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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Did we forget that its was the Democrat party that wanted NOT to count the votes of our off-shore service members?
    O’yeah....seems like I do recall people like Freddie (the beatle) Barnes and that other a$$ wipe Morton???......K something whining on fox news. Typical republican outrage and spin. I also remember purported republican’s storming the court house, only to later read most of those people were paid to be there. (It’s always symbolism over truth with republicans isn’t it).

    The democrats were just trying to insure that voting procedures were fair and uniform. You had problems were ballots with flaws were being treated differently depending on where that ballot was counted, republicans wanting to waive election laws and count everything (but only if it was in Bush’s favor). Nothing uniform about that. I’d throw them out too.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    The democrats were just trying to insure that voting procedures were fair and uniform. You had problems were ballots with flaws were being treated differently depending on where that ballot was counted, republicans wanting to waive election laws and count everything (but only if it was in Bush’s favor). Nothing uniform about that. I’d throw them out too.
    We remember the 2000 fiasco quite differently (unless you're being sarcastic). Both parties were trying to twist things to their advantage. Don't forget that Gore's original suit was only to challenge the results in certain regions. Also, when the media sponsored recounts were done, Gore only came out ahead in a couple possible counting methods (which were not used in any previous election).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    We remember the 2000 fiasco quite differently (unless you're being sarcastic). Both parties were trying to twist things to their advantage. Don't forget that Gore's original suit was only to challenge the results in certain regions. Also, when the media sponsored recounts were done, Gore only came out ahead in a couple possible counting methods (which were not used in any previous election).

    they should have from the beginning asked for a full state recount

    Gore's election team was completely unprepared for the full bore onslaught of junior's election stealing team

    On every venue they were outwitted and out played.

    junior's team seemed like they expected to have to steal Florida -- and it didn't hurt that junior's brother was governor, and that his campaign charperson Katherine Harris was in charge of counting the votes.

    A fair fight indeed ...
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Don't forget that Gore's original suit was only to challenge the results in certain regions.
    What was the problem with that action?

    Also, when the media sponsored recounts were done, Gore only came out ahead in a couple possible counting methods (which were not used in any previous election).
    Not used in any previous FL election? Source?
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    they should have from the beginning asked for a full state recount.
    Well I didn't like Bush heading into the election but I can tell you this much - his spoiled pi$$pot attitude about the whole thing really turned me off forever. I could see then that my fears that his would be one of the most arrogant administrations in history were just beginning to come to fruition.

    The fact that Bush knew that night he had lost the general election yet acted as though "its my ball and I'm taking it home"....well I guess I cannot believe that this had to go to the Surpreme Court with Daddy's friends to stop the count. A more honorable man would have called for a recount to assure the nation that the results of the election were correct. But we know now that he could not be a less honorable man.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 09/27/2007 at 10:21 PM.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well I didn't like Bush heading into the election but I can tell you this much - his spoiled pi$$pot attitude about the whole thing really turned me off forever. I could see then that my fears that his would be one of the most arrogant administrations in history were just beginning to come to fruition.

    The fact that Bush knew that night he had lost the general election yet acted as though "its my ball and I'm taking it home"....well I guess I cannot believe that this had to go to the Surpreme Court with Daddy's friends to stop the count. A more honorable man would have called for a recount to assure the nation that the results of the election were correct. But we know now that he could not be a less honorable man.
    so very true.

    Any decent patroit who truly loved this country and its democratic traditions would never have wanted to attain power by anything less than being sure the process was fair and honest.

    But this crowd is dishonourable to their core.

    Everything is justified as long as they can pretend that their ends are good.

    Lying, stealing elections, evesdropping on americans, torturing prisoners -- all this is allowed if your goals are good.

    junior learned everything he knows about politics from Lee Atwater -- the evil father of modern smear communication

    Ultimately junior and his henchpeople were infused with a sense of entitlement

    as though they believed that they deserved to regain ownership of this country irrespective of whether they earned it -- afterall, didn't god want them to get it back from those evil sinners ??

    (god wanted it gotten back honorably if possible -- but as dishonorably as was neccesary, as long as it was gotten back)

    How could they have had their campaign manager Katherine Harris in charge of counting the votes ??
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/28/2007 at 11:11 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  7.    #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    so very true.

    Any decent patroit who truly loved this country and its democratic traditions would never have wanted to attain power by anything less than being sure the process was fair and honest.

    But this crowd is dishonourable to their core.

    Everything is justified as long as they can pretend that their ends are good.

    Lying, stealing elections, evesdropping on americans, torturing prisoners -- all this is allowed if your goals are good.

    junior learned everything he knows about politics from Lee Atwater -- the evil father of modern smear communication

    Ultimately junior and his henchpeople were infused with a sense of entitlement

    as though they believed that they deserved to regain ownership of this country irrespective of whether they earned it -- afterall, didn't god want them to get it back from those evil sinners ??

    (god wanted it gotten back honorably if possible -- but as dishonorably as was neccesary, as long as it was gotten back)

    How could they have had their campaign manager Katherine Harris in charge of counting the votes ??
    Well I'm not one for conspiracy theories. For instance I still believe Oswald was the lone assassin (another debate...another day).

    But I do think Bush showed his contempt for Democracy that day. If he loved freedom and Democracy so much he would have taken a look at the general election and realized that a recount would be the only way to look the American people in the eye and claim a proper victory.

    Instead he had two choices that day: 1) shut down the recount and divide the country given the general election results knowing full well he was basically flipping off 51% off Americans who voted for the other candidate.
    OR 2) roll the dice and DEMAND a recount to assure America that he truly values the Democratic process.

    What a stand up guy he turned out to be, uh?
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    they should have from the beginning asked for a full state recount
    At the least.
    Gore's election team was completely unprepared for the full bore onslaught of junior's election stealing team
    I think you've been watching too much Michael Moore. Gore had a pretty good team. He just tried to play the wrong game.
    On every venue they were outwitted and out played.

    junior's team seemed like they expected to have to steal Florida -- and it didn't hurt that junior's brother was governor, and that his campaign charperson Katherine Harris was in charge of counting the votes.

    A fair fight indeed ...
    She wasn't in charge of counting the votes. All she did was certify the results the counties turned in. The local election people were in charge of counting the votes.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    What was the problem with that action?
    Not a problem, per se (my guy never had a chance of winning)...just that it wasn't very effective at achieving his goal. From my recollection, if Al Gore had received only what he asked for, he'd have lost by less slim of a margin.
    Not used in any previous FL election?
    From what I recall, the counties were a hodgepodge of voting types and practices, so not exactly. More like Al would have won only if everything were recounted and using the most lenient standards counting overvotes, undervotes, 'intent of the voter', etc.
    Source?
    Associated press reports at the time.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well I'm not one for conspiracy theories. For instance I still believe Oswald was the lone assassin (another debate...another day).

    But I do think Bush showed his contempt for Democracy that day. If he loved freedom and Democracy so much he would have taken a look at the general election and realized that a recount would be the only way to look the American people in the eye and claim a proper victory.

    Instead he had two choices that day: 1) shut down the recount and divide the country given the general election results knowing full well he was basically flipping off 51% off Americans who voted for the other candidate.
    OR 2) roll the dice and DEMAND a recount to assure America that he truly values the Democratic process.

    What a stand up guy he turned out to be, uh?
    Can you imagine the kind of respect and admiration Bush would have garnered if he had done what you suggested? Wow! That would have been a heart felt message felt around the world. Americans would have been proud. And if it came to pass that he indeed did win the election, we all could have echoed John Wayne’s sentiment when Wayne was asked about Kennedy...... “I didn’t vote for him but he’s my president, and I hope he does a good job.” ......


    (Watch someone post and try to make this about Keith Olbermann)
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Not a problem, per se (my guy never had a chance of winning)...just that it wasn't very effective at achieving his goal. From my recollection, if Al Gore had received only what he asked for, he'd have lost by less slim of a margin.
    There was no legal mechanism to request a recount at the State level. FL law mandates a county-by-county request which is both more expensive to pursue and more time consuming for his legal team. By ending his legal actions where he did, at the US Supreme Court level, he avoided a constitutional crisis like this country has never seen before. While there is much to admire in having the steel to act as the dignified 'loser' in that election, if Gore knew then what he knows today about what price this country would pay for the Bush 'win', he may have thrown all caution to the wind and torn down the facade which prevented a fair election in the first place.

    There were also over-reaches by FL judges who ruled in favor of Bush's motions.

    From what I recall, the counties were a hodgepodge of voting types and practices, so not exactly.
    That's how FL county law works. Each can be as unique in its election criteria as the State constitution will allow.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    There was no legal mechanism to request a recount at the State level.
    Except for the mandatory recount triggered by the close margin anyway.
    FL law mandates a county-by-county request which is both more expensive to pursue and more time consuming for his legal team.
    Sure, and he asked for manual recounts in the four counties where he thought he could gain the most. It was ultimately far more expensive.
    By ending his legal actions where he did, at the US Supreme Court level, he avoided a constitutional crisis like this country has never seen before. While there is much to admire in having the steel to act as the dignified 'loser' in that election,
    I think you're probably being a tad generous here. It's not like he only pursued certain counties in a effort to save a constitutional crisis.
    if Gore knew then what he knows today about what price this country would pay for the Bush 'win', he may have thrown all caution to the wind and torn down the facade which prevented a fair election in the first place.
    I think everyone would have been better off had Florida's voters just been able to take a mulligan.
    There were also over-reaches by FL judges who ruled in favor of Bush's motions.

    That's how FL county law works. Each can be as unique in its election criteria as the State constitution will allow.
    I think that's probably how most states work. I'm sure there are irregularities in elections of that sort all the time. It's just that in most cases, the margins are not nearly as close, so it never gets noticed. That was just a perfect storm of charlie foxtrots.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13. #33  
    If you haven't already, you should really read Jews For Buchanan by John Nichols to better understand how manipulative Bush was in the FL election process. http://www.thenewpress.com/index.php...productid=1420
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I think you're probably being a tad generous here. It's not like he only pursued certain counties in a effort to save a constitutional crisis.
    That wasn't my point. If Gore had pursued the election by any means necessary beyond the Supreme Court's 12/12/2000 decision, a federal constitutional crisis of huge proportion would have occurred. Now seeing the past as prologue, if Bush had found himself in Gore's position in 2000, he would've taken this country down that crisis road without hesitation.
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    ... if Bush had found himself in Gore's position in 2000, he would've taken this country down that crisis road without hesitation.
    Amen.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    If you haven't already, you should really read Jews For Buchanan by John Nichols to better understand how manipulative Bush was in the FL election process. http://www.thenewpress.com/index.php...productid=1420
    It looks like it might be an interesting read, but I'm not sure how much reliability one could place on conclusions drawn from it. I'm a bit behind on my political reading, though. I still haven't made it to Bushworld yet.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    That wasn't my point.
    I was referring to the part where you were admiring his steel.
    If Gore had pursued the election by any means necessary beyond the Supreme Court's 12/12/2000 decision, a federal constitutional crisis of huge proportion would have occurred.
    I guess we see that one differently. In my view, if one was truly looking out for the interest of the electorate, taking things down that road in their interest wouldn't be a bad thing. The problem is that I don't buy that either Gore or Bush care about the electorate deep down.
    Now seeing the past as prologue, if Bush had found himself in Gore's position in 2000, he would've taken this country down that crisis road without hesitation.
    Sure, but much like Gore, he was only looking at his own interests. Gore probably took a longer term view.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Amen.
    Are you trying to prove my theory wrong that everyone doesn't have to have a religion of some sort?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    It looks like it might be an interesting read, but I'm not sure how much reliability one could place on conclusions drawn from it.
    Same can be said for any published text from religious to the Daily Mail.

    I'm a bit behind on my political reading, though. I still haven't made it to Bushworld yet.
    No wonder you play both sides against the middle.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I guess we see that one differently. In my view, if one was truly looking out for the interest of the electorate, taking things down that road in their interest wouldn't be a bad thing. The problem is that I don't buy that either Gore or Bush care about the electorate deep down.
    Who said anything about the electorate? While they may pay the ultimate price as an aftershock of a constitutional crisis of that magnitude, it's the disassembly of our federal government structure which concerns me most. The only real difference between a Bush government and a disassembled federal government is that there is no visible junta military controlling every Main St.
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