly, being that economic muscle, to a very large degree, is what defines a superpower today, either the US can take ownership of the message it sends world-wide or the US can suffer as a result of playing wargames with the world for the right to manipulate global markets. In the latter choice, however, the US loses the 'right' to cry foul yet suffers a much more catastrophic fate in the end. Buck up, boys.
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Economic interests equate to dogs in fights in todays world, which is the same reason why College Republicans are staying home. Values have changed at a cellular level within this Ownership Society of the Owners and the Owned, with the Owners dictating to the Owned to make the world safer for their economic interests and that of their 'friends'.

    Rightly or wrongly, being that economic muscle, to a very large degree, is what defines a superpower today, either the US can take ownership of the message it sends world-wide or the US can suffer as a result of playing wargames with the world for the right to manipulate global markets. In the latter choice, however, the US loses the 'right' to cry foul yet suffers a much more catastrophic fate in the end. Buck up, boys.
    What I was referring to was the global war on terrorism and how many countries remain apathetic to it simply because, in their estimation - either rightly or wrongly, they are not a target.

    I mean, does Belgium, for example, really care about terrorism? Yes, Belgium has their counter-terrorism infrastructure because the EU tells so, but are they are particular target? Do they feel threatened? Are they surrounded by porous remote borders, like our southern border, where almost anyone can walk across? Is terrorism, really, their problem - like it is for countries like Britain, France, Spain, Italy, or even Canada? Do they feel a sense of urgency about the whole issue?

    No - not particularly.

    So I am not really sure where you were going with your post except, to say, that superpowers - no matter how benevolent they are, are never liked. That dellusion of the 1990s has come back to bite us in the ***.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I probably should reference a video along the same line done by BARYE a while back. (full screen version)

    The relevant "Chickenhawk" part starts about 3 minutes in, should anyone begin to get antsy.

    Oh -- and the war veteran who is at the center of the piece is John Bruhns -- 2 years after me. (was Oliver Stone's interview better than BARYE's ??)
    great video!
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Nice to see you posting again Cell.
    thanks!
  15. #35  
    I haven't watched this....but really want to. I saw this series on DVD at Costco today in a special edition that included the hardcover book and something else included as well for $104. The DVD set without the book was $75 with the book in the next aisle selling for around $30.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Indeed, we have become a lazy lot.

    The irony of all this "mercenary" talk is that our military is an all-volunteer force and has been, if memory serves, since 1973. Mike Gravel, incidentally, was instrumental in making that happen.

    My impression is that there will never be conscription ever again in this country. The union will disband before there is another draft in this country.

    I hope, for our sakes, there is not another World War - meaning a war in the usual sense of the word.
    Not a draft, but a year of compulsory service for our country, like they do in Israel, be it on active duty or even through humanitarian means like the peace corps, would be a good thing.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I haven't watched this....but really want to. I saw this series on DVD at Costco today in a special edition that included the hardcover book and something else included as well for $104. The DVD set without the book was $75 with the book in the next aisle selling for around $30.
    I ordered it on netflix, but its not yet available.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    What I was referring to was the global war on terrorism and how many countries remain apathetic to it simply because, in their estimation - either rightly or wrongly, they are not a target.
    So was I. As I said, the message the US sends must be one of cohesion and collaboration, not the schoolyard bullyism 'with us or against us'. The position taken by College Republicans as compared to that taken by foreign nations' governments is quite strikingly similar and for the same reasons.
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    So was I. As I said, the message the US sends must be one of cohesion and collaboration, not the schoolyard bullyism 'with us or against us'.
    I am not sure how much more unambiguous a message can get.

    Some might take it as schoolyard bullyism. I suspect many will take it as that we mean business.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    I am not sure how much more unambiguous a message can get.

    Some might take it as schoolyard bullyism. I suspect many will take it as that we mean business.
    How's that whole bullyism thing working out for us?

    Oh and did the world see us as pansies when we spanked the Taliban in Afghanistan or is it possible they knew we meant "business"?
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