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  1.    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Bo View Post
    Are you onboard with the theory that "they" are working towards a singular North American government ala the NAFTA conspiracy theorists?
    The only thing I am onboard with is the notion of reducing and or stopping the illegal immigration problem. Period.

    Tell me what you mean by "they", my friend.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    You are the one ranting about racism here. I would ask you for a comment of substance on the true spirit of MY post.

    You have no right to interject false racism claims in a thread which does not involve it. You are simply baiting here.
    With all due respect, you asked a question: ["I have to ask you, lifeis2short and cellmatrix, do you think we have a problem with illegal immigration from mexico?" ]

    I answered it, yet your only response was to falsely claim the totality of my reply was playing a race card. If and when you can see the forest for the trees, this discussion and this 'issue' can progress further. Until then ... Not so much.
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    The only thing I am onboard with is the notion of reducing and or stopping the illegal immigration problem. Period.

    Tell me what you mean by "they", my friend.
    The proverbial conspiracy theorist "they" as in big government, shadow corporations, unknown but infinitely powerful entities etc. X-files approved.

    I can't say I agree that immigration is the greatest threat facing the country. I think it is a convenient scapegoat for problems we've created ourselves.



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  4. D-Bo's Avatar
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Is it possible to put up a discourse about coming to a solution about an illegal immigration problem without it devolving into a racism debate?

    They do not go hand in hand. Its a matter of legal vs illegal, not this skin color vs that skin color.

    Earlier we agreed that one alternative might be to fine corporations for employing illegals. Are you saying THAT is racist?
    I agree that in a vacuum the issue is about creating policies and procedures to effectively manage the immigration of others to the US and not the ethnicity of those immigrating into the country. Unfortunately in the current socio-political climate the issue of race has much to do with the issue of immigration. Mexican and other South American immigrants have been painted as the problem, when it is in fact the system that is the problem. I'm not trying to paint you as a racist nor those that support immigration reform as such ( I support reforms). It is unfortunate that many have forgotten that we all immigrated here at some point (save for American Indians).
  5.    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Bo View Post
    The proverbial conspiracy theorist "they" as in big government, shadow corporations, unknown but infinitely powerful entities etc. X-files approved.

    I can't say I agree that immigration is the greatest threat facing the country. I think it is a convenient scapegoat for problems we've created ourselves.
    I never said immigration is the single greatest threat facing the country as it stands today. D-bo, show me where I or anyone else here said that.
    I said its a problem, one we need to address. Apparently, you are not "onboard" with that.

    How is it a scapegoat? What, would you prefer we simply ignore it and let things happen however they may? let them all flood in, right, D-bo.? Nevermind our silly policy or that ridiculous rule of law in our land.

    Maybe we should just stop taking issue with all problems of any nature
    in general just so that no one would say we are racist or the like, right?

    Got ya.
  6.    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Bo View Post
    I agree that in a vacuum the issue is about creating policies and procedures to effectively manage the immigration of others to the US and not the ethnicity of those immigrating into the country. Unfortunately in the current socio-political climate the issue of race has much to do with the issue of immigration. Mexican and other South American immigrants have been painted as the problem, when it is in fact the system that is the problem. I'm not trying to paint you as a racist nor those that support immigration reform as such ( I support reforms). It is unfortunate that many have forgotten that we all immigrated here at some point (save for American Indians).
    No one has forgotten that we all immigrated here at some point. It is unfortunate that many have forgotton that most if not all our families back then came in via the LEGAL route. They did not sneak in over a border knowing it was unlawful. Thats the difference. You cannot compare the two.

    People wrongfully inject the problem of race into the immigration issue. If people come over here legally, there wouldnt be a problem and I wouldnt object to it, understand? I think many use racism as an excuse to attack those of us in America who object to those who jump the border. Plain and simple.


    I agree that our system is at fault, which brings us right back to my point : No present or future administration has the character to do anything about it, so yes, WE are perpetuating the problem.
    Last edited by treobk214; 09/22/2007 at 07:50 PM.
  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    With all due respect, you asked a question: ["I have to ask you, lifeis2short and cellmatrix, do you think we have a problem with illegal immigration from mexico?" ]

    I answered it, yet your only response was to falsely claim the totality of my reply was playing a race card. If and when you can see the forest for the trees, this discussion and this 'issue' can progress further. Until then ... Not so much.


    At the beginning of the thread i stated our government was at fault for doing nothing to address the issue. The security of our ports and borders are nowhere near acceptable, and neither party is willing to pursue the means to make the appropriate changes. That is my stance here and should have been quite clear to you before posting your response.

    The Mexican/South American immigration is the most egregious instance of border penetration, which is why the thread is centralized around it. Of course we want to secure the ports as well as our borders [plural], but I believe we have to start somewhere, would you not agree? Why shouldnt we start at the site of greatest and most frequent offense?
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    At the beginning of the thread i stated our government was at fault for doing nothing to address the issue. The security of our ports and borders are nowhere near acceptable, and neither party is willing to pursue the means to make the appropriate changes. That is my stance here and should have been quite clear to you before posting your response.
    It was. Yet your question to me and cellmatrix was very narrowly focused, hense the response it has received.

    The Mexican/South American immigration is the most egregious instance of border penetration, which is why the thread is centralized around it. Of course we want to secure the ports as well as our borders [plural], but I believe we have to start somewhere, would you not agree? Why shouldnt we start at the site of greatest and most frequent offense?
    First, is everyone aware that Mexico is considered either North America or Central America (depending on the source), not South America?

    Second, the Mexican-US border has historically been a soft border with traffic fairly freely moving in both directions, largely due to desert terrain. I agree that for domestic security purposes, we need a more rigorous gatekeeper to prevent the risk of nightmare scenarios. That is my priority #1.
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    How is it a scapegoat? What, would you prefer we simply ignore it and let things happen however they may? let them all flood in, right, D-bo.? Nevermind our silly policy or that ridiculous rule of law in our land.
    Time to inject some radical liberalism in this thread.

    Maybe the problem is that separating people willing to work from jobs are senseless in the first place, and that borders are outdated, and that its selfish to maintain your standard of living at the expense of others, and indicate a lack of compassion for your fellow man.

    Maybe its nation states which need to get with the times.

    Now each of these points can be argued separately, but I could give an example from Europe where things are working out OK, because socialist politics are already embedded in the culture. In UK, where a social disparity is noticed, the government tried to level it, not exacerbate it. An example is that all housing developments should include low cost housing on the same development, meaning you dont get large ghettos of poor, and large suburbs of rich. Council housing is freely mixed with private housing. The vast majority of the population use the same tax-funded health care system, largely irrespective of class. Taxes are designed to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor etc. Large cars are heavily taxed, whereas small cars do not pay any. The public transport system is encouraged for all, and are used both by the bankers and the cleaners.

    Europe contains pretty disparate populations, and Spaniards and Finns dont have too much in common. However freedom to work and move across borders has been enshrined in EU law for decades now, and no economic or cultural disasters have occurred. EU has recently expanded to add 75 million very poor formerly eastern block countries. UK has absorbed 2.5 million migrant workers from these countries, who come over and do our plumbing and look after our babies. In 20 years time very few of these people will still be here, as their countries would have developed economically, due to aid from the EU and good governance which is part and parcel of joining one of the biggest bureaucracies in the world. Having these poorer countries as part of EU will also help EU compete against low cost economies like South America, China and India, meaning a manufacturing base can be maintained.

    I am sure people will say the cultural differences between Americans and Mexicans are much larger than between Bulgarians and English, but due to pervasive media we are all some kind of American these days (which is the real reason why Bin Laden hates America).

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, assimilation is better than setting up a fortress, as the original poster suggests. Assimilation carries a lot of advantages, whereas a siege mentality sets up an ongoing cost which will eventually not be sustainable and fail in any case. Think of the war on drugs as a good example.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 09/22/2007 at 09:46 PM.
  10.    #50  
    [QUOTE=lifes2short;1349749] It was. Yet your question to me and cellmatrix was very narrowly focused, hense the response it has received. [QUOTE=lifes2short:1349749]



    Narrowly focused? I asked you if you felt we had an immigration problem, to which you said you thought we had a security problem while throwing in a remark regarding racism, which was completely inappropriate. Hence the response YOU received.



    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    First, is everyone aware that Mexico is considered either North America or Central America (depending on the source), not South America?

    Second, the Mexican-US border has historically been a soft border with traffic fairly freely moving in both directions, largely due to desert terrain. I agree that for domestic security purposes, we need a more rigorous gatekeeper to prevent the risk of nightmare scenarios. That is my priority #1.

    The illegal immigration dilemma is comprised of individuals coming over from all countries south of the US. This includes Mexico and all other nations south of it, just so everyone is aware.

    In any case, I am glad you agree that we must secure our borders. Especially since we live in such precarious times, it is imperative that all who enter do so legally.
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Time to inject some radical liberalism in this thread.

    Maybe the problem is that separating people willing to work from jobs are senseless in the first place, and that borders are outdated, and that its selfish to maintain your standard of living at the expense of others, and indicate a lack of compassion for your fellow man.

    Maybe its nation states which need to get with the times.

    Now each of these points can be argued separately, but I could give an example from Europe where things are working out OK, because socialist politics are already embedded in the culture. In UK, where a social disparity is noticed, the government tried to level it, not exacerbate it. An example is that all housing developments should include low cost housing on the same development, meaning you dont get large ghettos of poor, and large suburbs of rich. Council housing is freely mixed with private housing. The vast majority of the population use the same tax-funded health care system, largely irrespective of class. Taxes are designed to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor etc. Large cars are heavily taxed, whereas small cars do not pay any. The public transport system is encouraged for all, and are used both by the bankers and the cleaners.

    Europe contains pretty disparate populations, and Spaniards and Finns dont have too much in common. However freedom to work and move across borders has been enshrined in EU law for decades now, and no economic or cultural disasters have occurred. EU has recently expanded to add 75 million very poor formerly eastern block countries. UK has absorbed 2.5 million migrant workers from these countries, who come over and do our plumbing and look after our babies. In 20 years time very few of these people will still be here, as their countries would have developed economically, due to aid from the EU and good governance which is part and parcel of joining one of the biggest bureaucracies in the world. Having these poorer countries as part of EU will also help EU compete against low cost economies like South America, China and India, meaning a manufacturing base can be maintained.

    I am sure people will say the cultural differences between Americans and Mexicans are much larger than between Bulgarians and English, but due to pervasive media we are all some kind of American these days (which is the real reason why Bin Laden hates America).

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, assimilation is better than setting up a fortress, as the original poster suggests. Assimilation carries a lot of advantages, whereas a siege mentality sets up an ongoing cost which will eventually not be sustainable and fail in any case. Think of the war on drugs as a good example.

    Surur

    Yes, assimilation is perfectly fine, so long as those entering the country do so legally and account for themselves. We are gracious enough to allow them to seek employment and shelter their families within our nation, one would think they should be gracious enough to abide by our laws in return. I would think that is not asking too much.

    Surur, lets be perfectly clear about this. Its not about separating people willing to work from jobs. Its the act of allowing immigrants to work illegally that is senseless.

    As far as selfishly maintaining my standard of living at the expense of others, I dont selfishly maintain my standard of living at the expense of others. Big corporations might, but not me, or my family for that matter.

    Its not a lack of compassion for my fellow man. As long as my fellow man abides by the law the way I am required to do, I have all the compassion in the world for him. Ok?

    Just because an individual is underserved does not give him or her an excuse to operate surrepticiously and illegally within the boundaries of my country. If I am required to follow the law, than everyone else who enjoys the same privileges should be required to do so as well. I wouldn`t think laws are outdated as well.

    Are borders outdated? During ideal, peaceful times, that might be the case. But due to a worldwide threat of terrorism from an ideology whose tenets may also be called "outdated", sometimes such outdated defenses like borders may still be necessary.
  12.    #52  
    Let me say though that yours was a good, informative post, surur.

    I appreciate the advantage of low cost housing for the underserved in a system where taxes redirect the wealth from the rich to the poor.

    I acknowledge that everyone should receive the same high level of healthcare through such a system.

    I just believe that all who might participate in such a society should do so, as I have said, legally. That expecting so much shouldn't be considered selfish, senseless or, suffice it to say, racist.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Time to inject some radical liberalism in this thread.

    Maybe the problem is that separating people willing to work from jobs are senseless in the first place, and that borders are outdated, and that its selfish to maintain your standard of living at the expense of others, and indicate a lack of compassion for your fellow man.

    Maybe its nation states which need to get with the times.
    Surur
    Very thoughtful post .

    BUT

    What about the native citizens that are also as you say .....willing to work? Your scenario would..... and in fact, is leading to a mad dash to the bottom. That bottom is someone with a sign around there neck saying “Will work for food.”

    Why is it always the wealthier countries whose borders are outdated?

    Please explain to me how “maintaining my standard of living is at the expense of others and indicates a lack of compassion for my fellow man.”

    If we’re talking about my fellow man from Mexico, he/she comes from one of the richest countries on this earth. There problem has more to do with corruption and greed by the so called elite of Mexico. Problems the so called elite here in the U.S. are trying very hard to emulate. Do you really think mass migration....people moving or being moved around like pawns on a chess board is the answer? An answer for who? major corporations and multi-nationals? How about getting rid of the dictators and oppressors and doing right by their people? Seems like to me, that would be much more compassionate than worrying about my standard of living.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  14.    #54  
    excellent post, Iago.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    excellent post, Iago.
    Thanks, Appriciate you.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Narrowly focused?
    Yes, narrowly focused.
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214
    "I have to ask you, lifeis2short and cellmatrix, do you think we have a problem with illegal immigration from mexico?"
    ... which stands in contrast from your further explanation below:

    I asked you if you felt we had an immigration problem, to which you said you thought we had a security problem while throwing in a remark regarding racism, which was completely inappropriate. Hence the response YOU received.
    And again, if those crossing our historically fairly open southern border were fair-haired, American english-speaking Anglos, we wouldn't be having this discussion outside of a security framework. As to 'all who enter do so legally', where is the model for this idealic utopia which the US can pattern itself after?
  17. D-Bo's Avatar
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    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    I never said immigration is the single greatest threat facing the country as it stands today. D-bo, show me where I or anyone else here said that.
    Where did I say you said that? Can I make a statement of my belief without it having anything to do with you?

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    I said its a problem, one we need to address. Apparently, you are not "onboard" with that.
    Reread my previous responses, mkay?

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    How is it a scapegoat? What, would you prefer we simply ignore it and let things happen however they may? let them all flood in, right, D-bo.? Nevermind our silly policy or that ridiculous rule of law in our land.
    There are many socio-economic issues we (as a country) are facing today. The debate has shifted to immigration but overlooks the economic environment that has created an incentive to immigrate and a broken bureaucracy that doesn't effectively or efficiently manage the influx of immigrants. Our economy has become dependent on a warped sense of a consumer caste system and that is of no fault of immigrants into this country.

    Look at what I stated before, that I support reforms. Sounds like I wouldn't prefer to ignore it right, treobk214?

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Maybe we should just stop taking issue with all problems of any nature
    in general just so that no one would say we are racist or the like, right?

    Got ya.
    Now you just sound childish. Well that and many of your previous responses. Show me where I said any of that? I said the system is broken and that I support reforms. Not sure how that translates to what you said above....

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    No one has forgotten that we all immigrated here at some point. It is unfortunate that many have forgotton that most if not all our families back then came in via the LEGAL route. They did not sneak in over a border knowing it was unlawful. Thats the difference. You cannot compare the two.
    Now I know you're full of it. You contradicted yourself in your own statement . You must be able to draw a comparison between then and now. It is clear many people in this country (particularly those who are immigration alarmists) forgot where they came from. As an Irish descendant I can tell you many of my ancestors immigrated under false pretenses due to the influx of Irish immigrants after the potato famine. Back then (as is the case now) the alarmists were fueled by racism and fear. Of course the times are different however those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

    The same as it was 100 years ago people look to America as a land of opportunity. It is our obligation to share that opportunity with anyone who wishes to embark upon it (like our ancestors) unfortunately we live in a time where the system of government has failed their charge and we have no idea how to fulfill that obligation.


    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    People wrongfully inject the problem of race into the immigration issue. If people come over here legally, there wouldnt be a problem and I wouldnt object to it, understand? I think many use racism as an excuse to attack those of us in America who object to those who jump the border. Plain and simple.
    Not so simple, the system for lawful immigration is broken. I believe in the rule of law. I also believe that if you have to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family you are not the same criminal as say Jefferey Dahmer. See my statement above on the historical motives of immigration alarmists.


    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    I agree that our system is at fault, which brings us right back to my point : No present or future administration has the character to do anything about it, so yes, WE are perpetuating the problem.
    Well at least we can agree on that.
  18. #58  
    The legality of the immigrants is a red herring, and one that would suddenly go away if the government legalized those already present, and relaxed immigration laws to allow free movement.

    Surur
  19.    #59  
    [QUOTE=lifes2short;1349821]Yes, narrowly focused. ... which stands in contrast from your further explanation below: Originally Posted by treobk214
    "I have to ask you, lifeis2short and cellmatrix, do you think we have a problem with illegal immigration from mexico?"
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post



    And again, if those crossing our historically fairly open southern border were fair-haired, American english-speaking Anglos, we wouldn't be having this discussion outside of a security framework. As to 'all who enter do so legally', where is the model for this idealic utopia which the US can pattern itself after?

    How ridiculous. Now you`re just playing a trivial game of semantics. Your comments are narrowly focused on making this into a matter of racism. Its a matter of legal vs illegal citizenship. Period.



    AGAIN, THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACISM. THIS IS NOT ABOUT FAIR SKIN VS DARKER SKIN. OUR FAIR-HAIRED, ENGLISH-SPEAKING ANCESTORS ENTERED LEGALLY, NOT ILLEGALLY. I would think you would be sophisticated enough to be able to separate this issue from racism. A utopic model is a ridiculous suggestion, as such a possibility can`t and doesnt exist. Obviously that is no reason to abandon the rule of law simply because there is an unwillingness to enforce it. Its obvious you do not feel there is an illegal immigration problem, since you are responding the way you are.
    Last edited by treobk214; 09/23/2007 at 09:41 AM.
  20.    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Bo View Post
    Where did I say you said that? Can I make a statement of my belief without it having anything to do with you?



    Reread my previous responses, mkay?



    There are many socio-economic issues we (as a country) are facing today. The debate has shifted to immigration but overlooks the economic environment that has created an incentive to immigrate and a broken bureaucracy that doesn't effectively or efficiently manage the influx of immigrants. Our economy has become dependent on a warped sense of a consumer caste system and that is of no fault of immigrants into this country.

    Look at what I stated before, that I support reforms. Sounds like I wouldn't prefer to ignore it right, treobk214?



    Now you just sound childish. Well that and many of your previous responses. Show me where I said any of that? I said the system is broken and that I support reforms. Not sure how that translates to what you said above....



    Now I know you're full of it. You contradicted yourself in your own statement . You must be able to draw a comparison between then and now. It is clear many people in this country (particularly those who are immigration alarmists) forgot where they came from. As an Irish descendant I can tell you many of my ancestors immigrated under false pretenses due to the influx of Irish immigrants after the potato famine. Back then (as is the case now) the alarmists were fueled by racism and fear. Of course the times are different however those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

    The same as it was 100 years ago people look to America as a land of opportunity. It is our obligation to share that opportunity with anyone who wishes to embark upon it (like our ancestors) unfortunately we live in a time where the system of government has failed their charge and we have no idea how to fulfill that obligation.




    Not so simple, the system for lawful immigration is broken. I believe in the rule of law. I also believe that if you have to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family you are not the same criminal as say Jefferey Dahmer. See my statement above on the historical motives of immigration alarmists.




    Well at least we can agree on that.

    I did not contradict myself. Reread MY previous responses, MKAY? My ancestors as well as the MAJORITY of others, as I have said, came here legally. The great majority at least went through an application process, which we cannot say for the majority of modern day illegal immigrants. I have read your statements, and I think you are full of it, personally.

    Again, this is not fueled by racism. It is security and citizenship. Period!! Its an effort to have everyone accounted for. 9/11 changed the world we live in, unfortunately that entails keeping tabs on any and all that come and go over our borders. I think its childish to continue insisting this revolves around racism. If you cant keep this separate from racism, that is your problem.

    You go back to claiming we are criminalizing someone who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family and comparing him to Jeffrey Dahmer. Complete and utter nonsense.
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