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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    We did not pulverize them. Hardly.

    Granted, there are issues with Iraq, as they are with every war. Give them as much time as Japan and let's see what happens.

    In the age of instant information, everyone expects everythign to happen at hyperspeed.
    We didn't crush them and take control of the country in record time using "shock and awe" and just plain pummeling them? Since you're so fond of drawing parallels to WWII I should think you'd recognize that it took YEARS to finally overun the Germans. By that standard, we pulvarized the Iraqi army.

    In any event, you clearly can see no gray and are unable to even see the huge differences between two very different wars in two very different times in two very different places with two extraordinarily different enemies.

    Interestingly enough you've managed to support the claim for which the thread was started - that conservatives are...well...conservative...and progressives think more laterally about complex matters such as this.

    So let's treat this like Japan then....before you know it we'll have Osama Bin Laden signing a surrender on the deck of one of our carriers!
  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    And that plan is....?
    As I've said in previous post, I like Biden's plan.
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    #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I understand. Nobody likes the police until the need them. Nobody likes Walmart until they have a big sale either. "Free" anything almost always buys you temporary friends. But I'm not sure that should be construed as any sort of moral vindication of some our of our policies nor should that be held up as proof that we are still universally loved.
    Not saying that our generosity validates any policies, but you realize that we are held to a higher standard than those of other developed countries. If the rest of the world really hates us, then stop buying our products, get your governments to throw us out of your businesses, stop traveling here, don't take a degree in one of our universities, etc... We would get the message then. The world in general has a "me-first" attitude. What have you done for me lately?

    To get a little philosophical, we need to realize that in this age of instant information, we learn that the world is not a pretty place. During WWII, the only information the public got was what the news fed them. We didn't instantly know about the nature of the deaths in war. In the 50's, for example, most Americans didn't know (or care, really) about a tsunami in Indonesia. They didn't have the entertainers on our TV screens showing disasters live. Ignorance is bliss and we no longer have the luxury of ignorance. We learn everyday how cruel humans can be to each other. Not Americans, not Iraqis...humans. We crave an enemy on which to place all of the blame. The world has America to blame...and so do we.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    We didn't crush them and take control of the country in record time using "shock and awe" and just plain pummeling them?
    Even the most supportive of Republicans must be painfully aware that when a war is conducted by MBA standard practices [Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld], as this was, it's a lost cause before the first round is fired when the borders of the attacked nation are not/cannot be secured. Every action subsequent becomes a salvage job and troops are unnecessarily at greater risk. The history of this fiasco is a perfect mold of how not to successfully conduct war, conventional or nonconventional. To attempt to make political points about an insurgency [90+% of which is home grown according to DoD] which was known to be a very likely scenario but unplanned for is tantamount to treason while our troops are being killed. Those who cross that line, then politicize the scenario of the US government's use of its military as a 'victim', are domestic enemies.

    What limited lateral thinking which existed within this administration was muzzled so as not to detract from the lead-foot/feet driving it forward.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    Even the most supportive of Republicans must be painfully aware that when a war is conducted by MBA standard practices [Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld], as this was, it's a lost cause before the first round is fired when the borders of the attacked nation are not/cannot be secured. Every action subsequent becomes a salvage job and troops are unnecessarily at greater risk. The history of this fiasco is a perfect mold of how not to successfully conduct war, conventional or nonconventional. To attempt to make political points about an insurgency [90+% of which is home grown according to DoD] which was known to be a very likely scenario but unplanned for is tantamount to treason while our troops are being killed. Those who cross that line, then politicize the scenario of the US government's use of its military as a 'victim', are domestic enemies.

    What limited lateral thinking which existed within this administration was muzzled so as not to detract from the lead-foot/feet driving it forward.
    I think you understand my point of view, but to be sure - I did not condone this poorly planned and largely optional war. But I do believe our military carried out it's orders to destroy and conquer the enemy in record time and they can hardly be faulted for very poor (or no) post-war planning.
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I think you understand my point of view, but to be sure - I did not condone this poorly planned and largely optional war. But I do believe our military carried out it's orders to destroy and conquer the enemy in record time and they can hardly be faulted for very poor (or no) post-war planning.
    I agree. I do not accept the fantasy reasoning propagandized by this administration. I'm embarrassed as an American that this nation did not demand better from its government. We're supposed to be the best? Then stop whining that every other nation thought Saddam had WMD. That crowd cannot have it both ways.

    Our military has done an extraordinary job especially given how little they had to operate with in terms of self defense and broad mission goals. They have nothing to hang their heads about. There have been highly regrettable methods, orders given and actions taken, which is another subject unto itself, but by far our military should be very proud.

    However, when the US military is used in such an inappropriate way, as this administration has, as a means for political gain, of orchestrating events politically favorable to them, I take high exception. The use of 'professional' paramilitary for-profit companies, the abusive use of the National Guard and Reserve is contemptuous. This administration has been the battering husband in this relationship. Would I be at all concerned if our military finally had enough of being used abusively, rose up to finally say 'No more!'? Not at all. Possible? Not at all which is unfortunate given the extreme circumstances.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    We didn't crush them and take control of the country in record time using "shock and awe" and just plain pummeling them? Since you're so fond of drawing parallels to WWII I should think you'd recognize that it took YEARS to finally overun the Germans. By that standard, we pulvarized the Iraqi army.

    In any event, you clearly can see no gray and are unable to even see the huge differences between two very different wars in two very different times in two very different places with two extraordinarily different enemies.

    Interestingly enough you've managed to support the claim for which the thread was started - that conservatives are...well...conservative...and progressives think more laterally about complex matters such as this.

    So let's treat this like Japan then....before you know it we'll have Osama Bin Laden signing a surrender on the deck of one of our carriers!
    Actually, I never drew parallels between WWII and Iraq; you're the only one doing that.

    As far as country flipping, yes, it was "fast" for both Afghanistan and Iraq - but there is a big difference between removing a gov't regime and completely laying to waste a whole country.

    Again, I see all colors of the spectrum fine; they are absolutely different in many respects. There are some macro similarities, but I agree it is very different.

    Labelling people "liberal" or "conservative" is lame and non-productive. You are either ignorant or elightened. Neither fit the lib/con mold.

    Treat is like Japan? I don't think so. That time has past.
  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorray View Post
    Not saying that our generosity validates any policies, but you realize that we are held to a higher standard than those of other developed countries. If the rest of the world really hates us, then stop buying our products, get your governments to throw us out of your businesses, stop traveling here, don't take a degree in one of our universities, etc... We would get the message then. The world in general has a "me-first" attitude. What have you done for me lately?

    To get a little philosophical, we need to realize that in this age of instant information, we learn that the world is not a pretty place. During WWII, the only information the public got was what the news fed them. We didn't instantly know about the nature of the deaths in war. In the 50's, for example, most Americans didn't know (or care, really) about a tsunami in Indonesia. They didn't have the entertainers on our TV screens showing disasters live. Ignorance is bliss and we no longer have the luxury of ignorance. We learn everyday how cruel humans can be to each other. Not Americans, not Iraqis...humans. We crave an enemy on which to place all of the blame. The world has America to blame...and so do we.
    America is to blame for everything....uh right.

    We also got to see savages cut the head off a live person. Please enlighten me on groups that have done that. I'm sure we get to see the ugliness...but ours pales in comparison to theirs.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    I agree. I do not accept the fantasy reasoning propagandized by this administration. I'm embarrassed as an American that this nation did not demand better from its government. We're supposed to be the best? Then stop whining that every other nation thought Saddam had WMD. That crowd cannot have it both ways.

    Our military has done an extraordinary job especially given how little they had to operate with in terms of self defense and broad mission goals. They have nothing to hang their heads about. There have been highly regrettable methods, orders given and actions taken, which is another subject unto itself, but by far our military should be very proud.

    However, when the US military is used in such an inappropriate way, as this administration has, as a means for political gain, of orchestrating events politically favorable to them, I take high exception. The use of 'professional' paramilitary for-profit companies, the abusive use of the National Guard and Reserve is contemptuous. This administration has been the battering husband in this relationship. Would I be at all concerned if our military finally had enough of being used abusively, rose up to finally say 'No more!'? Not at all. Possible? Not at all which is unfortunate given the extreme circumstances.
    Um, have any of you served in Afghanistan or Iraq?

    You really don't understand the people that serve our country.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    America is to blame for everything....uh right.

    We also got to see savages cut the head off a live person. Please enlighten me on groups that have done that. I'm sure we get to see the ugliness...but ours pales in comparison to theirs.
    Think any other war has been less savage? And you have the nerve to ask about having served?
    Last edited by lifes2short; 09/20/2007 at 06:22 PM.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    As far as Katrina, quite frankly, the blame on that lies with the governor of LA and Mayor of New Orleans.

    Their poor planning and decisions created a lot of problems (granted it sucked, but they made it worse).
    I think you're oversimplifying things quite a bit. OTOH, so is the other side. There were many issues within the umbrella called Katrina. Mee-maw and Willy Wonka were mostly to blame for not getting people out of there _before_ the storm (although the people who didn't evacuate must assume some personal responsibility as well). The Bushie, Brownie, and the feds should have had better response _after_ the storm (Fix Everything My A$$). The biggest share of the debacle should rest with Congress and the Corps for not being smarter for quite a long time. They've ignored the coast for too long, and most of their activities have just made things worse. Ironically, they have focused on New Orleans for so long (trying to control the Mississippi and keep it flowing through NOLA) that they wound up hurting us all.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Um, have any of you served in Afghanistan or Iraq?
    The question is - did you? Did you serve at all?
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    I think you're oversimplifying things quite a bit. OTOH, so is the other side. There were many issues within the umbrella called Katrina. Mee-maw and Willy Wonka were mostly to blame for not getting people out of there _before_ the storm (although the people who didn't evacuate must assume some personal responsibility as well). The Bushie, Brownie, and the feds should have had better response _after_ the storm (Fix Everything My A$$). The biggest share of the debacle should rest with Congress and the Corps for not being smarter for quite a long time. They've ignored the coast for too long, and most of their activities have just made things worse. Ironically, they have focused on New Orleans for so long (trying to control the Mississippi and keep it flowing through NOLA) that they wound up hurting us all.
    I agree. Lot's of blame to go around on Katrina. Dems, Repubs, state, fed, army corps, etc. The mayor was an *****. But FEMA and the arabian horse man weren't exactly the crack team that responded to other hurricanes such as Andrew. And President I-get-1-out-of-8-years-of-my-Presidency-on-vacation Bush stayed comfortably on vacation.
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    The mayor was an *****.
    He's somewhat like the Saints. He's a screwup, but he's 'our' screwup.
    But FEMA and the arabian horse man weren't exactly the crack team that responded to other hurricanes such as Andrew.
    Meh. If Katrina had happened to Florida, I think you'd have seen a much different response. Hell, Katrina happened to Mississippi much worse than it happened to NOLA, and it didn't get quite the same coverage. The only reason that Katrina got the national coverage it did was that the media saw it as a ratings opportunity and the Bush detractors saw it as an opportunity to bash Bush. That being said, FEMA being absorbed into DHS, while certainly proving the John Birch types wrong on the scope of its power, was definitely not conducive to it being a functional entity.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    He's somewhat like the Saints. He's a screwup, but he's 'our' screwup.

    Meh. If Katrina had happened to Florida, I think you'd have seen a much different response. Hell, Katrina happened to Mississippi much worse than it happened to NOLA, and it didn't get quite the same coverage. The only reason that Katrina got the national coverage it did was that the media saw it as a ratings opportunity and the Bush detractors saw it as an opportunity to bash Bush. That being said, FEMA being absorbed into DHS, while certainly proving the John Birch types wrong on the scope of its power, was definitely not conducive to it being a functional entity.
    Sounds like we largely agree....except on the subject of the whole Bush thing of course. I think had I been you and I saw Captain Hee Haw still vacationing days after the hurricane hit I may have drove to Crawford to slap him upside the head myself. Maybe twice - once for hiring an unqualified crony like Brownie and a second for sitting on his arse while an American city was literally being eradicated. But I see that your a loyal subject so I'll accept our new found common ground and move on to a new battle.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    He's somewhat like the Saints. He's a screwup, but he's 'our' screwup.

    Meh. If Katrina had happened to Florida, I think you'd have seen a much different response. Hell, Katrina happened to Mississippi much worse than it happened to NOLA, and it didn't get quite the same coverage. The only reason that Katrina got the national coverage it did was that the media saw it as a ratings opportunity and the Bush detractors saw it as an opportunity to bash Bush.
    I strongly disagree. Although the damage to Mississippi may have been greater in totality, there was no large-scale economic center which was almost wiped off the map. While I, personally, take exception with economics being the last remaining universal value in this country, the coverage of New Orleans was warranted.

    Just a might overly sensitive about political detractors, aren't you? 'Bash Bush' is about as stale as 'Freedom Fries'.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by gatorray View Post
    Not saying that our generosity validates any policies, but you realize that we are held to a higher standard than those of other developed countries. If the rest of the world really hates us, then stop buying our products, get your governments to throw us out of your businesses, stop traveling here, don't take a degree in one of our universities, etc... We would get the message then.
    Unfortunately for the US, many other major regions and cultures value principles over property. When trade in Xerox, for example, is heavy in a foreign area of the world, it should not be defined by Xerox that their philosophies, methods and practices are accepted well. A product, regardless of its economic value, is just a product. Just because the US could learn some skewed lesson about acceptance when one of its market segments dries up does not equate in the reverse. Our values are not, nor should they be, the values of the world. Iran is the perfect example of how not to disengage. Thanks Ronnie!
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Actually, the "War on terror" is not being treated like wars of yesteryear. If it was, we would've firebombed Afghanistan and Iraq into oblivion, ala Japan on WWII (See the Fog of War, people!)

    IMHO, we are going out of our way to be "sensitive" and "nice". Two things that don't work well in war.
    I had earlier asked why you wanted us to have seen The Fog of War -- what was the specific point you wanted us to understand from seeing the film.

    FWIW, I have seen the Fog of War.

    (this is no big deal, but) I saw it at a private screening with both Bob McNamara and Errol Morris in attendance. There was a lengthy and in depth dialogue that followed the screening, and I was fortunate in being able to talk with both Errol Morris and Mr. McNamara.

    the following are some of the raw notes which my Treo still has, of that session :



    Fire bimbing japan - 83k killed -- leaders didn't know of the numbers killed 900k atomic age could v e been a oide

    would lbj have ende war if he wasreelected -- did LBJ know he was wrong
    why not critze war during the nixon yrs
    would japan have unconditioally surrender w o a bomb
    thought we should chg our policies - mac has gone soft on us the war - the majority of us supported the war
    our liv standard is less than our per capita is apropriate
    more on world bank
    could not speak out against bixon because his voice would have too powerful endangering us soldoeed giving aid comnfort to nvietnam
    accepting enperor would hacve enable jap surrend wo a omb
    doesbot kbow if lbj would bot have cont war in 2nd term
    no contact w nvietnam during war + tonkin gulf events big regret -- in 68 chance presented for direct contact w ho chi mihn

    morris -- least ironi movie ??
    9ac would have prefered different lessons -- a perferce self hel¶book -- getting data but what if the data is wrong
    those unfamiliar w history are destined to repeat it w o irony
    mac unigh going tóhanoi moscow to revisit history + past
    wife was intermediary for mac to communiate abot feelings
    difference between we were wrong + I'm sorry
    why do people think the movie book are mea culpa
    I w8t to see him wrestle w his past than an apology
    why he won't speak out aganst iraq -- he's still second of def

    best + brightest supported war plan
    they belirved 2nd attak in tnkin gulf tho not sure
    morris were we deliberately provokative ?

    at tme of tnkin gulf why no contact w n vietnam

    morris-- mac really believed in 2nd tonkin attack
    no arms race w o a bomb drop



    I could translate all that, or quote from what I ultimately wrote based on those notes, but you get the idea.

    So what points are you making ?? What lesson have YOU drawn from McNamara's life as Errol Morris portrayed it ??
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/21/2007 at 03:54 AM.
    755P Sprint SERO (upgraded from unlocked GSM 650 on T-Mobile)
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Sounds like we largely agree....except on the subject of the whole Bush thing of course.
    I think we probably agree more than disagree there too. You're just making erroneous assumptions on my thoughts on Bush apparently.
    I think had I been you and I saw Captain Hee Haw still vacationing days after the hurricane hit I may have drove to Crawford to slap him upside the head myself.
    I had more pressing issues at the time, and it seems to me that you wouldn't even need that much of an excuse.
    Maybe twice - once for hiring an unqualified crony like Brownie and a second for sitting on his arse while an American city was literally being eradicated.
    You know, NOLA has been in decline for quite a while now. Nobody gave two $hit$ about it or the larger issues as long as there were still Girls Gone Wild videos being made and tatas being shown for beads. New Orleans is not even close to eradicated. Sure it's in a bad way, but not eradicated. Eradicated is most of St. Bernard Parish. Eradicated is Waveland.
    But I see that your a loyal subject so I'll accept our new found common ground and move on to a new battle.
    I see that you're still having some issues with either prejudice or reading comprehension. I am not a loyal anything where Bushie is concerned. However, I think he is being given an overly large share of the blame by quite a few apparently including yourself. Put your stick away.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    I strongly disagree.
    That's fine. How many storms have you been through?
    Although the damage to Mississippi may have been greater in totality, there was no large-scale economic center which was almost wiped off the map.
    I think Gulfport and Biloxi might disagree.
    While I, personally, take exception with economics being the last remaining universal value in this country, the coverage of New Orleans was warranted.
    I think you misunderstand my point. I didn't say it wasn't warranted.
    Just a might overly sensitive about political detractors, aren't you?
    I couldn't care less about his detractors per se. I am a mite sensitive about political opportunism at my state's expense, though.
    'Bash Bush' is about as stale as 'Freedom Fries'.
    We agree, but probably for different reasons. Strange how I'm being viewed as a Bush supporter when my comments were in response to someone saying that Blanco and Nagin were responsible, and I disagreed.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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