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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Those damn righties cell!

    Sure the illegals often do the work we don't want to do for less and come here to better themselves.
    But are they contributing to social security by paying taxes like we do for living here? How do think they are mixing into the health care picture?

    I've never called them the scum of the earth who clean the toilets I crap in, cellmatrix. Those were YOUR words. Very classy there, cell.

    I'm not interested in calling these immigrants anything other than "illegal" here if that's in fact what they turn out to be, ok? So enough about their mistreatment or the "bad attitude" about them.


    Its a right wing AND left wing problem by the way. Neither side gives a damn about doing anything about it. So I think focusing on solely the "righties" here for the issue is pretty ridiculous.

    Since we can agree there is a problem, I think we can also agree that enforcing fines on these corporations who employ them would be a step in the right direction. A border patrol would also be a good way to ensure that the situation is under control - as best we can, anyway.

    Incidentally, I also think we should have our troops on our borders as opposed to Iraq which is a hopeless mess, but that is for another thread.
    sorry to use the C word. how embarrassing! I do feel there is too much stereotyping and racisim interjected into the immigration issue and perhaps much of it is inadvertent. I welcome anyone's efforts into trying to point that out when it happens, including you. Anyway, I think we agree on this issue more than we want to admit. And both wings of our political parties are guilty of inaction on going after the employers. I do not think making the rio grande a berlin wall would be worth the message it would portray to the rest of the world, or the cost itself. I do think the actions against the employers would be far more cost effective.
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    According to this PEW research group, which prepared an analysis for a bipartisan congressional subcommittee, it appears that the rate of illegal immigration peaked and actually has been on the decline recently.
    http://pewhispanic.org/files/factsheets/33.pdf
    http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=53

    This same source has a comprehensive analysis of immigrant demographics as well.
    http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/61.pdf
    Thanks! Good resources. So, since 2004, there has been a very gradual decline in overall Mexican-born immigration, and a rapid decline in the percentage of border apprehensions since Q2/2006. Anyone know why this rapid decline would be occurring [factually vs speculation]?

    I have to wonder if we will see a parallel decline of Mexican-born construction workers along with the implosion of the Housing market over the next several years. These are relatively well-paid workers who will have to struggle to have incomes approaching their construction gigs.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    I have to ask you, lifeis2short and cellmatrix, do you think we have a problem with illegal immigration from mexico?
    In brief, I believe we have a problem securing our borders [plural] and ports, regardless of the race of the persons entering. IOW, this is not a Mexican-problem, it's a US problem. To focus solely on Mexican immigration is softcore racism/class warfare-in-drag which requires a paradigm shift in order to take effective measures.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    sorry to use the C word. how embarrassing! I do feel there is too much stereotyping and racisim interjected into the immigration issue and perhaps much of it is inadvertent. I welcome anyone's efforts into trying to point that out when it happens, including you. Anyway, I think we agree on this issue more than we want to admit. And both wings of our political parties are guilty of inaction on going after the employers. I do not think making the rio grande a berlin wall would be worth the message it would portray to the rest of the world, or the cost itself. I do think the actions against the employers would be far more cost effective.
    Actions against the employers is certainly the main method against it. But lets be clear, cell. Racism has nothing to do with this. Stop trying to steer it that way. What you should be concentrating on is the fact that they are illegal. Its not about racism, its about illegals. ok? I like for people to try to avoid attempting to create racism issues where there are none in these types of discussions, that includes you.
  5.    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    In brief, I believe we have a problem securing our borders [plural] and ports, regardless of the race of the persons entering. IOW, this is not a Mexican-problem, it's a US problem. To focus solely on Mexican immigration is softcore racism/class warfare-in-drag which requires a paradigm shift in order to take effective measures.
    Again, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.
    OBVIOUSLY, , our immigration policy holds for ALL illegals whether they are from Europe, Asia, Middle East, or South America. But as you MUST know by now, the South American/Mexican illegal immigration is the most problematic. Thats not being RACIST to point that out, lifes2short. Its simply stating the factual. Get off the racist card. Its You folks seem obsessed with trying to pull that. racist this, racist that.

    I believe we need effective measures in implementing a paradigm shift away from the need to think everything involves racism.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Actions against the employers is certainly the main method against it. But lets be clear, cell. Racism has nothing to do with this. Stop trying to steer it that way. What you should be concentrating on is the fact that they are illegal. Its not about racism, its about illegals. ok? I like for people to try to avoid attempting to create racism issues where there are none in these types of discussions, that includes you.
    I agree. Also, it seems to me the real racists are all of the apoligists and others who like to gloss over illegal actions, for instance like La Raza (translation:The Race) and other advocates who hope for a "reconquista" of the American Southwest. What's that saying Cellmatrix? "We didn't cross the border the border crossed us?" Is that how it goes?
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    I agree. Also, it seems to me the real racists are all of the apoligists and others who like to gloss over illegal actions, for instance like La Raza (translation:The Race) and other advocates who hope for a "reconquista" of the American Southwest. What's that saying Cellmatrix? "We didn't cross the border the border crossed us?" Is that how it goes?
    I think the real delusion is believing racism does not exist at all or at least is not a problem that affects us or that we need to deal with.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/22/2007 at 05:13 PM.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Again, this has NOTHING TO DO WITH RACE.
    OBVIOUSLY, , our immigration policy holds for ALL illegals whether they are from Europe, Asia, Middle East, or South America. But as you MUST know by now, the South American/Mexican illegal immigration is the most problematic. Thats not being RACIST to point that out, lifes2short. Its simply stating the factual. Get off the racist card. Its You folks seem obsessed with trying to pull that. racist this, racist that.

    I believe we need effective measures in implementing a paradigm shift away from the need to think everything involves racism.
    Do you have any comment on the substance and spirit of my post or just want to rant about false-racism? If not, you have no right to wonder why more effort and effective action has not taken place.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Actions against the employers is certainly the main method against it. But lets be clear, cell. Racism has nothing to do with this. Stop trying to steer it that way. What you should be concentrating on is the fact that they are illegal. Its not about racism, its about illegals. ok? I like for people to try to avoid attempting to create racism issues where there are none in these types of discussions, that includes you.
    If you recognize racism is a problem in our society just like illegal immigration, and are against both, then I think we are in total agreement here.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I think the real delusion is believing racism does not exist at all or at least is not a problem that affects us or that we need to deal with.
    Yeah that is delusional. Racism permeates just about everything. From serious issues like immigration to the more mundane issues or slights a person may receive just because of someone’s racist perceptions of you. This is not a color blind society. Lady Liberty is definitely just an ideal at this point. Nevertheless, we keep striving. However, racism and illegal immigration are distinct issues. They don’t always have to go together. I think people put them together because it adds persuasion to their arguments and makes it easier to dismiss you. It doesn’t matter to me what country is on the other side of the border. Illegal immigration is just that....illegal. Why should I believe you’re going to respect our laws if by your very first act you break them? We have to be a nation of laws first, or at the very least a semblance of it. Otherwise what do you have?

    Incidently, racism cuts both ways. You can be a hater or/and a proponant of "your people". Both are damaging.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I think the real delusion is believing racism does not exist at all or at least is not a problem that affects us or that we need to deal with.
    One has to wonder how big the Mexican border issue would be if they were all 6' anglos who spoke American english and looked like Notre Dame alums. Of course, US employers wouldn't be able to have them labor for substandard wages either so the whole economic incentive would dry up too.

    As for the issue of 'illegality', there is much more corporate corruption and fraud in terms of economic impact and pervasiveness in the US. Wanna go for the big kahuna? There ya go! Only difference is that corporate America can afford much better legal representation.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    As for the issue of 'illegality', there is much more corporate corruption and fraud in terms of economic impact and pervasiveness in the US. Wanna go for the big kahuna? There ya go!
    Only difference is that corporate America can afford much better legal representation.
    I'm not sure about either of your claims. Care to share your source for the first statement?
    Also, the second statement doesn't hold water either, since illegal's from Mexico have the entire Mexican government advocating on their behalf. Including the 47 Mexican Consulates operating inside this country.
    Last edited by Iago; 09/22/2007 at 06:21 PM.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  13. #33  
    Iago, lifes2short and treobk, it really does help to understand the reasons behind your views, and I appreciate it. I realize all three of you place a great deal of thought and reflection into your opinions and listening to them makes for a much more valuable interaction than would a mutual shouting match. Thanks.
  14.    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    If you recognize racism is a problem in our society just like illegal immigration, and are against both, then I think we are in total agreement here.
    Why are you sabotaging this thread with arguments about racism?
    I didnt start this thread to argue with you about racism. Stop this now.
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    I think the real delusion is believing racism does not exist at all or at least is not a problem that affects us or that we need to deal with.
    The real delusion is connecting every issue with claims of racism. Deal with the issue at hand rather than touting your "cause" against racism.
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Use the same personnel and technology present at area 51 to keep people out. Apply the same uncompromising security measures.
    Kind of hard to make Mexican nationals believe that the US doesn't exist...


    And it's impossible to segregate this issue from racism, they go hand in hand. If you can't put up with discourse perhaps an open forum is not the best place for you to express your "ideas".
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Do you have any comment on the substance and spirit of my post or just want to rant about false-racism? If not, you have no right to wonder why more effort and effective action has not taken place.
    You are the one ranting about racism here. I would ask you for a comment of substance on the true spirit of MY post.

    You have no right to interject false racism claims in a thread which does not involve it. You are simply baiting here.
  18.    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Bo View Post
    Kind of hard to make Mexican nationals believe that the US doesn't exist...
    yeah, well maybe we wont exist anymore if we we continue going on the same direction
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    #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    yeah, well maybe we wont exist anymore if we we continue going on the same direction
    Are you onboard with the theory that "they" are working towards a singular North American government ala the NAFTA conspiracy theorists?
  20.    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by D-Bo View Post
    Kind of hard to make Mexican nationals believe that the US doesn't exist...


    And it's impossible to segregate this issue from racism, they go hand in hand. If you can't put up with discourse perhaps an open forum is not the best place for you to express your "ideas".


    Is it possible to put up a discourse about coming to a solution about an illegal immigration problem without it devolving into a racism debate?

    They do not go hand in hand. Its a matter of legal vs illegal, not this skin color vs that skin color.

    Earlier we agreed that one alternative might be to fine corporations for employing illegals. Are you saying THAT is racist?
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