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  1.    #1  
    I see that Nancy has failed yet again. I know I know...some of you are surprised to see me post this. Believe me I recognize that the GOP is doing all that they can to obstruct the Dems from achieving any political/legislative victories. That said I cannot help but blame these two equally if not more for their inability to caucus and rally moderate Republicans against the right-wingers and get over the veto threshold. So tell me I am wrong....but back it up with more than rhetoric. Are they really the right leadership for the Democratic party in the house and senate?
    Last edited by moderateinny; 09/27/2007 at 12:10 PM.
  2. #2  
    No, they are not. Nancy and Harry are so interested in screwing with the opposition and trying to convince everyone they are everyone's buddies. Their agenda, well, they do not have one other than to be "opposite" of the opposition. The Democrats need to get a platform that appeals to all of America, not just the left. They need to quit alienating themselves from the average person who does not always agree with them. Appealing to the left and having no platform other than to ***** about what the Republicans are doing, a sure sign they are nothing more than failures.

    The Democrat party needs a platform of what they will do for this country, not *****ing about what the Republicans have/are doing. Both of them are so ate up with getting back at the other guys, that they really have just angered everyone.

    Ben
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    No, they are not. Nancy and Harry are so interested in screwing with the opposition and trying to convince everyone they are everyone's buddies. Their agenda, well, they do not have one other than to be "opposite" of the opposition. The Democrats need to get a platform that appeals to all of America, not just the left. They need to quit alienating themselves from the average person who does not always agree with them. Appealing to the left and having no platform other than to ***** about what the Republicans are doing, a sure sign they are nothing more than failures.

    The Democrat party needs a platform of what they will do for this country, not *****ing about what the Republicans have/are doing. Both of them are so ate up with getting back at the other guys, that they really have just angered everyone.

    Ben
    OK.
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I see that Nancy has failed yet again. I know I know...some of you are surprised to see me post this. Believe me I recognize that the GOP is doing all that they can to obstruct the Dems from achieving any political/legislative victories. That said I cannot help but blame these two equally if not more for their inability to caucus and rally moderate Republicans against the right-wingers and get over the veto threshold. So tell me I am wrong....but back it up with more than rhetoric. Are they really the right leadership for the Democratic party in the house and senate?
    Due to the excesses of the past 6 years, there is much to police in order to remove longterm negative effects. Taking those steps doesn't play to the conservatives very well because it takes more than a 15-second sound bite to explain and in most cases there's nothing 'sexy' or warm-and-fuzzy about the necessary actions. IOW, the only missing ingredient is marketing spin.

    As BARYE accurately posted recently, as Clinton had to pay for the excesses of Reagan, so must this congress, future congresses, future presidents and public pay for the excesses of Bush.

    Are Pelosi and Reid the right leaders for the short term? Possibly, for those with a longterm outlook. Politics, especially by this new Bush definition, are all about immediate public effect (aircraft carrier landing, Iraq->Al Queda + nuclear weapon linkage, etc) to tip scales of public support or silence critics. Congress does not play politics by that manipulated definition and hopefully never will.

    Would I prefer to see more 60+ Senate vote counts for or against measures the Democrats are pushing. Definitely. Can Pelosi rally members, cut deals to that point? So far, I'd have to say no on titillating measures such as troop withdrawal and hard reversals on Bush's Iraq plans. Because the Senate is so narrowly divided, 51/49, on measures such as those, it's unlikely any other Senate Majority Leader could either given where Republicans generally stand. Who else would you propose has the Senate or House leadership of time on high-ranking committees and has the charisma and leadership skills to play Moses?
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    [...] Are they really the right leadership for the Democratic party in the house and senate?
    The problem with this question is that neither major party seems to have leadership worth a wooden nickel. I'm not sure if I could tell you with authority what either of the major parties stand _for_. Both of them seem to define themselves (or allow themselves to be defined) these days by what they're against. I suppose it comes from the fact that it's much easier to criticize what someone else says/thinks/does than to stick your own neck out and reveal something about yourself. I honestly can't think of a major Republican or Democrat candidate or incumbent (for any national office) that fits the bill, except for maybe Ron Paul, but he's probably not major. Not that they don't exist, just that they apparently haven't made the stage for whatever reason.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Who else would you propose has the Senate or House leadership of time on high-ranking committees and has the charisma and leadership skills to play Moses?
    Well someone less polarizing would be a good start. You don't get much further left than Nancy Pelosi. So how about someone like John Salazar, a veteran and a moderate democrat? Mind you I said "like" as I realize he is quite new to congress. But in the case of Nancy I think they could have picked just about anybody and they would have been further to the right to her.

    I appreciate and understand your sentiments that there is much to clean up after the worst adminstration in history and the biggest spending (GOP) congress in history. But I was disappointed when Nancy became speaker as I thought she'd be a lightning rod and try as she might, she just cannot get the votes. Fundamentally I tilt to the left these days because I think out of the two parties there is a lesser of evils and I'm hoping that party can affect change.
  7. #7  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Due to the excesses of the past 6 years, there is much to police in order to remove longterm negative effects. Taking those steps doesn't play to the conservatives very well because it takes more than a 15-second sound bite to explain and in most cases there's nothing 'sexy' or warm-and-fuzzy about the necessary actions. IOW, the only missing ingredient is marketing spin.

    As BARYE accurately posted recently, as Clinton had to pay for the excesses of Reagan, so must this congress, future congresses, future presidents and public pay for the excesses of Bush.

    Are Pelosi and Reid the right leaders for the short term? Possibly, for those with a longterm outlook. Politics, especially by this new Bush definition, are all about immediate public effect (aircraft carrier landing, Iraq->Al Queda + nuclear weapon linkage, etc) to tip scales of public support or silence critics. Congress does not play politics by that manipulated definition and hopefully never will.

    Would I prefer to see more 60+ Senate vote counts for or against measures the Democrats are pushing. Definitely. Can Pelosi rally members, cut deals to that point? So far, I'd have to say no on titillating measures such as troop withdrawal and hard reversals on Bush's Iraq plans. Because the Senate is so narrowly divided, 51/49, on measures such as those, it's unlikely any other Senate Majority Leader could either given where Republicans generally stand. Who else would you propose has the Senate or House leadership of time on high-ranking committees and has the charisma and leadership skills to play Moses?
    good points (especially the second one...)

    I float within a world in which Reid and Peloisi are seen as spineless wimps, leaders who were specifically elected to end this war -- to stop funding it except to pay for withdrawing our troops.

    I'm somewhat more forgiving in that I understand the limitations of a thin majority, and an opposition without scruples -- an opposition willing to lie and demogogue with no conscience, shame, or sense of hypocrisy.

    Nevertheless, neither Reid or Pelosi are especially good leaders or spokepeople.

    Imagine what an articulate driven majority leader -- a lefty Gingrich if you will -- could have done given the circumstances.

    Sadly they both lack the inspirational verbal jiu-jistu needed to bring junior and company to heel.
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/26/2007 at 05:11 PM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  8. #8  
    I largely agree with what Toby said. Leadership on both sides of the aisle is lacking. As for Harry and Nancy, they do not instill confidence. They donít seem to be able to rise above it all, both are very strident and partisan.

    What makes it worse is that they donít have the guts to back up the rhetoric. I always say ďDonít talk about it, be about it.Ē

    She kinda reminds me of ďtake no prisonersĒ Tom Delay. You remember him donít you? The bug exterminator? Treating democrats as if they were all cockroaches, and the country like an infested house he needed to fog?

    Although I criticize them for being so partisan, what are you suppose to do when youíre dealing with equally partisan and greedy republicans? We need reasonable centrist people in government. People who know how to negotiate and reach consensus. That is after all what itís all about isnít it. Compromise?

    But for whatever reason our best donít run for office. (Are is it not chosen and supported by the political parties to run for office)? Sadly, instead of solutions, all we get is this partisan war between republicans and democrats and we are simply caught in the middle. Sort of like that divorcing couple that now hates each other. Itís always a fight over assets and money, and itís always the kids (us) that suffer.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    -- an opposition willing to lie and demogogue with no conscience, shame, or sense of hypocrisy.
    Sounds like an apt description of both parties if not politicians in general.
  10. #10  
    The "all politicians are equally bad" message is one which offers some hope for the GOP. Increasing voter apathy among young people and independents which are currently leaning heavily democrat seems like the only way to avert a total disaster in 08. The GOP political machinery is organized and does a good job but if they can pull this one out of the fire, my hat is off to them.
  11.    #11  
    Cell you've ended up right where I was going with this. I think they are so polarizing and ineffective that the GOP might have a shot at just that - "we're all bad boys/girls, but at least we can goose step to the same drum beat".
  12.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Gasmeister View Post
    Sounds like an apt description of both parties if not politicians in general.
    I could not disagree more. We have a very clear winner when it comes to lying with no conscience, shame, or sense of hypocrisy. GOP hands down. In short, there is a lesser of the evils no matter how big or small you think that gap may be.
  13. #13  
    Being able to use your media outlets to communicate talking points to your base in an unambiguous and efficent way, really has proven itself effective thus far. You think Pellosi and Reed and the democrats are half as organized as the republicans at this? Its definitely a trump card for the GOP.
  14. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I could not disagree more. We have a very clear winner when it comes to lying with no conscience, shame, or sense of hypocrisy. GOP hands down. In short, there is a lesser of the evils no matter how big or small you think that gap may be.

    Don't forget cheating, and voter intimidation.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  15. #15  
    moderateinny - changed the "is" to "are" in the title. Was bugging me. Maybe I missed a "Is our children learning" joke or something, though?
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    moderateinny - changed the "is" to "are" in the title. Was bugging me. Maybe I missed a "Is our children learning" joke or something, though?
    Thanks. It was bugging me too, but I didn't mention it in my reply since I didn't want it to be taken the wrong way.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17.    #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by septimus View Post
    moderateinny - changed the "is" to "are" in the title. Was bugging me. Maybe I missed a "Is our children learning" joke or something, though?

    LOL. No offense taken at all. I was orginally going to write "Is Nancy Pelosi..." and then tossed in Harry and noticed after I posted I had left it as an "Is" vs. "Are". I don't know how to change it or I would have by now.
  18. #18  
    Did we forget that its was the Democrat party that wanted NOT to count the votes of our off-shore service members?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Don't forget cheating, and voter intimidation.
  19.    #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Did we forget that its was the Democrat party that wanted NOT to count the votes of our off-shore service members?
    I've heard that before too. But then again, I've never bothered to look at the specific circumstances of this. Was this during the recount effort in 2000 in Miami/Dade? Were they really trying to prevent members of the military from voting or were there underlying concerns about the method used to capture their votes?
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Did we forget that its was the Democrat party that wanted NOT to count the votes of our off-shore service members?

    This Ben, was an example of an ugly Republican libelous lie.

    This (like most of what I write) is from memory, but as I recall the rules for absentee ballots for everyone else was that they had have been received by a certain date: presumably the day of election.

    Absentee military ballots had more leeway, they were required to be POSTMARKED by the date of the election.

    Repugnicans insisted that ballots with POSTOFFICE DATES AFTER the election be counted !!!

    The Republicans successfully stuffed the ballot boxes with extra votes after they learned how close Florida was.

    (BTW, they were helped in this by that brain dead semi-repugnican from Connecticut...)
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/28/2007 at 08:55 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
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