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  1. #161  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    has the dredging of navigation channels for barges and oil exploitation had no effect on the delta ??
    You're reading that statement backwards. When I say the land loss has everything to do with storms and their effects, it doesn't mean that the land loss was caused by the storms. In the context of the discussion, the thrust of my question was the impact of the land loss on the effects of the storm. In many cases, the canals have contributed to the land loss, which dramatically impacts the effects of storm surges.
    What about the destruction of wetlands that had historically provided a bumper to hurricanes ?? Has that made the coast vulnerable to storm damage ??
    Most assuredly. That was the point of my question.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2. #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    So, you're saying that you cannot read for context.

    This question doesn't make any sense to me.

    You're getting it exactly backwards it seems.

    But your contrast means little in the vacuum of a single sentence.

    And yet so much more than an answer.

    OK.

    You're obviously too smart for me.

    So did you switch your context with the word 'party'?

    The only hindsight I'm having at the moment is that you're a very difficult person to have a conversation with.
    Sorry, but I'm going to gracefully bow out of this exchange with you. I had the intent to treat the subject and its participants with due respect and this circular exchange will only result in something less than desirable. You're finding argument where little or none exists as there was virtually no disagreement of substance between us.
  3. #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Sorry, but I'm going to gracefully bow out of this exchange with you.
    Exchange would imply that you were offering something of substance in return.
    I had the intent to treat the subject and its participants with due respect and this circular exchange will only result in something less than desirable.
    I agree. If you were going to offer some perspective in return rather than just trying to play the literalist angle, we might make more progress.
    You're finding argument where little or none exists as there was virtually no disagreement of substance between us.
    Keep in mind that you were the one who initially stated the strong disagreement.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  4. #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Exchange would imply that you were offering something of substance in return.

    I agree. If you were going to offer some perspective in return rather than just trying to play the literalist angle, we might make more progress.

    Keep in mind that you were the one who initially stated the strong disagreement.
    This type of personal attack is completely unnecessary and unwarranted. Please move on.
  5. #165  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    This is a non-decision. You do your duty and pull the trigger. It's too bad that 12 year boy is carrying munitions. If you can look your friend's loved one in the eye and tell them you could have saved them but chose not to, well, I suppose the read answer if for you to eat a bullet and take yourself out fo the (unfair) game of life.


    Note - this is not the same as spray firing civilians or raping and pilaging.
    I'd expect this answer from someone that didn't serve in combat. Frankly had you been the one to make the decision you wouldn't be so cavalier with your response.

    The right answer is that you quietly cry to yourself hours later after you've done the unthinkable. The right answer is that you become even more pi$$ed off at the politicians that put you in that unwinable position and the *******'s that put that kid up to that and used him as a combatant. The right answer is that you grow older and wiser and realize that it wasn't your fault, but you deeply resent chickenhawks that trivialize the magnitude of such an act as though it were a video game. The right answer is that situations like this make you question the veracity of the reasons an AWOL President so flippantly sends young men to face the same question you had to...

    The right answer is that the "fog of war" makes men do things they never want to discuss again and that fog should never be entered without the presence of a clear and present danger.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 09/26/2007 at 03:41 AM.
  6. #166  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    This type of personal attack is completely unnecessary and unwarranted. Please move on.
    It is no more a personal attack than the post it was in reply to. I'd wager even less so.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    *sigh* No. Try reading for comprehension.

    Ray wasn't crying much on the radio. He cussed up a storm once, though. Maybe you're confusing him with Aaron Broussard crying on MSNBC.

    You see, the problem with criticizing Mee-maw for incompetence is that you must then acknowledge cold indifference on the part of federal authorities.

    Where you there? What do you know of it other than what you saw on the evening news?

    Because it didn't happen, or because it wasn't considered a story?

    It's made of people, like everywhere else.
    Defend your hometown/area all you like.

    - Ray had a meltdown. Not the sign of a leader.

    - Blame the feds is not an excuse for lack of state leadership

    - I have friends who were there and saw it first hand. More scary, a young woman was abandoned when a group of "opportunists" decided to visit her home; the nearby police (who saw this) left her hanging, even after pleaing for help. It was very sad. Forturnately, she escpae unharmed, but was shaken to the core.

    - Um, did you even read the coverage in local papers? I did. NO behaved turdly compared other (worse hit) areas.

    - Sadly, people are _not_ the same everywhere.
  8. #168  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    This type of personal attack is completely unnecessary and unwarranted. Please move on.
    How was that a personal attack? The skin is a bit thin around here...
  9. #169  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Defend your hometown/area all you like.
    Thanks for the permission.
    - Ray had a meltdown. Not the sign of a leader.
    Are you saying that leaders are not entitled to be human? Ray's 'meltdown' was due to the fact that the people in his city were suffering and instead of helping, the governor and the president were playing political games. Now, if you want to discuss some of the stupid things he said after the crisis was over, that's an entirely different matter.
    - Blame the feds is not an excuse for lack of state leadership
    I don't believe I exonerated the state leadership. I only said that they were not _solely_ to blame for the debacle surrounding Katrina.
    - I have friends who were there and saw it first hand.
    The problem arises when one tries to extrapolate from second hand accounts.
    More scary, a young woman was abandoned when a group of "opportunists" decided to visit her home; the nearby police (who saw this) left her hanging, even after pleaing for help. It was very sad. Forturnately, she escpae unharmed, but was shaken to the core.
    Did your friends help?
    - Um, did you even read the coverage in local papers? I did. NO behaved turdly compared other (worse hit) areas.
    I read the coverage in the local papers. I listened to the radio. I watched the TV reports when power returned. One thing I think people forget in the immediate media age is that stories and rumors get circulated in the heat of the moment that are sometimes later revealed to be exaggerated at best, and outright false at worst. No one seems to ever remember (or even see) the corrections or retractions. An example is Paul Accardo.
    - Sadly, people are _not_ the same everywhere.
    We all have our good and bad points.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well here is where the "fog of war" has applicability. Nobody should tolerate and advocate more My Lai villages or war crimes of any sort. You're taught as a soldier to adhere to the Geneva convention and given examples of what are lawful orders vs. unlawful orders. But when you're in combat you're also in an ecosphere unlike any other. You're trying to survive, help your buddies survive, and compete your mission. Within the realms of this reality you have to make decisions and they are not always black and white. Let me give you an example:

    A sniper is sent to the top of a hill to disrupt enemy supply channels into a valley below. Your fellow combatants are down in that valley as well so you know that if you fail to disrupt the supply lines that more of your buddies will die since the enemy will have a fresh supply of ammunitions. Suddenly a bicycle pops up on the horizon on the hill across from you and it is loaded with supplies for the enemy below. Your heart races as you realizes you have only a minute or two to take out this bicyclist or more of your friends may die. You set your sights on the bicycle and just as the target comes into focus in your scope you realize something awful - the bicycle rider is a 12 year old boy! What do you do? Do you take him out knowing your friends will die if you don't? Do you kill a young man you has made an awful decision to help the enemy, but is a boy nonetheless? I won't tell you how the story ends. I'll only tell you that I understand what "the fog of war" is.

    The bottom line is that the soldier in the field cannot always be blamed for the situation and mission that has been thrust upon them. I suppose in an all volunteer army you could ask why anyone would volunteer to put themselves in that position - albeit if they were drafted they may not have had that choice - but supposedly those days are gone. Now if a soldier murders civilians, rapes them, tortures them, etc. then they should be held accountable IMO. But I have trouble blaming our troops for participating in this war that was started by their Commander and Chief.
    What is tragic also is that this child may not have been informed what he/she was carrying or what purpose it serves, rendering them an innocent victim of both warring sides.

    Enter Iraq's circumstances, enlarge the 'sniper' scenario exponentially, factor in 1000 separate tribes of cultures, its history as British-controlled territory, tension between Kurds and Turks, gorilla war between tribes, small manipulative presence of Al Queda because the invading nation could not secure Iraq's borders, lack of public electricity and drinkable water 4.5 years after the invasion, episodes of rape and murder and torture by US military and contractors ...

    And yet, Bush-'conservatives' cannot distinguish this shade of grey as a colossal failure which must be corrected, has a price which must be paid in full, and, to paraphrase Colin Powell, take full ownership of the actions and decisions which lead to this failure? One cannot turn a corner or change direction unless they first come to terms with the truth that past decisions have not been 'mistakes', but failures of the public's trust. In order to plan forward in progressive fashion, one must recognize where you are and how you got there. In politics, this encompasses all of us.

    The US is on a collision course with history in the Middle East unless a dramatic shift in policy occurs which brokers relative peace (relative to their multi-century history together), restores public confidence (Iraq's public), and holds Iraq's government directly accountable for their security, welfare, and stability. Maliki is not the visionary for the job. He's another corrupted bureaucrat who wants nothing more than to continue cutting his own deals at the expense of American blood. http://www.reuters.com/article/gc04/...23456120070926

    Heck of a job, Maliki. Heck of a job.
  11. #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I'd expect this answer from someone that didn't serve in combat. Frankly had you been the one to make the decision you wouldn't be so cavalier with your response.

    The right answer is that you quietly cry to yourself hours later after you've done the unthinkable. The right answer is that you become even more pi$$ed off at the politicians that put you in that unwinable position and the *******'s that put that kid up to that and used him as a combatant. The right answer is that you grow older and wiser and realize that it wasn't your fault, but you deeply resent chickenhawks that trivialize the magnitude of such an act as though it were a video game. The right answer is that situations like this make you question the veracity of the reasons an AWOL President so flippantly sends young men to face the same question you had to...

    The right answer is that the "fog of war" makes men do things they never want to discuss again and that fog should never be entered without the presence of a clear and present danger.
    Frankly, I'm surprised you think someone who had been in combat would do differently.

    Never said it was easy or forgettable. I have nightmares, and likely always will form certain things.

    While your diatribe plays well for the moveon.org crowd, it's the same frequency as bitter whining. There's a rason soldiers exist, and a reason that aren't also the executive, legislative or judicial branch of gov't. We all know how that plays out.

    If you aren't up for the task (or expect it to conform to your politics), you shouldn't have signed up.
  12. #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Frankly, I'm surprised you think someone who had been in combat would do differently.

    Never said it was easy or forgettable. I have nightmares, and likely always will form certain things.

    While your diatribe plays well for the moveon.org crowd, it's the same frequency as bitter whining. There's a rason soldiers exist, and a reason that aren't also the executive, legislative or judicial branch of gov't. We all know how that plays out.

    If you aren't up for the task (or expect it to conform to your politics), you shouldn't have signed up.
    Go get em' Rambo! Kill em' all - let god sort em' out!

    Yes, all of us ex-military guys that oppose Bush-whacko's war are just a bunch of sniveling liberals. You know, like all of those pu$$y's such as Retired Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, Retired Maj. Gen. John Batiste, Retired Gen. Anthony Zinni, General Wesley Clark, etc. etc. etc. etc.
  13. #173  
    Here you go tough guy http://www.amazon.com/War-Always-Wan...bosnation0e-20

    I doubt you'll buy it and read it as it may present a viewpoint you're unwilling to accept.
  14. #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Go get em' Rambo! Kill em' all - let god sort em' out!

    Yes, all of us ex-military guys that oppose Bush-whacko's war are just a bunch of sniveling liberals. You know, like all of those pu$$y's such as Retired Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton, Retired Maj. Gen. John Batiste, Retired Gen. Anthony Zinni, General Wesley Clark, etc. etc. etc. etc.
    Um, why the Rambo rant? You can do your duty without being a psychopath.

    I guess it's easier that way for you to rationalize your opinions.

    If you want to call those generals names and disrespect them, that is your choice. They are entitled to an opinion, like everyone else. However, they all would not have an issue in your "shoot the kid on the bike with ammo" scenario.
  15. #175  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Um, why the Rambo rant? You can do your duty without being a psychopath.

    I guess it's easier that way for you to rationalize your opinions.

    If you want to call those generals names and disrespect them, that is your choice. They are entitled to an opinion, like everyone else. However, they all would not have an issue in your "shoot the kid on the bike with ammo" scenario.

    Boy you are a good Republican - spin distort twist lie. You just keep spewing more unfounded crap and assumptions based on your non-experiences. I'm going to check out of this little never never land of yours so you can go insult some more vets for daring to be opposed to this war. Maybe you can start with the list above. Later Tacklebury.
  16. #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Here you go tough guy http://www.amazon.com/War-Always-Wan...bosnation0e-20

    I doubt you'll buy it and read it as it may present a viewpoint you're unwilling to accept.
    Um, I've actually read that book. It's a good read.

    He really wasn't ready to be a soldier (not everyone is - that is just a fact) - as the saying goes, "one likes to carry the briefcase but not so the work". He was a little to eager to see the action, and when it came, it wasn't what he expected. Wow...something unexpected in war. Whowuddathunkit?

    The fact he forms a PAC, however, I think speaks volumes about his agenda. There's a lot of good money to be made in those things, and they are corrupt as the day is long, whatever the "intentions."
  17. #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Boy you are a good Republican - spin distort twist lie. You just keep spewing more unfounded crap and assumptions based on your non-experiences. I'm going to check out of this little never never land of yours so you can go insult some more vets for daring to be opposed to this war. Maybe you can start with the list above. Later Tacklebury.
    Um, Not a Republican...sorry to disappoint you and your tendency to label people.

    I have my experiences. You take discussion as an "offensive" thing. I think your thin skin is the problem.

    Vets can oppose the war; that's fine - it's America, remember. Some of us are still tolerant of other viewpoints. You should try it sometime.
  18. #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Vets can oppose the war; that's fine - it's America, remember. Some of us are still tolerant of other viewpoints.
    You call this tolerant?

    While your diatribe plays well for the moveon.org crowd, it's the same frequency as bitter whining.
    If you aren't up for the task (or expect it to conform to your politics), you shouldn't have signed up.
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Go get em' Rambo!
    The ironic thing about this is that the character of Rambo was not a 'Gung Ho' 'kill 'em all' type.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    You call this tolerant?
    I call that opinion. I think you confuse it with tolerance.
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