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  1. #21  
    I do also notice that none of you have even spoken of the lies told by the Democrats running for president. It is as though their lies are of no consequence or the people are too stupid to realize it.

    Hillary's health care - repackaged to make it look prettier - still the same old stuff that she intends to shove down our throats if she is elected. Socialized medicine does not work anywhere in this world, why would it work here? A little here, a little there, and if you smoke, good luck getting care.

    The list of lies your dear candidates tell us while they smile - just to let you know they are there to help you, to protect you, to lie to you because you are too stupid to realize it.

    Ben
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Sure, even stretched the truth. However, why are you so hung up on him? The subject just plain bores me. You evidently have this Bush thing, well, why not do justice to the entire spectrum - hit up on those I mentioned. Remember, Jessie Jackson thinks Obama is white.

    Ben
    Why do you have to try and turn this into a race thing? Typical ARTLESS spin move. If you want to talk about..... what sombody said ...... Jessie Jackson thinks ....start a thread on that topic.
    Iago

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    And makes me poor indeed."


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  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Why do you have to try and turn this into a race thing? Typical ARTLESS spin move. If you want to talk about..... what sombody said ...... Jessie Jackson thinks ....start a thread on that topic.
    Because that is what they do - change the subject. The subject continues to be "Bush Lied, People Died" and yet the right wingers continue to to deflect to Clinton lies about sex...and now we have this doozy....Jesse Jackson thinks Obama is white.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    I do also notice that none of you have even spoken of the lies told by the Democrats running for president. It is as though their lies are of no consequence or the people are too stupid to realize it.
    Specifics Ben? What lies? I bet I can post two lies from Bush Co. that are on-the-record flip-flop lies for every one you can post from a Dem President candidate? Care to give it a go? Come on now...put your money where your mouth is.

    Hillary's health care - repackaged to make it look prettier - still the same old stuff that she intends to shove down our throats if she is elected. Socialized medicine does not work anywhere in this world, why would it work here? A little here, a little there, and if you smoke, good luck getting care.
    Having lived in the UK for 3 years I know the good and bad of socialized medicine. I'm not sure I like her plan yet either but admit I don't know enough about it since it was just announced - I'd bet you don't either Ben. But something tells me that if we can spend $1 trillion in the desert to kill hundreds of thousands we ought to be able to make sure all kids in this country have basic health care. How that gets implemented will be tricky and I am open to ideas from all sides.

    I do know that 90 million Americans went without healthcare coverage last quarter and while Clinton may not have a perfect plan, she has a plan. What has Bush done to reform health care in 6 years other than pass a sh$t bill for old folks prescription drugs that has been an abysmal failure.

    The list of lies your dear candidates tell us while they smile - just to let you know they are there to help you, to protect you, to lie to you because you are too stupid to realize it.

    Ben
    I love being called stupid...especially from guys like you Ben. Once again please make me look stupid and be specific about the lies. I'd love to know more since you seem to know all....do tell!
    Last edited by moderateinny; 09/21/2007 at 08:49 PM.
  5. #25  
    The stupid thing was not pointed at anyone in particular - the "you" should have been the "American" public.

    As for Hillary's health care plan, I have not read it; however, I have been listening and reading about it. Hillary says nothing about having to work, but you gotta have a job to get insurance. The lies - well, they sure do not remember what they say from time to time and they always change their stance.

    As for making it a racial thing - that was done by Jessie Jackson, and he is definitely not one I would consider a moral person.

    Can we afford Clinton's health care plan? Tell us about England's health care, Canada and other places - why do they want to come here for their care? As for killing hundreds of thousands - not us - that is sectarian fighting.

    Back to the Bush lied - does that mean that Billy lied? He says he did everything possible to get Bin Laden, then why oh why was it not done - people in the CIA and military said we knew where he was and could have easily taken him out.

    Taking this a bit further, how about George Soros and his moveon.org bunch - this guy has so much power that no one in the Democrat party will go against him. When it came time to censure moveon.org, Obama left the room. Hlllary does not dare speak bad about him because she needs his money and Hillary's failure to denounce moveon.org concerning their recent smear campaign against a military hero has cost her and the party greatly in the eyes of many people.

    Nah, why not expand it and ask, why are we only focusing on Bush - why not focus on the bunch of them.

    Ben
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The stupid thing was not pointed at anyone in particular - the "you" should have been the "American" public.
    OK.

    As for Hillary's health care plan, I have not read it;
    No "howevers" needed. If you haven't even read it yourself it means your just regurgitating right-wing talking points about the subject.

    however, I have been listening and reading about it. Hillary says nothing about having to work, but you gotta have a job to get insurance.
    Again...since you you've not read the plan, how do you know this? She says her plan calls for someone to "have a job to get insurance"? Uh?

    The lies - well, they sure do not remember what they say from time to time and they always change their stance.
    Thought so. No specific lies then (not at all surprising) so I shouldn't bother to embarass you with the volumes of Bush lies. And still lost in all of this is the magnitude of the lies and what damage they've done. Clinton's biggest lie upset the "moral majority" yet the moral majority seems to have no problem with Bush lies that have caused people to die unnecessarily.

    As for making it a racial thing - that was done by Jessie Jackson, and he is definitely not one I would consider a moral person.
    Well I'm no Jesse fan but I've not read the quote or context of the quote - if it even exists. For all I know you just read this is your weekly Ann Coulter email rant.

    Can we afford Clinton's health care plan? Tell us about England's health care, Canada and other places - why do they want to come here for their care?
    Yes, I know...when I go to the doctor or ER those darn Brits and Canucks are in my way making me wait even longer than the usual 90 minutes past my office appt and/or 3 hours past my ER wait.

    Ben, I can tell you don't travel much as most Brits and Canadians are probably reading this right now thinking you're such a typical arrogant American a$$.

    Please cite specific statistics that show how "they want to come here for their care"?

    As for killing hundreds of thousands - not us - that is sectarian fighting.
    Sure, sectarian fighting has caused deaths. So too has the OPTIONAL war. So the decision to go to war led to deaths that would not have occured had we not invaded. And that decision and the Bush propaganda machine made that decision, and sold it, based on LIES.

    Back to the Bush lied - does that mean that Billy lied?
    Uh? Yes, he lied about an extra marital affair...we covered that....over and over and over and over and over and over again. WTF is your point?

    He says he did everything possible to get Bin Laden, then why oh why was it not done - people in the CIA and military said we knew where he was and could have easily taken him out.
    Context is something truly lost on you isn't it Ben? Specifics please.

    Sure, Billy could have done more...so could Bush-I. My recollection of the matter is that Clinton has said that he felt strongly he did all that he could to stop Bin Laden with the information he had at the time. If you want to spin that as a "lie" about his explanation as to how he handled something in the past, fine. But we're talking about lies Bush told us moving forward (at the time he told them) not looking back. So what is your point again Ben?

    Taking this a bit further, how about George Soros and his moveon.org bunch - this guy has so much power that no one in the Democrat party will go against him. When it came time to censure moveon.org, Obama left the room. Hlllary does not dare speak bad about him because she needs his money and Hillary's failure to denounce moveon.org concerning their recent smear campaign against a military hero has cost her and the party greatly in the eyes of many people.
    Taking what a bit further? I asked you for specifics and instead you posted another rambling Ted Kazinsky like response with just more topics to avoid having to substantiate your rhetoric.

    As to moveon.org, the ad was not particularily tasteful. But I think the Dems that allowed the GOP to change the subject and voted against FREE SPEECH were cowards. And where was that vote when it was the GOP attacking Max Cleland and/or John Kerry or John McCain for that matter? Where is your moral outrage over that Ben?

    And yet, here again is that word "context". The GOP attacks were literally on vets that lost limbs, received wounds, were held POW, etc. in wars in the past. Petreaus was used as a political pawn by Bush Co. to report his findings but if you really think his findings were not politically influenced then I have some swamp land to sell you in Florida.

    Nah, why not expand it and ask, why are we only focusing on Bush - why not focus on the bunch of them.
    Uh? OK Ted....I mean Ben.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Can we afford Clinton's health care plan? Tell us about England's health care, Canada and other places - why do they want to come here for their care?
    The converse is also true. I know people personally who maintain their dual USA/Canada citizenship so that they have access to Canadian health care system, including long term care in top quality nursing homes.

    Health care can never have a purely market solution, especially for the aging population. No private insurance is going to have a bunch of sick old people with diabetes, heart disease, dementia on their rolls. Such people cannot bring profits to the insurance company. And no amount of tax cuts/incentives can subsidize their premiums if any insurance company is willing to keep them.
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  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    The converse is also true. I know people personally who maintain their dual USA/Canada citizenship so that they have access to Canadian health care system, including long term care in top quality nursing homes.

    Health care can never have a purely market solution, especially for the aging population. No private insurance is going to have a bunch of sick old people with diabetes, heart disease, dementia on their rolls. Such people cannot bring profits to the insurance company. And no amount of tax cuts/incentives can subsidize their premiums if any insurance company is willing to keep them.
    Speaking of Canada....this just in, now we can exchange our currency 1 for 1 for the first time in 30 years. Lucky thing Bush got a "C-" in Econ101 (even though he lied and said he got a "B") or we may be a third-world country by the time he leaves office!
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    #29  
    Here is a good question. Is health care a right or a privilege? If you have spent 50 years treating your body like a garbage dump, do you really expect to be 100% covered by the taxpayers if you get cancer? Do we place certain restrictions on people so they only get covered for certain treatment? I believe socialized medicine will work, but there has to be a higher concentration of efforts on preventative medicine. What do you say to that person on welfare who smokes because its her right to do so, even if she is pregnant?

    Personal responsibility is hard to accept. But don't you think it is reasonable to expect people to be responsible for their own lives? One of the turnoffs of political debate today is that we are only assigning blame to one party or the other. That's not debate, that's just arguing.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorray View Post
    Here is a good question. Is health care a right or a privilege? If you have spent 50 years treating your body like a garbage dump, do you really expect to be 100% covered by the taxpayers if you get cancer? Do we place certain restrictions on people so they only get covered for certain treatment? I believe socialized medicine will work, but there has to be a higher concentration of efforts on preventative medicine. What do you say to that person on welfare who smokes because its her right to do so, even if she is pregnant?

    Personal responsibility is hard to accept. But don't you think it is reasonable to expect people to be responsible for their own lives? One of the turnoffs of political debate today is that we are only assigning blame to one party or the other. That's not debate, that's just arguing.
    Your point is well taken but sadly the simplest of solutions would be fought the hardest by those that advocate "personal responsibility" the most. Specifically, I think the matter could easily be remedied by a simple consumption tax on things like cigarettes. Seems logical to me - they tax the health care system more than anybody so if they insist on continuing to smoke then they'll have to pay. But you can bet your a$$ that the GOP will fight tooth and nail on behalf of the tobacco industry if such a thing were to be proposed.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Your point is well taken but sadly the simplest of solutions would be fought the hardest by those that advocate "personal responsibility" the most. Specifically, I think the matter could easily be remedied by a simple consumption tax on things like cigarettes. Seems logical to me - they tax the health care system more than anybody so if they insist on continuing to smoke then they'll have to pay. But you can bet your a$$ that the GOP will fight tooth and nail on behalf of the tobacco industry if such a thing were to be proposed.

    one of the reasons junior will veto the expansion of the childrens health care program is that it would be financed by increasing taxes on cigarettes...
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    But you can bet your a$$ that the GOP will fight tooth and nail on behalf of the tobacco industry if such a thing were to be proposed.
    Not to mention the Insurance lobby which actually controls and manipulates this type of legislation throughout the congress.

    Just as with our election processes, until these areas are public financed, the for-profit manipulations will continue.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    ... A little here, a little there, and if you smoke, good luck getting care.
    I just caught this little comment. Ben, are you a smoker?
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    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Your point is well taken but sadly the simplest of solutions would be fought the hardest by those that advocate "personal responsibility" the most. Specifically, I think the matter could easily be remedied by a simple consumption tax on things like cigarettes. Seems logical to me - they tax the health care system more than anybody so if they insist on continuing to smoke then they'll have to pay. But you can bet your a$$ that the GOP will fight tooth and nail on behalf of the tobacco industry if such a thing were to be proposed.
    I have a tough time buying this approach. Wouldn't this, in its simple form, still have health care tied to business/profit margins/etc...? So as the population increases, the number of tobacco users will have to increase to cover the tax. Or...the taxes will be increased so much to the point that consumers will quit smoking, which dries up the tax revenue.

    What about those who eat fried foods?

    Am I oversimplifying?
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorray View Post
    I have a tough time buying this approach. Wouldn't this, in its simple form, still have health care tied to business/profit margins/etc...? So as the population increases, the number of tobacco users will have to increase to cover the tax. Or...the taxes will be increased so much to the point that consumers will quit smoking, which dries up the tax revenue.

    What about those who eat fried foods?

    Am I oversimplifying?
    I don't agree with your premise but understand where you are coming from. The problem is that you aren't taking into consideration the significant cost that smokers inject into the health care system versus non-smokers. So I don't think the idea to tax them as part of an overall health care plan necessarily equates to the reliance on smokers as a revenue stream so much as simply a means to pay for the increased amount of care they will need.
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I don't agree with your premise but understand where you are coming from. The problem is that you aren't taking into consideration the significant cost that smokers inject into the health care system versus non-smokers. So I don't think the idea to tax them as part of an overall health care plan necessarily equates to the reliance on smokers as a revenue stream so much as simply a means to pay for the increased amount of care they will need.
    Okay, so based on how burdensome a particular product/activity is determines the level of taxation. So smokers pay a higher tax than Extra Value Meal eaters. Oversimplification, yes, but it could work as long as we (society) determine what the burdens are, not politicians.

    With all of that said, I always cringe when I try to support government programs. My heart always says its the right thing, but my gut reminds me that the government isn't the most efficient or effective managers of anything.

    I can tell you this. With Wal-mart entering the health care arena, you can be sure that health care is going to change. For better for some, for worse for others, but it is going to change. Think of how the ophthalmologist / optometrist market changed when department stores started to add their services. Now you get your eyes checked, buy a new plasma and buy some killer muffins at Costco!
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorray View Post
    Okay, so based on how burdensome a particular product/activity is determines the level of taxation. So smokers pay a higher tax than Extra Value Meal eaters. Oversimplification, yes, but it could work as long as we (society) determine what the burdens are, not politicians.
    I agree that the challenge will be targeting quantifiable foods/behaviours to tax and the taxes should equate to a proportional and quantifiable benefit to the system as a whole.

    With all of that said, I always cringe when I try to support government programs. My heart always says its the right thing, but my gut reminds me that the government isn't the most efficient or effective managers of anything.
    Well I don't know if I want socialized medicine just yet either. But I don't subscribe to the rhetoric that it doesn't work because I lived in the UK and it seemed fine to me. The question we all need to ask ourselves is whether or not capitalism and free enterprise needs to be taken to such an extreme with something as basic as health care? Most countries have decided that it is better to provide adequate care for ALL of its citizens rather than extraordinary care to 67% of their citizens.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 09/24/2007 at 10:31 PM.
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    #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I agree that the challenge will be targeting quantifiable foods/behaviours to tax and the taxes should equate to a proportional and quantifiable benefit to the system as a whole.



    Well I don't know if I want socialized medicine just yet either. But I don't subscribe to the rhetoric that it doesn't work because I lived in the UK and it seemed fine to me. The question we all need to ask ourselves is whether or not capitalism and free enterprise needs to be taken to such an extreme with something as basic as health care? Most countries have decided that it is better to provide adequate care for ALL of its citizens rather than extrordinary care to 67% of their citizens.
    I'm with ya. Basic health care needs to be fundamental in our lives. It couldn't be worse than HMOs. That said, there will still be a market for the extras. For example, do you want a private room in the hospital...that costs extra. Do you want on-demand access to your doctor (concierge medicine), that will cost extra. Here is a snag: Do those on gov't health care get to choose their providers, or are they assigned so that all practices get their fair share of gov't money?

    This thread is slowing down. We are agreeing too much. Let's change that.

    Moderateinny...you, sir, are a hippie, red-stater, conservative, liberal, progressive, communist, doody-head.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorray View Post
    I'm with ya. Basic health care needs to be fundamental in our lives. It couldn't be worse than HMOs. That said, there will still be a market for the extras. For example, do you want a private room in the hospital...that costs extra. Do you want on-demand access to your doctor (concierge medicine), that will cost extra. Here is a snag: Do those on gov't health care get to choose their providers, or are they assigned so that all practices get their fair share of gov't money?

    This thread is slowing down. We are agreeing too much. Let's change that.

    Moderateinny...you, sir, are a hippie, red-stater, conservative, liberal, progressive, communist, doody-head.
    LOL. I try to be moderate but admit the last 6 years has pushed me further left than I ever have been in my life.

    So...sorry to disappoint you but, yes, in general I think that if you can afford to "upgrade" your healthcare you should be entitled to do so. There can be no perfect system when you're talking about 300MM people.
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    #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    LOL. I try to be moderate but admit the last 6 years has pushed me further left than I ever have been in my life.

    So...sorry to disappoint you but, yes, in general I think that if you can afford to "upgrade" your healthcare you should be entitled to do so. There can be no perfect system when you're talking about 300MM people.
    Dang, you aren't going to bite, huh? I thought that was a good insult I hurled at you.

    I remember being in school, firmly planted on the left and debating constantly with a very far right poly-sci professor. And then I started to make some money and with that I started to work my way to the middle. I feel that I am moderate in most of my opinions. I am proud to be a fence-sitter and am just getting tired of the us vs. them mentality. I sometimes envy those that have such a passionate feeling (Liberal or Conservative) but then I realize that with that passion, comes the burden of not being able to learn what the other side is saying.

    As I have always said, the majority of us are in the middle, but that doesn't produce enough sound bites to make the news entertaining. Just look at this thread. It turned into the two of us having a conversation. Since there isn't any flaming or insults, its not stirring up much interest.
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