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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Wow. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think Bush is by far the furthest right - make that extreme right - President in history.
    By what measure? I think he has certainly some tendencies that border on fascist, but he's also never met a spending bill he didn't like (provided that it didn't prevent him from spending even more in the future).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Considering that the link you provided lists it as political humor and considering the subject matter of the other books listed as being by the same author, I think it's obvious that he's not without bias. I'd probably give him more weight than most religious texts, but I'm going to give him the same measure of incredulity as ...say William F Buckley when writing about someone whom he obviously opposes.
    For an electorate which has repeatedly proven that it's not exactly known to be the most informed on earth, a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. The book begins with the history of the 1801 election and its aftermath, which is as appropriate a benchmark as exists for consideration of 2000 and my point about a grave constitutional crisis.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Wow. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think Bush is by far the furthest right - make that extreme right - President in history.
    We've got our very own Rightwing Socialist, ala 3rd-world countries.
  4. gojeda's Avatar
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    #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    This Ben, was an example of an ugly Republican libelous lie.

    This (like most of what I write) is from memory, but as I recall the rules for absentee ballots for everyone else was that they had have been received by a certain date: presumably the day of election.

    Absentee military ballots had more leeway, they were required to be POSTMARKED by the date of the election.

    Repugnicans insisted that ballots with POSTOFFICE DATES AFTER the election be counted !!!

    The Republicans successfully stuffed the ballot boxes with extra votes after they learned how close Florida was.

    (BTW, they were helped in this by that brain dead semi-repugnican from Connecticut...)
    Barye - you aren't related to that other tin-foil hat hatemonger Paul Krugman by any chance, are you?

    How about your friend Michael Moore, who did not even support Gore but instead supported Nader, leading the charge to scuttle the 2000 elections? Nader won 92,000 votes in Florida that year. Perhaps had he thought things through, a good deal of those 92,000 votes would have ended up on Gore's tally?

    I think a couple of facts need to be repeated as it seems the history of things has become murky for some of us:

    1. Gore never led in Florida. He did not lead on election night. He did not lead after the state recount. He did not lead after any county recounts (which, mysteriously, added votes - especially in strong democrat counties). And, with the exception of one or two studies, he did not lead after almost every major newspaper in the state and the country conducted their own recounts.

    2. As stated before, Gore did not want all the votes counted. He wanted to DISQUALIFY votes - most of which were from overseas military and absentee voters who, traditionally, are strong republicans.

    3. Thirdly, a favorite mantra of the left is that the Supreme Court gave the election to Bush. This is false. The Supreme Court (by a whopping 7-2 vote) stopped the Florida Supreme court (rabidly democrat) from flouting the election laws of the state until the outcome of the election was more to their liking.

    4. The Florida Supreme court never...EVER....mandated a clear and consistent manner of re-counting the disputed votes. The counties were left to do their own bidding until the USSC said enough.

    5. Even if the state of Florida was excluded from the electoral process because of the delays in certifying the vote, that would have meant neither Bush nor Gore would have had enough electoral votes. In that case, the US House of Representatives, which was controlled by the Republicans, would have elected Bush as President.

    And the last inconvenient factoid for my Democrat friends:

    6. With the exception of Florida, every other state that held a election in 2000 that was decided by less than 1% (New Mexico, Iowa, Wisconsin and Oregon) went to Gore. Did you see the Republicans making a big stink in those states?

    Of course, all of this is moot if Gore had managed to win the support of the people who knew him best - the voters of Tennessee.

    Gore lost. Get over it.
  5. gojeda's Avatar
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    #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    For an electorate which has repeatedly proven that it's not exactly known to be the most informed on earth, a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. The book begins with the history of the 1801 election and its aftermath, which is as appropriate a benchmark as exists for consideration of 2000 and my point about a grave constitutional crisis.
    ...which never materialized.
  6. #66  
    gojeda, if you can be bothered, please drop the propaganda when presenting 'facts', such as the Supreme Court decision (real decision was 5-4) which halted the FL recounts, in addition to a number of other falsehoods you just posted.

    http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/election/electiontime.htm
  7. gojeda's Avatar
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    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    gojeda, if you can be bothered, please drop the propaganda when presenting 'facts', such as the Supreme Court decision (5-4) which halted the FL recounts, in addition to a number of other falsehoods you just posted.

    http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/election/electiontime.htm
    In the best scenario, what I present are facts. In the worst scenario, what I present is nothing worse than the propaganda stream that you your little cabal have going here.

    That being said, I suggest you re-read what was said.

    There was no "real decision". There were two of them.

    The 7-2 vote by the US Supreme Court was the vote that over-ruled the counting system by the Florida Supreme Court (which wasn't much of a system to begin with as the counties did whatever benchmark they wanted) which was in clear violation of Florida election law. I believe I clearly stated as much and is factually true.

    The 5-4 vote required that the Florida count be finalized and certified. I went on to state that in the worst case scenario event (in this case the 5-4 vote would have been a 4-5 vote), that Bush would have still been elected as per Florida state election law and Consitutional law.

    Now, please tell me you have a point with your post above?
  8.    #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    By what measure? I think he has certainly some tendencies that border on fascist, but he's also never met a spending bill he didn't like (provided that it didn't prevent him from spending even more in the future).
    Well you're just pointing out one facet of his many hypocrisies there. He sure as hell never campaigned as being a "liberal" spender and I'd bet a majority of the GOP would still never admit that Bush has been a worse spender than any Democrat that held the office. So perhaps its semantics with respect to fiscal matters...the facade Karl Rove painted of Bush that his is a conservative when in fact his actions belie his words.
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    The 7-2 vote by the US Supreme Court was the vote that over-ruled the counting system by the Florida Supreme Court (which wasn't much of a system to begin with as the counties did whatever benchmark they wanted) which was in clear violation of Florida election law. I believe I clearly stated as much and is factually true.
    Sources?

    The 5-4 vote required that the Florida count be finalized and certified.
    Source?

    Now, please tell me you have a point with your post above?
    Though it was not my point, the summation seems to be that you either 1) cannot or 2) will not accept recorded recent history as fact.
  10.    #70  
    Interesting discussion. I think Gore would have lost the recount. But that doesn't change my mind about Bush being a spoiled pi$$ pot about it all.

    I found Bush's stomping off to the US Supreme Court to be contemptable in that he refused to accept the Florida Supreme Court's ruling that the recount should move forward.

    In any event, for all you righties out there - its truly a shame we couldn't send more of you to Iraq because in the end Bush won the election - as you're all so damned proud of - and now that YOU all broke it YOU should feel free to fly over there and fix it. Oh and if you don't mind, could you write the other 51% that voted against Bush a nice check for $1 trillion and don't let the door knob hit you in the a$$ on the way out of the country? Thanks.
  11. #71  
    gojeda,

    I like you style, or should I say substance.

    I thought I was the only rationale one here (outside maybe Toby).

    Facts are so inconvenient to the rabid "liberals"/Demos (I don't even like those labels, because they really don't mean much these days.)

    Bush won 2000 fair and square. Get over it. Look forward, not back.
  12. gojeda's Avatar
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    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Sources? Source?
    Did you not read your own source that you cited in post #66? Apparently not.

    Regarding the 5-4 decision:
    "At about 10 p.m. EST, U.S. Supreme Court issues 5-4 decision in Gore v. Bush reversing Florida Supreme Court and ruling that manual recounts cannot be conducted in a constitutional manner in the time remaining."
    http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/election/electiontime.htm

    In other words, the recounts stop. The results stand. And the Florida results are to be certified.

    Regarding the 7-2 decision:
    "Seven justices of this Court agree that there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court..."

    "Broadly speaking, the 7-2 split was over the question of reversing the Florida court, but the 5-4 split was over the termination of manual recounts."

    So here, Washington is telling Tallahassee to stop playing tricks with the recount.....not to mention that time was not on Florida's side.
    http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/12/...s.election.05/

    Oh - and in direct contradiction of what you've said above (that there was only one real vote), the 7-2 and 5-4 decisions were issued concurrently by the court.

    Though it was not my point, the summation seems to be that you either 1) cannot or 2) will not accept recorded recent history as fact.
    I am not the one who has a problem with the notion that Gore lost in 2000.
  13. gojeda's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    gojeda,

    I like you style, or should I say substance.

    I thought I was the only rationale one here (outside maybe Toby).

    Facts are so inconvenient to the rabid "liberals"/Demos (I don't even like those labels, because they really don't mean much these days.)

    Bush won 2000 fair and square. Get over it. Look forward, not back.
    Is it not funny how liberals pride themselves on being forward thinkers - yet, they still seem to be stuck in 2000 whenever the topic of elections are brought up?

    Quizzical to say the least.
  14. gojeda's Avatar
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    #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I found Bush's stomping off to the US Supreme Court to be contemptable in that he refused to accept the Florida Supreme Court's ruling that the recount should move forward.
    If the laws of the state of Florida were being flouted by the very ones who are supposed to protect them, I would hope the SCOTUS would be involved in the matter. That is, after all, why they exist.

    In any event, for all you righties out there - its truly a shame we couldn't send more of you to Iraq because in the end Bush won the election - as you're all so damned proud of - and now that YOU all broke it YOU should feel free to fly over there and fix it. Oh and if you don't mind, could you write the other 51% that voted against Bush a nice check for $1 trillion and don't let the door knob hit you in the a$$ on the way out of the country? Thanks.
    tsk tsk...so bitter. Here is a napkin
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    Barye - you aren't related to that other tin-foil hat hatemonger Paul Krugman by any chance, are you?

    How about your friend Michael Moore, who did not even support Gore but instead supported Nader, leading the charge to scuttle the 2000 elections? Nader won 92,000 votes in Florida that year. Perhaps had he thought things through, a good deal of those 92,000 votes would have ended up on Gore's tally?...
    just dashing through, haven't had time to even read anything else -- but have to respond to that question because I actually asked Nader that (more or less) a week or so ago.

    The actual question was (approx): :"... given all that you now know of what has befallen our country and our world because of bush (junior) becoming president, do you ever late at night, have any pangs of guilt or regret about what you might have done differently ??..."
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well you're just pointing out one facet of his many hypocrisies there.
    Sure, but being a hypocrite doesn't make one right wing.
    [...] So perhaps its semantics with respect to fiscal matters...the facade Karl Rove painted of Bush that his is a conservative when in fact his actions belie his words.
    OK, but I'm still not sure where he becomes the most 'right' president. The Patriot Act is about the only 'rightist' thing that comes to mind (not that it's small potatoes). Maybe stem cells too, but that was more pandering than right wing, IMO.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    In the best scenario, what I present are facts. In the worst scenario, what I present is nothing worse than the propaganda stream that you your little cabal have going here.
    Those who are actively posting in this thread are either clearly specifying a matter is opinion or are providing background which corroborates a claim.

    You provide neither, leaving you with propaganda.

    As to your overplayed hand of: "Regarding the 7-2 decision:
    "Seven justices of this Court agree that there are constitutional problems with the recount ordered by the Florida Supreme Court..."
    , this non-binding, unsigned opinion specifically states: "Because it is evident that any recount seeking to meet the December 12 date will be unconstitutional ... we reverse the judgment of the Supreme Court of Florida ordering a recount to proceed" which laughingly stands in contrast to your claim of: "The 7-2 vote by the US Supreme Court was the vote that over-ruled the counting system by the Florida Supreme Court (which wasn't much of a system to begin with as the counties did whatever benchmark they wanted) which was [Edit: the following is untrue and unfounded] in clear violation of Florida election law. I believe I clearly stated as much and is factually true."

    Separately, the 5-4 binding decision was on the grounds that the County recounts could not be finished by the Tuesday, 12/12 deadline, set by federal law, for state legislatures to choose electors. Not based upon anything else.

    Someone please tell me that gojeda and mikec are well-meaning Democrats in disguise posting as conservatives/Republicans to make them appear clueless. Someone, please?
  18.    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by gojeda View Post
    If the laws of the state of Florida were being flouted by the very ones who are supposed to protect them, I would hope the SCOTUS would be involved in the matter. That is, after all, why they exist.

    tsk tsk...so bitter. Here is a napkin
    Not bitter. Let me be more specific - I'm pi$$ed off that people like you did this to our country. You should be ashamed of yourself, not indignant.

    BTW - if you're gonna keep trying to be so cute and witty you may want to use the correct terminology for the "jokes" you post. It would be a tissue, not a napkin.

    Last edited by moderateinny; 09/29/2007 at 07:27 PM.
  19.    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    gojeda,

    I like you style, or should I say substance.

    I thought I was the only rationale one here (outside maybe Toby).

    Facts are so inconvenient to the rabid "liberals"/Demos (I don't even like those labels, because they really don't mean much these days.)

    Bush won 2000 fair and square. Get over it. Look forward, not back.
    Yes, you two are proud peas in a pod. Hug hug kiss kiss (c'mon...you both know you want to...its the latest thing for supposed homophobic righties).

    FWIW - I'm not contesting the fact that Bush won. Fair and square? Dunno about that. Had the recount been allowed to happen it does seem that he would have won. But he did lose the general election and he could have allowed the Florida State Supreme Court's decision stand. But much like you and your new found buddy, he instead decided to be a divisive SOB and fracture our frail democracy to satisfy his perceived "entitlement" to become "king".
  20. #80  
    modera,

    You seem to have a homoerotic projection going on. If you want to taste a little man paste, that's your business. (Not that there's anything wrong with that - remember don't ask, don't tell.)

    Gore lost. Get over it.
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