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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The legality of the immigrants is a red herring, and one that would suddenly go away if the government legalized those already present, and relaxed immigration laws to allow free movement.

    Surur
    Sure it would. Wave a magic wand and puff....problem solved. Following this line of reasoning, why don’t we use that magic wand and legalize drugs so we would no longer have any drug addicts.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Sure it would. Wave a magic wand and puff....problem solved. Following this line of reasoning, why don’t we use that magic wand and legalize drugs so we would no longer have any drug addicts.
    Actually while your comment was intended to be sarchastic, I know numerous law enforcement officers who think that establishing red light districts in cities and legalizing certain drugs within them would be vastly cheaper and more effective than the approach we've taken to date. The theory being that more money could be spent on prevention rather than enforcement yet yield a savings on both police resources and overall tax dollars.

    In fact I belive libertarians support something like this as well, don't they? I've not looked into this myself in detail so while it is certainly unconventional it merits consideration since it is clear that enforcement alone does not work. Perhaps yet another misguided war with a stay-the-course philosophy requiring a serious reexamination.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Actually while your comment was intended to be sarchastic, I know numerous law enforcement officers who think that establishing red light districts in cities and legalizing certain drugs within them would be vastly cheaper and more effective than the approach we've taken to date. The theory being that more money could be spent on prevention rather than enforcement yet yield a savings on both police resources and overall tax dollars.

    In fact I belive libertarians support something like this as well, don't they? I've not looked into this myself in detail so while it is certainly unconventional it merits consideration since it is clear that enforcement alone does not work. Perhaps yet another misguided war with a stay-the-course philosophy requiring a serious reexamination.
    Officers wanting to establish red light districts? Doesn't surprise me....probably so they can visit. There I go again....being sarcastic. But yeah you’re right. If you decriminalize a particular activity than law enforcement doesn’t have to put fort the resources on that particular problem. But, society still has to deal with the effects though. That’s my point.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Sure it would. Wave a magic wand and puff....problem solved. Following this line of reasoning, why don’t we use that magic wand and legalize drugs so we would no longer have any drug addicts.
    As I'm sure you know, the criminalization of now illicit victimless activities often cause a lot more problems than the activities themselves.

    I'm sure you also know amnesties for illegal immigrants are raised rather regularly. The last step of free movement of persons in the NAFTA trade zone, or proposals like Bus's guest worker program, is all thats needed.

    Not a pipe dream after all, and no magic wand needed.

    The question is - will your objections disappear when these people are legal, or do you actually object to the people themselves?

    Surur
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Officers wanting to establish red light districts? Doesn't surprise me....probably so they can visit. There I go again....being sarcastic. But yeah you’re right. If you decriminalize a particular activity than law enforcement doesn’t have to put fort the resources on that particular problem. But, society still has to deal with the effects though. That’s my point.
    You're missing the point. The idea isn't to give police less to do, but rather to redirect vital and limited resources to do other things, such as: investigate more Republicans and put them in jail where they belong.

    Sarchastic enough of a response for you?
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    As I'm sure you know, the criminalization of now illicit victimless activities often cause a lot more problems than the activities themselves.

    I'm sure you also know amnesties for illegal immigrants are raised rather regularly. The last step of free movement of persons in the NAFTA trade zone, or proposals like Bus's guest worker program, is all thats needed.

    Not a pipe dream after all, and no magic wand needed.

    The question is - will your objections disappear when these people are legal, or do you actually object to the people themselves?

    Surur
    Why would my objections disappear just because “these people” (your words not mine) would be all of a sudden legal? The answer is no, my objections would not disappear. Not as long as the EFFECTS of adding 15 to 20 million mostly low skilled individuals effects the average tax paying citizen. You know ....the person who will wind out paying the tab.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Its a matter of legal vs illegal citizenship. Period.
    Now we have illegal citizens in this country? Did Schwarzenegger screw up again?

    AGAIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACISM. THIS IS NOT ABOUT FAIR SKIN VS DARKER SKIN. OUR FAIR-HAIRED, ENGLISH-SPEAKING ANCESTORS ENTERED LEGALLY, NOT ILLEGALLY.
    That's one grand assumption. If you'd care to validate it, I'd be glad to read it. This goes back to my original assertion that a problem undefined is not a problem for which there is a solution, yet loaded terms such as 'crisis' are thrown about without care.

    A utopic model is a ridiculous suggestion, as such a possibility can`t and doesnt exist.
    'All who enter do so legally' are your words, not mine. All = All, does it not? Words have meaning. Where's the model to achieve complete compliance?
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    You're missing the point. The idea isn't to give police less to do, but rather to redirect vital and limited resources to do other things, such as: investigate more Republicans and put them in jail where they belong.

    Sarchastic enough of a response for you?

    Hahahaha. I like the way you think.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Why would my objections disappear just because “these people” (your words not mine) would be all of a sudden legal? The answer is no, my objections would not disappear. Not as long as the EFFECTS of adding 15 to 20 million mostly low skilled individuals effects the average tax paying citizen. You know ....the person who will wind out paying the tab.
    Effects like keeping manufacturing jobs in the US and helping your trade deficit, not to mention fixing your social security crisis?

    Surur
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Effects like keeping manufacturing jobs in the US and helping your trade deficit, not to mention fixing your social security crisis?

    Surur
    Well, I won’t belabor the point with you. I think it’s pretty well established that illegal immigration is a net drain. It shifts a number of costs onto the tax paying citizen. Costs that business owner should be incurring. But if that business owner was picking up the tab, hiring illegals would no longer be beneficial to him/her. And if we made everybody legal you would still have business moving to third world countries searching for cheap labor, and social security would be decimated. The fact that we have weak-a$$ politicians, greedy self-interested business owners, and millions of willing victims, doesn’t make it the right thing to do. I would much rather live in a country that upholds its laws and principles, rather than one where the almighty dollar takes precedent over everything else.
    Last edited by Iago; 09/23/2007 at 03:53 PM.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  11.    #71  
    And what of Reciprocity?

    There is absolutely NO reciprocity in mexico`s illegal immigrant laws. IOW, They do NOT Accept illegal US citizens. Hmm. Now isn’t THAT a kicker? Why dont we adopt MEXICO`S laws regarding illegal immigration since under Mexican law, it is a felony to be an illegal alien in mexico.

    In mexico`s constitution, under the general law on population, it specifically states the country`s immigration policy. Mexico`s law demands that foreign visitors and immigrants are in the country legally, have the means to sustain themselves economically, not destined to be burdens on society of economic and social benefit to society, of good character and have no criminal records.

    Additionally, Mexican law states: immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor. Foreign visitors do not violate their visa status. Foreign visitors entering under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported. Those who aid in illegal immigration are sent to prison. Those who are deported from mexico and attempt reentry without authorization can be imprisoned for 10 years. Foreigners who overstay their visas may be imprisoned for 6 years. A penalty of 3 – 500 pesos and 2 years imprisonment will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally.


    Hmmmmm.....
  12.    #72  
    Racism- To those who state that those who are opposed to illegal immigration are racist:

    How can you be racist when you want the law applied equally to all races? An illegal immigrant is an illegal immigrant whether from Canada, mexico, the orient, the middle east or anywhere else. Hardly racist. The law does not state that some races who enter the US illegally are illegal immigrants and others are not. Any suggestion or accusation otherwise is 100% complete and utter idiocy.

    There is nothing racist about supporting legal immigration yet wanting to be ensured that law is followed and there is ordered immigration, much as MEXICO HAS.

    Using the racist card is totally disingenuous and wrong. In fact, promoting the falsehood that illegal immigration promotes racism since US citizens start wondering if members of a nationality are here legally or not, which of course is totally unfair to those who obey the law and are in the us legally. This potentially causes a backlash against LEGAL immigrants.

    So can the race card crap.
  13. #73  
    advanced societies should not take in large numbers of impoverished migrants from the 3rd world.

    This is especially true with our migrants from the south, people who are not just poor, but uneducated, and non-english speaking.

    And because they have been allowed to come in such huge numbers, their language and culture have amassed a sufficiently large critical mass to be self re-enforcing, and non-assimilationist.

    Adults come here, work, have children, and live in communities of people like themselves, and never learn english.

    Within a decade a seperate shadow society has been allowed to arise within this one. A society with its own newspapers, radio and TV stations. A society with specific political interests.

    Its now normal for phone menus to first ask for english or spanish -- its now normal for politicians to address potential spanish voters in spanish.

    I have objected to this phenomenon even as far back as when the rightwing cubans came to take over Miami and Florida. Their political control of that state has for decades prevented any normalization of relations with Cuba. And large sections of Miami cannot be navigated without speaking spanish, even 46 years after they first arrived.

    Migrants with education and talent from places like China, India, and Europe do refresh our society. Their diversity and skill enable them to easily absorb american culture -- and be absorbed by it.

    This is absolutely not the case with the millions of poor uneducated migrants that have come here since raygun's time.

    The cost of this is largely borne by the least among those already here. Those who were already poor and under educated.

    Who were the construction workers that were replaced by hispanics ?? (For example, after Katrina, junior went out of his way to enable out of state companies to hire illegal migrants rather than local New Orleans people who were desperate for a job.) Hotel and resturant workers are mostly hispanic.

    I have joked in the past that illegal hispanic immigration would have become a crisis issue a long time ago if it were journalists and politicians whose jobs were being taken away -- rather than poor, less educated americans.
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/24/2007 at 01:06 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  14.    #74  
    Welfare – welfare benefits for illegals creates a drain on the economy, and it attracts the wrong type of person to come to our country. Recall prop 187 from 1994 in California. This proposition would have stopped all welfare benefits for illegal immigrants in California. At the time these benefits added up to over $3 billion per year. In the past 12 years since then this has probably doubled. Prop 187 was passed by 59% of California voters, but was ruled unconstitutional by a LIBERAL judge. How is it unconstitutional to say that people who come here illegally from some other country and aren’t US citizens shouldn’t get free benefits – to the tune of $3 billion per year? Hey, that’s liberal judicial activism for you .

    So in essence, we are being told by liberal judges that we HAVE to give illegal immigrants free welfare – including health care, free education , etc. even in California which has been on the verge of bankruptcy for the past 2 years! So we cant afford it, the people don’t want it, but we are FORCED to do it! Then in the face of that, we have people protesting because we want to limit the flow of illegal immigrants coming here. How many things are wrong with that?!
  15.    #75  
    In addition, its obvious that welfare benefits for illegals forms an alluring carrot to attract millions more to come! And what type of person would be attracted to come to the us to receive free benefits? Is it the type who would work hard and help build the community or is it the person who would be a parasite on the community?

    We are told that these people just want to work. If that is so, then why cant we take away the free welfare benefits? If someone “ just wants to work “ then why does he need welfare benefits? Clearly, illegal immigration advocates are being disingenuous (dishonest) in the way they are promoting the issue and in the reasons they are giving. Clearly, part of their goal is the old Marxist story of socialist re-distribution of wealth.

    We have people like Ted Kennedy saying that illegal immigration is a “right” and that this is a civil rights struggle. Getting past the point of how ridiculous this is (its like saying some stranger has a “right” to my wallet) there`s a good chance that their true motivations are two-fold:

    A. They see that a block of 11-12 million illegal immigrants if they give them enough welfare giveaways, as natural future democratic party voters.

    B. Its part of the old, tired, Marxist idea of redistribution of wealth, meaning they want tons of immigrants to come here illegally so they can take yours and my tax money and give them all kinds of welfare.
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Racism- To those who state that those who are opposed to illegal immigration are racist:

    How can you be racist when you want the law applied equally to all races? An illegal immigrant is an illegal immigrant whether from Canada, mexico, the orient, the middle east or anywhere else. Hardly racist. The law does not state that some races who enter the US illegally are illegal immigrants and others are not. Any suggestion or accusation otherwise is 100% complete and utter idiocy.

    There is nothing racist about supporting legal immigration yet wanting to be ensured that law is followed and there is ordered immigration, much as MEXICO HAS.

    Using the racist card is totally disingenuous and wrong. In fact, promoting the falsehood that illegal immigration promotes racism since US citizens start wondering if members of a nationality are here legally or not, which of course is totally unfair to those who obey the law and are in the us legally. This potentially causes a backlash against LEGAL immigrants.

    So can the race card crap.
    I have (laboriously) read through this thread -- you seem to be the only one reraising and reraising race as an issue -- thou doth protest too much.

    Why have you not instead acknowledged that most here (left and right) largely agree that illegal immigration is a huge problem ??
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  17.    #77  
    Balkanization – means to break up into smaller and often hostile units. This phenomenon has happened in Romania, Albania, Greece and Turkey. A lot of fighting and unrest in these regions over the past 15 years based largely on differing customs, languages, religions, ethnic hatreds, and so on. We have seen balkanization in Canada, where the French speaking people of Quebec have tried to secede. We are seeing a balkanization in France, caused by large scale Arabic immigration in recent years, and the French gov`t foolishly permitting the Arab immigrants to set up isolated enclaves where police aren’t allowed in! This recently erupted in full-scale riots in paris. In Denmark, which has similar problems with Arab immigrants.

    If you look at past generations of immigrants to America (mine from Poland, Ireland and germany) in the early 1900s and the way those generations adapted to life here, it was TOTALLY DIFFERENT from what the current illegal immigrants are doing. The immigrants from Mexico have no respect for our laws, our customs, our way of life, and aren`t learning our language. They are not even trying to assimilate the way yours and my ancestors did.

    Note that recent demonstrators have been waving the Mexican flag, not the American flag. Balkanization is well on its way in America and very well could weaken our country one day.
  18.    #78  
    It is a privilege to move here, not a right, and trying to compare illegal immigration to earlier civil rights struggles is ridiculous. The US has, as every country in the world, a right to limit immigration and control immigration – AS IT USED TO DO WHEN YOURS AND MY ANCESTORS CAME HERE!..

    There are a variety of reasons why the US and EVERY country has this right and should have this right. One being we want to make sure they assimilate to our culture and way of life. They must learn the language, learn our laws, become citizens, pay taxes and so on. We have never required that they leave their own customs behind, but we do require that in general they become part of the group here.

    Illegal immigration advocates say any hostility toward illegals is a symptom of racism. What they are not willing to confront is that Americans have played by the assimilation rules for hundreds of years, and that it is actually natural to feel hostility to someone who comes in, breaks the law, doesn’t play by the rules, doesn’t learn the language, and has no respect for the country or the system - AND collects $5-6 billion in free services per year in californa, paid for by his / her taxes!
  19.    #79  
    Politics - More than 92% of the Mexican population voted for socialists, revolutionists, and greens. What if 12 – 20 million illegal immigrants were given voting rights or illegally obtained them as no one checks citizen status, in the US? You think the US is marching down the road of socialism now? Just you wait.
  20.    #80  
    Healthcare and medical hazards – unscreened, illegal immigrants bring in additional health hazards. Many illegal aliens harbor fatal diseases that American medicine fought and vanquished long ago, such as drug-resistant tuberculosis, malaria, leprosy, plague, polio, dengue and Chagas disease. So rather than accepting healthy immigrants we are forced to accept unhealthy individuals – NO OTHER NATION DOES THAT.. Each illegal with MDR-TB coughs and infects 10 to 30 people, who will not show symptoms immediately. Treatment of TB can be expensive. They increase our medical expenses and threaten our health.

    It was estimated that in 2002, border hospitals spend about $200 million annually to provide emergency health care to illegal aliens and that they account for 30% of our medically uninsured population. For example, in LA county, illegals who rountinely use emergency rooms as free clinics are costing the county and state taxpayers $340 million annually. Another study found that 84 California hospitals are closing their doors as a DIRECT result of the rising number of illegal alians and the non-reimbursed tax on the system.
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