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  1.    #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    http://www.webbyawards.com/webbys/specialwin.php


    The Webby Lifetime Achievement Award: Former Vice President Al Gore

    Setting the record straight on one of recent history's most persistent political myths, The Webby Awards will present Former Vice President Al Gore with The Webby Lifetime Achievement Award in recognition of the pivotal role he has played in the development of the internet over the past three decades. Vint Cerf, widely credited as one of the "fathers of the internet," will present Vice President Gore with the award.


    Also -- the tobacco stuff: to focus on a modest inconsistency or flaw in a man who has lead an exemplative, visionary life, is something that the GOP destruction machine has refined as a particular skill.

    No one is perfect. Not even Mother Teresa (as we learned recently).

    We all do the best we can and deserve to be apreciated or condemned based on the total ledger.

    Gore has an extraordinary amount to be proud of.

    Can junior say the same ??
    Great posts Barye. And while I only dealt with Vint on some business matters I had a feeling he'd be gracious enough to do something like present Al Gore with a well desrved award. I cannot wait to see the neocon hate machine spin this into something else though.

    Young neo...care to get things rolling? Any more drivel you want to fabricate for us all?
  2. gojeda's Avatar
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    #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Tell that to the families that have lost loved ones.
    Tell the families what exactly?

    You do not think the soldiers, and the families of those soldiers, know that when someone is a soldier in the military - there is the possibility of getting hurt or dying in a war? You don't think they know all this when they signed on the dotted line?

    Again, what is your point here?

    He and his cronies lied their way into this war and are still lying.
    Post proof please.

    Bush just recently lied about the disbandment of the Iraqi Army and claimed he knew nothing about the plan to do so. Luckily Paul Bremer made it quite clear that Bush knew well before they invaded that they would disband the army. As a result of this horrifically arrogant and stupid decision thousands of lives have been lost. Bush lied, people died. No sound bytes needed.
    The Bremer letters were inconclusive. Bush, generically and ambiguously, told Bremer that he has "full support and confidence" because of his "positive and significant" impact. However, there was nothing in those letters explicitly indicating that Bush knew, much less blessed, the disbanding of the Iraqi army. Powell did not know of this policy. Rice, Bush's most trusted person, did not know of it either.

    Poor communication? Yes. A mistake disband the army? Absolutely. Lying? I don't think so.

    I have criticized Bush, in other circles, regarding how he handled certain aspects of the war. This was one of those things I had a problem with.

    -Gore's grew up in a state where tobacco farming was a staple.
    Yes....so?

    You see by surrounding the story with context (something you clearly loathe) one can form a more informed opinion as to what happened.
    The context does not intrinsically change the hypocrisy of the story.

    Again, a politican takes money from big tobacco while campaiging against them, is hypocrisy no matter how one tries to rationalize it.

    The fact that the family has a long history in tobacco is superfluous. It matters little to the central point of the story whether the family was in tobacco or not. It doesn't magically make things "OK" or even "understandable".

    I think if he could rewind the clock he would have reacted much faster and shut off that money (which was nominal amounts compared to what the GOP has collected from the tobacco PACs lately).
    He could have acted by merely making a phone call.

    Incidently the GOP now receives 75% of all tobacco related contributions, up from 51% since 1990.
    I do not criticize Gore for taking tobacco money. I criticize Gore for taking tobacco money with one hand and stabbing them in the back with the other.

    Because for those of us that aren't necon's and knew he did in fact lead several iniatives in congress that helped the internet get off the ground I knew what he meant. He did not mean that he "invented the internet" but rather that he led the way towards its creation while in congress: which is exactly what he did.
    Gore, and Congress, had about as much to do with the creation of the Internet about as much as I have to do with the space shuttle program.

    And then he'd remind us all that he was the "father of the internet". The last I dealt with him he moved to MCI in the mid-90s so I could be wrong....but at least I got his name right.
    Vint - indeed it is.

    I want to correct myself on another point, as I wanted to previously refer to Tim Berners Lee - the father of the World Wide Web, and not Vint Cerf.

    So what I was trying to say is that it would be ridiculous for Tim Berners Lee to claim that he "took initiatives to create the Internet", imagine how ridiculous it is for Gore to actually make the same claim.

    Context, young neo, context. We went to war with substantially fewer allies then what we had when his old made went to war.
    My point is, and remains, that you were devaluing these small countries for sending what little support they could muster.

    Given France's record on the battlefield, I am rather glad they stayed home.

    Well only a neocon would know. Oil was part of it to be sure.
    There were many components. The fact of the matter is that the Middle East is important, not only for us, but for the rest of the world, primarily because it produces oil. However, there was the issue of stability in the region, protecting allies, and confronting radicalism.

    But perhaps you can tell us how neocon's wanted to spread "freedrom and democracy" to the Iraqi people?
    Last I checked, there were 50,000,000 more people who are free today than there was not so long ago.

    Please enlighten us....oh and while you're doing so, please cite one sentence Bush uttered about "bringing freedeom to the Iraqi people" prior to the invasion.
    "America believes that all people are entitled to hope and human rights, to the non-negotiable demands of human dignity. People everywhere prefer freedom to slavery; prosperity to squalor; self-government to the rule of terror and torture. America is a friend to the people of Iraq. Our demands are directed only at the regime that enslaves them and threatens us. When these demands are met, the first and greatest benefit will come to Iraqi men, women and children. The oppression of Kurds, Assyrians, Turkomans, Shi'a, Sunnis and others will be lifted. The long captivity of Iraq will end, and an era of new hope will begin.

    Iraq is a land rich in culture, resources, and talent. Freed from the weight of oppression, Iraq's people will be able to share in the progress and prosperity of our time. If military action is necessary, the United States and our allies will help the Iraqi people rebuild their economy, and create the institutions of liberty in a unified Iraq at peace with its neighbors."

    - October 7, 2002

    Semantics in some ways, but I am certain once they were deemed POWs (as I said below), they were to be treated as POWs under the Geneva Convention.
    I still don't know where you are trying to go with this.

    Oh c'mon neo...you know you're a neoconservative. Please stop denying the hate within you.
    Nope...Reagan Republican.

    Centrist. Moderate. Seems to me you're spitting hairs here to make whatever the he!! point you're trying to make. But the energy I've expended is simply because I don't accept your neocon definition of a liberal.
    It is not a definition devised by any one group. It is something that has been formulated over the years by many in the political science scene.

    You are a moderate liberal. Your statements and your reactions say as much.

    That works out well because I'm not trying to align myself with the "conservative base" anyway...even though you insist on purporting that I am.
    I never claimed you were trying to align yourself with the conservative base (or anyone else for that matter). I am merely pointing out to you who would buy, and not buy, into your line of reasoning and why.

    I am a fiscal conservative...
    New York Democrats are fiscal conservatives as well. Yea....and?

    but realize the GOP has not been fiscally conservative in in a very very long time.
    A fair point.

    I've also said that perhaps the fed could set the maximum time for which an abortion can legally occur and only discussed the idea that states may have some autonomy on setting the conditions in which abortions occur.
    A pro-lifer would not accept this.

    Oh yes...of course...IN THE MIDDLE.
    You are in the middle, just left of center.

    Don't you have a young republiscum goose stepping rehearsal you need to be at soon? This is getting so so tiring arguing with what amounts to a brick wall.
    Like I said, I don't have a problem accepting the fact that you are a moderate liberal....you do.
  3.    #183  
    Actually I'm a centrist-libertarian. I'll be changing my userID accordingly.

    Oh and...will you be attending the webbys to help Vint hand Al his award?

    I think Barye has summed things up quite nicely about Gore and tobacco. Go spin some more hate elsewhere please.
  4. gojeda's Avatar
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    #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    http://www.webbyawards.com/webbys/specialwin.php

    The Webby Lifetime Achievement Award: Former Vice President Al Gore

    Setting the record straight on one of recent history's most persistent political myths, The Webby Awards will present Former Vice President Al Gore with The Webby Lifetime Achievement Award in recognition of the pivotal role he has played in the development of the internet over the past three decades. Vint Cerf, widely credited as one of the "fathers of the internet," will present Vice President Gore with the award.
    They are also giving awards to David Bowie and the Beastie Boys. I suppose they have played an integral part of the Internet as well?

    Also -- the tobacco stuff: to focus on a modest inconsistency or flaw in a man who has lead an exemplative, visionary life, is something that the GOP destruction machine has refined as a particular skill.
    If it were only "one" modest inconsistency, I would say you are right. However Gore's credibility on other issues remains, at best, suspect on subjects ranging from his "Green" agenda to his mythical involvement in the creation of the nation's strategic reserves.

    He is, after all, a diary industry expert ever since he spent the night on a diary farm in Wisconsin a few years back.

    I hear he penned the Declaration of Independence as well.

    No one is perfect. Not even Mother Teresa (as we learned recently).
    Indeed she wasn't.

    However if one cannot distinguish the circumstance whereas a person is struggling to make the right spiritual choices in his/her moment of doubt, and a circumstance when a person is knowningly engaging in duplicitous behavior, then I suspect there are greater difficulties in reaching an understanding than previously thought.

    We all do the best we can and deserve to be apreciated or condemned based on the total ledger.
    Indeed.

    Gore has an extraordinary amount to be proud of.
    And quite a bit to be ashamed of as well.

    Can junior say the same ??
    An argument can be made either way. I am not going to deify a man while demonizing the other.

    Neither man is exceptional - truth be told.
    Last edited by gojeda; 10/02/2007 at 03:08 PM.
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    For anyone interested there are some pretty cool sites that test your political leanings. I took one at http://www.okcupid.com/politics and ended being pegged as a centrist-libertarian - somewhere around the knot in Trump's necktie. Basically consistent with what I've said all along - I am an economic conservative and lean left socially. I like their chart and how they map things out...its a bit more complicated than just plopping people into either "conservative" or "liberal" buckets.
    Hmmm

    I was pegged as a Social Liberal and an Economic Moderate - summarized as a Centrist with a "very well-developed sense of Right and Wrong and believe in economic fairness"

    Probably not altogether accurate. Likely because 1) I answer questions literally, not based on what the asker is probably asking; and 2) neutral was not an option on several questions.

    I'm in Robert Redford's head:
  6.    #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Hmmm

    I was pegged as a Social Liberal and an Economic Moderate - summarized as a Centrist with a "very well-developed sense of Right and Wrong and believe in economic fairness"

    Probably not altogether accurate. Likely because 1) I answer questions literally, not based on what the asker is probably asking; and 2) neutral was not an option on several questions.

    I'm in Robert Redford's head:
    Don't sell yourself short Shop. I think you're clearly further right than me but I enjoy discussions with you because you are well grounded and I think perhaps more of a centrist than you give yourself credit for. But Robert Redford? Dunno about that one!

    BTW - I don't think these tests are dead on accurate either. Not sure how they could be. I was more intriqued with their graph at the end that that shows you as being something other than simply a "conservative" or a "liberal".
  7. gatorray's Avatar
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    #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    So then neo, what is gatorray? Is he a liberal?
    According to that website:

    You are best described as a:

    Centrist
  8.    #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Hmmm

    I was pegged as a Social Liberal and an Economic Moderate - summarized as a Centrist with a "very well-developed sense of Right and Wrong and believe in economic fairness"

    Probably not altogether accurate. Likely because 1) I answer questions literally, not based on what the asker is probably asking; and 2) neutral was not an option on several questions.

    I'm in Robert Redford's head:
    Try this one Shop. www.politicalcompass.org I just did it and it came out pretty much dead on as the first one. I'm curious to see if there are differences in your case.

    Here is my graph from this site:
  9. gatorray's Avatar
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    #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Try this one Shop. www.politicalcompass.org I just did it and it came out pretty much dead on as the first one. I'm curious to see if there are differences in your case.

    Here is my graph from this site:
    Moderateinny....I place just below you on the center line. I am closer to anarchy than you are.
  10.    #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorray View Post
    Moderateinny....I place just below you on the center line. I am closer to anarchy than you are.
    Of course you did. Based on your post to neo I could see our views are quite similar. Must a vet thing.
  11. gojeda's Avatar
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    #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Hmmm

    I was pegged as a Social Liberal and an Economic Moderate - summarized as a Centrist with a "very well-developed sense of Right and Wrong and believe in economic fairness"

    Probably not altogether accurate. Likely because 1) I answer questions literally, not based on what the asker is probably asking; and 2) neutral was not an option on several questions.

    I'm in Robert Redford's head:
    Indeed, its accuracy is questionable, and the descriptions for who you are are virtually the same.

    For me, it said: Republican (61e/31s) - You exhibit a very well-developed sense of Right and Wrong and believe in economic fairness.

    A few of the questions were rather ambiguous, for one, and the answers I wanted to give could not be reflected in the multiple choice nature of the test.

    It managed to peg me pretty well though. I am directly to the right of the JP2's raised hand, right on Reagan's lapel.

    On the ideology scale - at the 10 o'clock position just outside the centrist circle.

    That centrist circle is *way* too big and a few of those people in the pictures are out of place.

    Not much to take stock in, but entertaining enough for a chuckle.

    I took the politicalcompass.org test as well...



    The questions from this website were pretty poor. I found a few of them to be quite "leading".

    Apparently, they think I am most like Angela Merkel.
    Last edited by gojeda; 10/03/2007 at 03:31 AM.
  12. #192  
    Can't complain. With Social Liberal (90% permissive) and Economic Liberal (15% permissive) and 15e/90s landed me on the right temple of

    I can live with that.

    Anyone else notice the proximity of bin Laden to Falwell?
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Try this one Shop. www.politicalcompass.org I just did it and it came out pretty much dead on as the first one. I'm curious to see if there are differences in your case.

    Here is my graph from this site:
    I ended up in the same quadrant (more to the left his time)

    Here's my graph: http://www.politicalcompass.org/prin...0.62&soc=-3.18

    Once again, I had difficulty with questions. For example:

    Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care .
    The statement does not appreciate what I believe are inflated costs based on the long-standing practice of third party payment.

    Good parents sometimes have to spank their children.
    This statement fails to distinguish between the moral issue of whether spanking is appropriate, and the self-control issue of whether a parent has to spank.

    Sex outside marriage is usually immoral.
    The use of the term "usually" clouds the issue in my mind. If I find that sex outside of marriage is never immoral, how do I answer?
  14.    #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    I ended up in the same quadrant (more to the left his time)

    Here's my graph: http://www.politicalcompass.org/prin...0.62&soc=-3.18

    Once again, I had difficulty with questions. For example:

    Those with the ability to pay should have the right to higher standards of medical care .
    The statement does not appreciate what I believe are inflated costs based on the long-standing practice of third party payment.

    Good parents sometimes have to spank their children.
    This statement fails to distinguish between the moral issue of whether spanking is appropriate, and the self-control issue of whether a parent has to spank.

    Sex outside marriage is usually immoral.
    The use of the term "usually" clouds the issue in my mind. If I find that sex outside of marriage is never immoral, how do I answer?
    Yea. I would think the questions could have been better worded.

    Good fun nonetheless. It seems like the first one got gatorray, gojeda, and lifes2short pretty close. Although I was hoping to be pegged as more of an anarchist like gatorray.
  15. #195  
    I'm on Adam Sandler's left eye (guess I'm the closest to anarchy so far ). I noticed the Falwell-Osama proximity (and think it's pretty accurate). OTOH, I also noticed Bushie is far less right than some would make him out to be.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16.    #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I'm on Adam Sandler's left eye (guess I'm the closest to anarchy so far ). I noticed the Falwell-Osama proximity (and think it's pretty accurate). OTOH, I also noticed Bushie is far less right than some would make him out to be.
    I'm not that surprised. I've often wondered if he were extreme as the cabinet he surrounded himself with.
  17. #197  
    I'm actually surprised where they rate me -- I'm mostly thought of as a conservative.

    (BTW -- the immigration question completely misses where one can be on this issue !)

    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Can't complain. With Social Liberal (90% permissive) and Economic Liberal (15% permissive) and 15e/90s landed me on the right temple of

    I can live with that.

    Anyone else notice the proximity of bin Laden to Falwell?
    I can't complain either. Social Moderate/Economic Liberal. According to this, I'm a Centrist/Democrat, right on Kerry's chin. I'm not surprised. ........Can't we all just get along? hahaha

    As far as the other test: http://www.politicalcompass.org/prin...4.38&soc=-4.46
    So if i'm understanding this material..... would that make my views akin to.....Robin Hood? You know rob from the rich give to the poor.....considering I'm suppose to have anarchist tendencies? hmmm
    Last edited by Iago; 10/03/2007 at 12:52 PM.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I'm actually surprised where they rate me -- I'm mostly thought of as a conservative.
    By whom? That's the rub with right/left or conservative/liberal. It only means something relative to something else. I'd say that if you're thought of by your peer group(s) as conservative, you either 1) misrepresent your views here, 2) misrepresent your views with them, or 3) they are fairly far on the liberal spectrum.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    By whom? That's the rub with right/left or conservative/liberal. It only means something relative to something else. I'd say that if you're thought of by your peer group(s) as conservative, you either 1) misrepresent your views here, 2) misrepresent your views with them, or 3) they are fairly far on the liberal spectrum.
    or: 4) yourself


    its definitely 3 -- and somewhat 4

    I am absolutely seen as almost a DLC democrat by my peers -- for my political practicality, and for my support of the Clintons

    I'm a Nader hater -- my peers worked for and voted for him.

    They now support and/or work for Kucinich and Gravel (who I've helped modestly as a personal favor) -- where as I would not have trouble if Hillary won the nomination.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
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