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  1. #101  
    Not that I think it's quite at the same level, but I'm sure that it was 'normal and natural' for Jeffery Dahmer to want to kill and eat people from his perspective, but that doesn't mean it's 'normal and natural' for society as a whole. By that same token, I can't see how one could argue that not having any desire to look at porn is abnormal and unnatural (which is the implication of porn being 'normal and natural' on a societal level).
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #102  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    Question from a female perspective: Where do you (meaning you generally, not you, homer only) draw the line at what is "normal" and "natural"? Viewing porn daily? Viewing porn once a month? Never leaving your computer?
    Interesting question. I don't think there is a set standard. It varies from person to person. Personally, I'm not happy unless I've wacked off at least 7-8 times a day.
    What if your girlfriend/spouse doesn't like it? Too bad?
    Nine times out of ten, the spouse isn't aware she has a masturbator on her hands (pun intended). If she is, she has two choices: deal with it or set an ultimatum (and be fully prepared to axe the relationship). Any man that claims he doesn't masturbate is a liar. Some relationships take the "don't ask, don't tell" policy; in others, both accept it. It's the relationships where the woman is intolerant that forces the man to lie if he wants to stay in it (why he would, given the circumstances, is beyond me). I'm lucky, in that my wife considers it rather flattering that she's on my mind as much as she is (not to mention that she doesn't feel pressured to match my libido).

    The earlier discussions about Dad's "dirty" magazines and even the Playboy interview seem (in my limited knowledge) not the same as the stuff that is available on the internet today...do we really need access to see some woman doing her dog?
    Ah, yes. Gone are the halcyon days of my youth where getting a glimpse up a classmates skirt would keep me busy for days. If there isn't an animal, midget, or santa hat involved, it can't be considered quality porn. Seriously, I'm as baffled as you as to what kind of person would be able to consider some of that porn.

    Where is the line? (And everyone PLEASE understand that I am asking honestly and not trying to start up some Porn-For-Everyone vs. Porn-Haters flame war!)
    The line starts when it invades a person's life to the point where they are unable to function "normally." Basically, it's a personal choice. If they feel guilty and/or are unable to cope with themselves, they've crossed the "line." In rare cases, someone may not feel they have a problem, but a judge decides they do. The judge wins. So, to ammend my previous statement, barring social intervention, the "line" is drawn by the individual.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  3. #103  
    Many thanks to all of you fellows for your thoughtful and honest replies. And to think I was afraid of your responses!!

    The following from d-r sums up what I think is generally most women's opposition to porn:

    Originally posted by ****-richardson

    I'm lucky, in that my wife considers it rather flattering that she's on my mind as much as she is (not to mention that she doesn't feel pressured to match my libido).
    (Mind you, this question is not only for ****-r)
    First, how is it that your significant other can be "on your mind" when you're looking at someone else?
    Second, how do you know she doesn't WANT to match your libido? (I mean, c'mon guys, we like it, too!!)
  4. #104  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    Many thanks to all of you fellows for your thoughtful and honest replies. And to think I was afraid of your responses!!

    The following from d-r sums up what I think is generally most women's opposition to porn:



    (Mind you, this question is not only for ****-r)
    First, how is it that your significant other can be "on your mind" when you're looking at someone else?
    Sorry, I was dealing with masturbation only. Looking doesn't do it for me as much anymore. I'd rather concentrate on things she's actually done. It's much more vivid and realistic than trying to imagine Faith Hill calling me up on the phone saying, "Hey, big boy. I've been thinking of you." In that regard, I agree with Toby. Porn has been rather pointless to me since I earned my wedding ring.

    Second, how do you know she doesn't WANT to match your libido? (I mean, c'mon guys, we like it, too!!)
    She's tried. I'm young. The tables will be turned.
    Last edited by dick-richardson; 06/05/2001 at 10:53 AM.
    -Joshua
    I've decided to become enigmatic.
  5. #105  
    generally, not you, homer only) draw the line at what is "normal" and "natural"? Viewing porn daily? Viewing porn once a month? Never leaving your computer? What if your girlfriend/spouse doesn't like it? Too bad?
    I think PDAEnvy put it nicely.

    Basically, ther is no universal 'line'. It is a very individual thing. Basically, if your personal behavior does not affect others in a detrimental way, then no one should be arrogant enough as to pass judgement on you.

    If it is detrimental to yourself in a way that others notice, then they certainly should see if they can help, but not judge.

    First, how is it that your significant other can be "on your mind" when you're looking at someone else?
    Women and men treat sex completely different. I can't speak for all men, but for a lot of men (my self included) porn is just another part of being a male. It isn't a replacement for a loving relationship nor does it compete with a loving relationship.

    My wife reads romance novels all of the time. I linger over the Victoria's Secret Catalog. Just adds some variety to life.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  6. #106  
    Originally posted by homer

    Women and men treat sex completely different. I can't speak for all men, but for a lot of men (my self included) porn is just another part of being a male. It isn't a replacement for a loving relationship nor does it compete with a loving relationship.
    I agree that women and men treat sex in very different ways. My question there went more to the specific statement of d-r, wherein he said his wife was flattered b/c he was thinking of her...I was confused by his "thinking of her" while looking at picture of someone else. He clarified and said he was talking about masturbation only--evidently no pics involved.

    Does the fact that "men look at porn" mean "porn is just another part of being a male?" Isn't that sort of self-serving and/or self-fulfilling? (Pun intended )
  7. #107  
    Originally posted by homer

    Basically, if your personal behavior does not affect others in a detrimental way, then no one should be arrogant enough as to pass judgement on you.
    I pretty much agree with this statment, but I would suspect that you and I would differ over what would be a detrimental effect on someone else.

    Obviously, if someone expects someone else to reinact and/or participate in something harmful b/c they saw it on www.detrimentalsex.com, that wouldn't be good. What about time spent? Or if someone feels neglected b/c the other person spends all their sexual time/energy with porn? Or maybe even how it can affect the other person's sense of self-worth...?
  8. #108  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    Does the fact that "men look at porn" mean "porn is just another part of being a male?" Isn't that sort of self-serving and/or self-fulfilling? (Pun intended )
    Yes, it is (in both ways). Of course, when the dominant societal attitudes are influenced by the "Me Generation", what do you expect?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  9. #109  
    Originally posted by ****-richardson

    She's tried. I'm young. The tables will be turned.
    Nope, medical powers-that-be are spending lots on curing male impotence and nothing on helping us b******...I mean, ladies, with our PMS mood swings.

    Fixing PMS might negate the need for Viagara (kidding...I'm kidding!!)

    Also, from other posts of yours that I've seen, I thought you were in your late 20's early 30's. Don't guys peak out at 18?
  10. #110  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    Also, from other posts of yours that I've seen, I thought you were in your late 20's early 30's. Don't guys peak out at 18?
    I still think that's a myth. I think that 18 is just one of the last times in a guy's life where he has the time and energy to spend that much time on it. If I had as much free time now as I did then, I don't think there would be much difference.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  11. #111  
    Originally posted by Toby


    I still think that's a myth
    Like the "all men look at porn" and its converse, "to be a man you must look at porn" myths?
  12. #112  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    Like the "all men look at porn" and its converse, "to be a man you must look at porn" myths?
    Yeah, I think those are myths too, created by men who want to rationalize their porn fixations. This isn't a new thing, though.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13. #113  
    Originally posted by Toby


    Yeah, I think those are myths too, created by men who want to rationalize their porn fixations. This isn't a new thing, though.
    Well, I guess I know that men (generally speaking) are more turned on by visual things than women. Although, without giving you TMI, I can say that I'm sure I've looked at the cover of my husband's Men's Journals with more than a passing glance. But I'm more turned on by the smell of my husband's neck or to see him working out in the yard than by looking at the private parts of some stranger.
  14. #114  
    How did I miss THIS thread.... So much to process, so little time....
    "That IS a Palm III form-factor in my pocket, AND I'm happy to see you...."
  15. #115  
    Originally posted by Slot_Machine
    How did I miss THIS thread....
    I know what you mean .... I guess you could say this thread's "got legs," eh?....
    "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein
  16. #116  
    Originally posted by icthus
    It's also notable to consider the Christian belief along with that; that people are naturally evil, and therefore their normal and natural desires are evil. As a Christian theologian, his statement that it is normal and natural wouldn't have been in anyway justifying it; rather, it would have been condeming.
    Methinks I smell the feminine perspective herein.... (And there's nothing wrong w/that -- I love the scent of a woman, as everyone knows....)
    Anyway, I think Peck touches on that in one of his books -- that it's old Greek mythology, or something; and I believe he states it's largely discounted / discredited in modern times / thinking / theory. I'll admit it's kind of scary that it can be seen to have even a grain of truth, though -- and much more, if you're willing to "admit it into evidence."
    I'm not, though, despite Peck's persistent admonition that it's IMPORTANT to see that "Life is Difficult," his ultra-famous 1st sentence from his ultra-famous 1st book. And it's IMPORTANT to fight AGAINST our impulse(s) (natural or unnatural -- I guess that will always be the question) for pleasure.
    STILL, almost ALL we know as humans is GUIDED by "the pleasure principle" -- we gravitate toward + and away from - otherwise we'd just walk right out in front of cars, I guess.
    MY QUESTION TO GOD, IN ANSWER TO PECK'S BOOK, AND ALL OF HIS WORKS (AND TO PECK, WHICH I DON'T THINK HE'S EVER ANSWERED) WOULD BE:
    IF IGNORANCE IS BLISS -- WHY SHOULD IT BE SO?
    WHY IS LEARNING, ACHIEVING, "DOING THE RIGHT THING," ETC. DIFFICULT?
    SHOULDN'T IT BE THE OPPOSITE?
    (With apologies to the late, great Douglas Adams, whose every book I own, I believe -- but not yet read any! ... I could see some author calling this Design of the Universe ... just STUPID!)
    "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein
  17. #117  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    Well, I guess I know that men (generally speaking) are more turned on by visual things than women. <snip> But I'm more turned on by <snip>
    I wanted to respond to many of the last 10 or so responses either you made or were made to you -- I hope they work up a "1-click" way to do this in the future. (Or multi-click & drag, or something.)
    But I thought many of the answers given were excellent, so I also didn't have to bother.
    I tend to fall back on John Gray's "Mars & Venus" materials (all of his books, not just the #1 one, tho reading that's better than nothing, and more than most people prob. living before he wrote learned about the geners in their lifetimes) for the major diff. between the genders. I find them pretty unequaled.
    I grew up in an atrocious, hideous time (pre-John Gray) when people were trying to pretend MEN AND WOMEN ARE THE SAME. GOD HELP YOU if you actually SAID IT OUT LOUD for a decade or two there.
    You may have seen a recent "60 Min." (or other show -- many covered it) where some poor young lad was "turned into a girl" because of a medical problem at his birth -- but he has the spirit of a male inside him, and "it just didn't take." This, despite a famous MD's insistence that "the operation was a success," the boy became a girl, etc. and perpetual lies for another couple dozen years.
    NOW PEOPLE REALIZE that men & women are diff., thank God. I fought society all my life to make this case. I was called stupid, insulted, "just a dumb kid," etc. as I lived through "***** Time" (where, coincidentally, the entire stupid society was doing drugs like there was no tomorrow ... a connection?), trying to get the world to see clearly.
    I hope God throws me a big "Thank You" when I get to Heaven, as the world doesn't tend to be thankful for much.

    Something CRUCIAL to Gray's work, though, that most people seem to miss is NOT TO DEMONIZE THE OTHER GENDER JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE DIFF.
    "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein
  18. #118  
    Well, perhaps the reasons people go WITH their impulses (what FEEEEELS good) instead of going against them in certain causes is 2 things:

    1) "ME.' No, I'm not talking about some crappy version of Windows, it's that people seem to think far more about themselves this day in age. I bet "your lady" wouldn't be too happy now if she found "her man" discussing this. (Sorry bkbk, I just had to say that! ) It shows a sense of loyalty to your "partner."

    2) Immediate Gratification. Ever notice how things seem more rewarding when you go against your immediate desires and wait? I'm guessing sex is the same way. The more you wait, (the more you EARN it) , the more you appreciate it. Kind of like the phrase "Honest money goes further."
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"
  19. #119  
    Yes, I believe I can see a lot of this stuff.
    I think the question being begged is:
    Is This The Way It's Meant To Be?
    This begs a ton of other q's, of course:
    Is there a God?
    (2 possible branches)
    If there's a God, do we REALLY have Free Will -- or is it "free, as long as you make God happy"?
    Is evolution "real" and "absolute" -- or could things have turned out another way?
    Which things?
    Which way(s)?
    Just because (any given) society "evolved" this way -- was it "fate"?
    Can it be changed -- now?
    Ever?
    Anytime we wish?

    As I say, there are a ton.
    Some in the ton, many people don't want to face -- and they MEAN IT.
    And some of these people have guns. And some will shoot you just because "their boss" told them to, and they have a license to kill. And how DARE you suggest a concept "diff" from what the gunman w/the boss "likes."
    I hate to seem like I'm always going back to the neo-Nazism of the Guiliani regime here in NYC -- but NO PORN is a big part of what he's about.
    Yeah, the guy currently cheating on his wife all over the headlines. RESTRAINING ORDERS. DIVORCE. "POISINING THE KIDS' MINDS" AGAINST THE OTHER PARENT.
    Uh ... and this is better than porn?
    YOU are a better person than "those pornographers"?
    Uh ... just how, exactly?

    A key question neither gender (nor church, state or any other inst.) ever seems to want to contemplate very much is:
    Are women "naturally" monogamous?
    Are men "naturally" not?

    You're right; I wouldn't DARE even bring up these Qs in front of my current lady. But (I don't think) not because I'm a "bad person," or the Qs are "invalid" or "nonsensical" etc.
    It's just that there is such a TIDAL WAVE of opposition, it's better to remain anonymous.
    (I don't know what I'd do w/out the Web; I hope we can always keep it relatively anonymous.)

    I noted "current" lady.
    How many have I had?
    Was it enough?
    Will there be more?
    Was it too many?
    Can I go back and change it?
    If I "go back" to "my 1st one," does that ... absolve me ... of something? to someone? for some reason?
    WOMEN, TOO:
    Should they date multiple guys at once?
    Should they pay for dinner?
    Should they drive?
    If they NEVER intend to have sex w/you ... should they TELL YOU on the 1st date?
    Etc.

    MUCH OF THESE ARGUMENTS ARE FINANCIAL.
    (I was pretty irked at Dr. Peck in one of his books -- "Civility Re-Discovered," I think it's titled, or sub-titled -- where it was CLEAR that his SUBCONSCIOUS was TRYING for about 1/2 of the book to FINALLY get him to WRITE DOWN what was at the forefront of the point he was TRYING to make: THAT A LOT OF LIFE IS DETERMINED BY THE FINANCIAL ASPECT.)
    MUCH OF LIFE ITSELF IS FORCED UPON US.
    We're born AGAINST OUR WILL (or at least negligent of it).
    We're IN DEBT UP TO OUR EARS to our parents (IF we're LUCKY; if not, our lives are MUCH harder) for MANY YEARS.
    Do we "OWE THEM" for this?
    WHAT do we "OWE THEM" for this?
    WHAT do they "OWE US" for bringing us here -- esp. if "here" is not exactly a happy place / enviornment / home?
    Etc.

    THE MATTER OF CHOICE.
    What IS choice?
    Can you CHOOSE not to READ? Of course, you CAN. But would anyone in their right mind NOT?
    BUT YOU CAN'T EVEN CHOOSE not to BREATHE, that's how important "God" (or ... SOMEone) made it.
    Can you CHOOSE to have sex?
    Really? When? With whom? How often?
    Is that okay? With whom? The gov't.? Must you get a certificate 1st?
    W/only 1 person?
    1 gender?
    No animals?
    (Naaaaah! -- couldn't resist.)
    Is it "okay" if you're insulted about it?
    Really? When? With whom? How often?
    Should people of different faiths / colors / countries marry? Or only have sex?

    THE NATURE OF ILLUSION.
    This is prob. the key to it all, and why Peck DEFINED (the ONLY definition I've EVER seen!) MENTAL HEALTH as:
    "Ongoing Dedication to Reality at All Costs."
    CANDY TASTES DANDY -- but it's NOT GOOD FOR YOU; it's an illusion!
    Alcohol, ditto.
    (Aristotle's definition of "GOOD FOR YOU": When it's ALWAYS good for you -- like fruit, vegetables and exercise. NOT alcohol, candy and drugs.)
    Is it GOOD for me not to READ, or is it an illusion?
    Is laziness real?
    Is evil real?
    Is the Devil real?
    (Per "The Usual Suspects" -- "The Greatest Trick The Devil Ever Played Was Conning The World Into Believing He's Not Real." Are those "just movie words"? Or are they real?)
    Etc.

    "GRAY AREAS"
    MUCH of the world (it is often missed) is B&W!
    (As I hoped the DIGITALIZATION of almost EVERYthing has resoundingly proved.)
    But there REALLY IS gray.
    The diff., usually, is WHETHER OR NOT "UNKNOWN VARIABLES" ARE INVOLVED.
    Since we're JUST FINALLY STARTING to understand THAT MEN & WOMEN REALLY ARE DIFF., we're FINALLY dispensing w/a lot of the unknown variables that resulted in lots of "gray areas" that kept us ignorant for milennia.
    More Qs, then:
    What do men / women like?
    Is what they like GOOD -- for them, indiv? For society, indiv? For the World At Large? For the perpetuity of history? (And is THAT even important?)
    Are humans even important?
    (Most people just auto. declare we are, and that as an article of faith we can willy-nilly massacre ALL THE FISH, because they're NOT really animals -- ask PETA!)

    Plenty of other stuff, too.
    And I'm just throwing this all out there (gee, what gave it away?) -- not even trying to integrate it or synthesize it into a useful body of knowledge, which takes even more time & effort.
    Once you're out of college, sadly, there's PRECIOUS LITTLE time or energy expended to answer (OR EVEN LOOK AT, RECONSIDER, CONTEMPLATE, ETC.) any of them.

    Hopefully, PDAs (and robots) will free people from the drudgery of daily work -- and we'll finally (all of us ... even those of us long out of college, who should be included in the dialogue) begin to work on these questions earnestly.
    Last edited by bkbk; 06/05/2001 at 11:12 PM.
    "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds." -- Albert Einstein
  20. #120  
    You sounded just like a Greek philosopher. Whoever you're quoting has asked some deep questions I don't think I can answer without going further into my mind than I feel comfortable with right now. (hey, I'm being honest!):eed:

    Nonetheless, I'll try and reply.

    You also have to keep in mind that humans are creatures who value ignorance. We have a quest for knowledge, but always want to fall to the "comfort" of our own thoughts so that we feel we have control.

    That is why, we have "etiquette" and "gender" roles on the more petty scale. On a larger scale, that's why we have religion: to explain the unexplained. I do feel that there will never be a day where man can answer every question there is with pure fact. There are things that happen that we cannot explain. When these things happen, we often rationalize with a belief that "comforts" us, and gives us some "reassurance" of our purpose. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. We can only look at things in our perception. What existed before the universe? You cannot answer that question truthfully other than "I don't know."

    It goes back to saying that we feel we have a purpose on the earth: to help our fellow mankind. Most of us are born slaves by our own will. We feel we need to make some force out there "happy."

    -------

    Regardless of what your opinions are, the usual reason for avoiding temptation, is the reward afterwards, which is far greater. I know I would not feel the same if I simply stole my Visor, instead of working to get it. The same goes for sex. While I cannot say this from a first-hand experience, you will most likely become jaded (vocab word of the day! ) if you have it too often. However, our culture seems to focus on "immediate gratification" as opposed to waiting for it.

    If Pornography keeps you from abusing your partner, then it is helpful. However, it shows a certain loyalty to your partner if you can remain faithful to them, and not fantasize physically about someone else. It's a little thing that depending on the person, can make an enormous difference.

    Personally, I think our quest is for true happiness & existence.


    Whew... I'm done.

    I actually made this all up. Not bad... for me!?

    ----

    Note to bkbk , I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Just trying to clarify!
    <b><font size=1 color=teal>"Sorry about the whole thing about losing your life savings, but that Palmpilot is property of Enron, so please give it back"

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