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  1. #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    That's fine. How many storms have you been through?
    As many as passed over land in FL during my first 25+ years of adult life, ending with a small Cat-1 storm which kissed the FL west coast back in '97, including every tropical depression and tropical storm which flooded the state. In other words, I lost count a long, long time ago. I'm no expert on canals, but is there any major difference, where storm surge management is concerned, in those built in New Orleans and those built on the FL west coast?

    I think Gulfport and Biloxi might disagree.
    Disagree though they may, they are not in the same league as New Orleans on economic scales.

    I think you misunderstand my point. I didn't say it wasn't warranted.
    No, but you certainly inferred that their motivation was purely opportunism. ["The only reason that Katrina got the national coverage it did was that the media saw it as a ratings opportunity"]

    I couldn't care less about his detractors per se. I am a mite sensitive about political opportunism at my state's expense, though.
    Fair enough, but I would say that by the very definition of opportunism, one party's plate was just a bit more full than the other where the price of dignity was concerned.

    We agree, but probably for different reasons. Strange how I'm being viewed as a Bush supporter when my comments were in response to someone saying that Blanco and Nagin were responsible, and I disagreed.
    I said nothing of you supporting Bush, but did point out the overuse of a phrase which is used by his supporters/defenders.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Think any other war has been less savage? And you have the nerve to ask about having served?
    War is savage by defintion. But there has been a "civilification" of the whole affair in the West, as opposed to our buddies in the Middle East who aren't up on those "rules".

    Yes, I have the "nerve". You have the "nerve" to answer?
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    As I've said in previous post, I like Biden's plan.
    That plan is completely retarded. Dreamt up by someone who likes to propose utopian plans that get very ugly when it comes to implementation.

    "Trust us, we're from the government" plays as well in Iraq as it does in US.

    Biden is such a joke it's embarassing.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I think you're oversimplifying things quite a bit. OTOH, so is the other side. There were many issues within the umbrella called Katrina. Mee-maw and Willy Wonka were mostly to blame for not getting people out of there _before_ the storm (although the people who didn't evacuate must assume some personal responsibility as well). The Bushie, Brownie, and the feds should have had better response _after_ the storm (Fix Everything My A$$). The biggest share of the debacle should rest with Congress and the Corps for not being smarter for quite a long time. They've ignored the coast for too long, and most of their activities have just made things worse. Ironically, they have focused on New Orleans for so long (trying to control the Mississippi and keep it flowing through NOLA) that they wound up hurting us all.
    Not oversimplifying, just cutting throught the bullshyte.

    They had the info, but decided to posture (or cry like a baby) instead of be a real leader.

    They lucked out, because Brown was a political lieghtweight who didn't realize shytestorms flow uphill to the biggest media target.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    The question is - did you? Did you serve at all?
    No, the question was posed, and by your non-response, it appears you have not either.

    To answer your question, yes.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    He's somewhat like the Saints. He's a screwup, but he's 'our' screwup.

    Meh. If Katrina had happened to Florida, I think you'd have seen a much different response. Hell, Katrina happened to Mississippi much worse than it happened to NOLA, and it didn't get quite the same coverage. The only reason that Katrina got the national coverage it did was that the media saw it as a ratings opportunity and the Bush detractors saw it as an opportunity to bash Bush. That being said, FEMA being absorbed into DHS, while certainly proving the John Birch types wrong on the scope of its power, was definitely not conducive to it being a functional entity.
    That because while Florida has some boobs (no pun intended), they are nowhere as clueless and corrupt as LA.
    Last edited by mikec; 09/21/2007 at 05:04 PM.
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I had earlier asked why you wanted us to have seen The Fog of War -- what was the specific point you wanted us to understand from seeing the film.

    FWIW, I have seen the Fog of War.

    (this is no big deal, but) I saw it at a private screening with both Bob McNamara and Errol Morris in attendance. There was a lengthy and in depth dialogue that followed the screening, and I was fortunate in being able to talk with both Errol Morris and Mr. McNamara.

    the following are some of the raw notes which my Treo still has, of that session :



    Fire bimbing japan - 83k killed -- leaders didn't know of the numbers killed 900k atomic age could v e been a oide

    would lbj have ende war if he wasreelected -- did LBJ know he was wrong
    why not critze war during the nixon yrs
    would japan have unconditioally surrender w o a bomb
    thought we should chg our policies - mac has gone soft on us the war - the majority of us supported the war
    our liv standard is less than our per capita is apropriate
    more on world bank
    could not speak out against bixon because his voice would have too powerful endangering us soldoeed giving aid comnfort to nvietnam
    accepting enperor would hacve enable jap surrend wo a omb
    doesbot kbow if lbj would bot have cont war in 2nd term
    no contact w nvietnam during war + tonkin gulf events big regret -- in 68 chance presented for direct contact w ho chi mihn

    morris -- least ironi movie ??
    9ac would have prefered different lessons -- a perferce self hel¶book -- getting data but what if the data is wrong
    those unfamiliar w history are destined to repeat it w o irony
    mac unigh going tóhanoi moscow to revisit history + past
    wife was intermediary for mac to communiate abot feelings
    difference between we were wrong + I'm sorry
    why do people think the movie book are mea culpa
    I w8t to see him wrestle w his past than an apology
    why he won't speak out aganst iraq -- he's still second of def

    best + brightest supported war plan
    they belirved 2nd attak in tnkin gulf tho not sure
    morris were we deliberately provokative ?

    at tme of tnkin gulf why no contact w n vietnam

    morris-- mac really believed in 2nd tonkin attack
    no arms race w o a bomb drop



    I could translate all that, or quote from what I ultimately wrote based on those notes, but you get the idea.

    So what points are you making ?? What lesson have YOU drawn from McNamara's life as Errol Morris portrayed it ??
    The lesson is that you must continually learn from mistakes. And sometimes the person you villify actually have some important idea to share.
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    That plan is completely retarded. Dreamt up by someone who likes to propose utopian plans that get very ugly when it comes to implementation.

    "Trust us, we're from the government" plays as well in Iraq as it does in US.

    Biden is such a joke it's embarassing.
    I see. Do you have anything at all constructive to offer? Or are you on board with Bush's plan-of-the-month approach?
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    No, the question was posed, and by your non-response, it appears you have not either.

    To answer your question, yes.
    Well you're wrong, I did serve as I've indicated in other threads. And I don't believe one word you are saying based on your posts.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I see. Do you have anything at all constructive to offer? Or are you on board with Bush's plan-of-the-month approach?
    My plan, unfortuantely, expired a couple year ago.

    At this point, I think the the 3 major group there need a come to Mohammad meeting and ask themselves if they want one Iraq or three.

    Based on that decision, then we take our actions.
  11. #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    War is savage by defintion. But there has been a "civilification" of the whole affair in the West, as opposed to our buddies in the Middle East who aren't up on those "rules".

    Yes, I have the "nerve". You have the "nerve" to answer?
    Here's the scoop, Dupe. I could not serve due to an odd blood disorder [G6PD deficiency] which was discovered in my brother who was serving in AK in the USAF which also effects me but to a much greater extent. Half of my family has served careers of 20+ years in either USMC or USAF, including a nephew who served in Gulf1. I tried serving by going through enlistment in both USMC and USA until my local congressman, Charlie Bennett, heard about this and wrote a letter to my recruiter which killed my efforts.

    My brother has served at the pleasure of the president in the capacity of Russian interpreter during US-Soviet presidential-level meetings over the past 15 years of his career. My father, USMC, served 2 tours of Vietnam in the early years before Johnson delivered the goods to corporate elites which destroyed half a million US families. Despite all the humorous jabs at each other within my family about the different branches and service levels, and differences in party affiliations, the one thing we are united about is this fallacious war on terror through the misuse and abuse of this nation's finest, most precious assets. From your blithe, trolling remarks, there are clearly some values you will never understand.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well you're wrong, I did serve as I've indicated in other threads. And I don't believe one word you are saying based on your posts.
    Well I don't read every thread. You didn't answer a simple question (very odd for a someone who "has served") . I had to infer accordingly.

    I could care less what you believe. I fought (and my family and friends continues to fight - and have died) for yours and others right to freedom of speech. I may think are touched in the head, but I defend to the death your right to do so.
  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Here's the scoop, Dupe. I could not serve due to an odd blood disorder [G6PD deficiency] which was discovered in my brother who was serving in AK in the USAF which also effects me but to a much greater extent. Half of my family has served careers of 20+ years in either USMC or USAF, including a nephew who served in Gulf1. I tried serving by going through enlistment in both USMC and USA until my local congressman, Charlie Bennett, heard about this and wrote a letter to my recruiter which killed my efforts.

    My brother has served at the pleasure of the president in the capacity of Russian interpreter during US-Soviet presidential-level meetings over the past 15 years of his career. My father, USMC, served 2 tours of Vietnam in the early years before Johnson delivered the goods to corporate elites which destroyed half a million US families. Despite all the humorous jabs at each other within my family about the different branches and service levels, and differences in party affiliations, the one thing we are united about is this fallacious war on terror through the misuse and abuse of this nation's finest, most precious assets. From your blithe, trolling remarks, there are clearly some values you will never understand.
    So the short answer is "No".

    No need for the ***** measuring contest on family service records. (that would be p e n i s, which is a censored word - pathetic).

    Not sure what purpose that serves. I could go back to the Civil War, and every conflict since, and pull out dozens upon dozens of relative that have served. In current times - self, brothers, uncles, cousins, grandfather.

    I agree about the intra-service jabbings and such, but while they have varied opinions, none are as buffonish as what is in this thread.

    As my uncle used to say when he saw/met a moron, "I took 3 bullets for that turd?" And it cracked us all up every time.
  14. #134  
    You didn't ask me directly; you asked lifes2short in a quoted response to him. Or are you spewing so much vitriolic BS that you forgot that fact?

    If you did serve - and I am still doubtful you did - I'm pretty sure you served in the branch that accepts the lowest ASVAB scores.
  15. #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    So the short answer is "No".
    You asked. I answered. The very least you could do is to accept it with dignity.

    Your mistake in this forum, and likely in life, is that you believe every other person is a mirror-image of you, being a trolling, small person.

    No need for the ***** measuring contest on family service records. (that would be p e n i s, which is a censored word - pathetic).
    See above.

    Not sure what purpose that serves. I could go back to the Civil War, and every conflict since, and pull out dozens upon dozens of relative that have served. In current times - self, brothers, uncles, cousins, grandfather.
    See above.

    As my uncle used to say when he saw/met a moron, "I took 3 bullets for that turd?" And it cracked us all up every time.
    Sorry to hear that he could never wrap his noodle around the term 'service'.
  16. #136  
    One of my favorite sites...I wish it weren't getting so dated though.

    http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    You asked. I answered. The very least you could do is to accept it with dignity.

    Your mistake in this forum, and likely in life, is that you believe every other person is a mirror-image of you, being a trolling, small person.



    See above.



    See above.



    Sorry to hear that he could never wrap his noodle around the term 'service'.
    Dignity? And putting down my uncle is dignified?

    You started with the sob story and family history; I just replied.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    You didn't ask me directly; you asked lifes2short in a quoted response to him. Or are you spewing so much vitriolic BS that you forgot that fact?

    If you did serve - and I am still doubtful you did - I'm pretty sure you served in the branch that accepts the lowest ASVAB scores.
    Thanks for the insult; it's all in good fun until one of the "lessor" branches saves your a r s e.
  19. #139  
    What was your MOS?
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Dignity? And putting down my uncle is dignified?
    Those who served and believe they are judgmentally owed something don't understand what service means.

    You started with the sob story and family history; I just replied.
    So much for holding out hope that you could find the high road to take. Try using GPS next time since your moral compass is on the fritz.
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