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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    No. I simply didn't bite on your deflective bait. I'm uninterested in your attempts to distract.

    You castigate those who take exception with Bush's prosecution of the unnecessary war against Iraq, yet it is the responsibility of those who plan and prosecute the war to provide the public clarity necessary to have their nation behind them. So, again, what is [present tense] the plan? Coming from the President of the United States, anything shy of that 'vision' of how to bring about victory is worthy of objective ridicule.
    Deflective bait and attempts to distract? Ok. I didn't realize I was doing that. I was just looking for suggestions as to a solution rather than heaps of criticism. I've heard lots of whining in my day but never saw a whine solve a problem. And the "unnecessary" war in Iraq is truly just your opinion, but I'll respect your opinion.
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bri Guy View Post
    I read Biden's plan. Thank you for the link. I agree with many points. What has Biden done about any of it? Perhaps it's worth trying. Have we attempted to implement any of his points already? Is he just trying to get elected? (Can't help being a little cynical about politicians these days).

    I enjoy healthy debate. I hope we both can avoid accusing the other of over-simplification or narrow-mindedness just because we don't agree on all points.
    Thank you for reading it. Biden has tried to my knowledge but hasn't gotten broad support for it. Ironically, there are mutterings from the GOP that portions of it will be adopted...of course they'll never admit that. Even more ironically, Nancy and Reid (who I hold in contempt for different reasons than you) haven't done all that much to embrace his plan either.
  3. #63  
    With all your references to WWII, one must have to wonder what the Japanese would be thought of today if they had only killed another 500 at Pearl Harbor. They only scored 2300+ afterall. Hate the Japanese, do you? Have anything against Shinto?

    Oh ... and uhh ... [again] What is the Bush plan for victory in Iraq that I should be rallying behind rather than applying critical thought toward?
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    What you believe and what history will show are two very different things. While Pearl Harbor acted as our motivation to join the war, the fact is our allies were all at war and needed our help. Hitler occupied much of Europe and was threatening to invade every country on the planet. Now if you are drwaing parallels of Nazism to radical Musilims declaring holy war, well OK, I can see that and recognize, and support our fight against terrorism.

    I know the history, thanks. I see the condescencion continues. However, my whole point is Saddam and Hitler are quite comparable in their ability to kill millions (yes, Saddam also killed millions).

    As a veteran you've made my blood boil with this sort of BS. You have no friggin' idea what you are talking about. So anyone that criticizes the war are only interested in seeing Bush fail? I criticize the war because it was it poorly justified, poorly planned, and poorly executed.

    I appreciate that you are a veteran, but again, it doesn't make you smarter or better than anyone else. I sincerely doubt you have a fountain of truth, knowledge and widsom in your backyard that you are only privy to. Everything you just said about your criticizm of the war ("poorly this, poorly that") is opinion, but duly noted.


    Really? Saddam vs. Hitler? Are you truly that daft? Still name-calling here? I thought we were beyond that. Hitler killed 6MM Jews and invaded dozens of our allies triggering WWII. Is it really even comparable to Saddam at all? Saddam was surrounded and being inspected by UN inspectors. He didn't occupy any allies that I know of (we took care of that during GW1). How exactly are they comparable again? Saddam was a dictator who killed millions. I guess he was an alright guy otherwise. We should have left him alone.



    I really don't hate Bush that much. I hate those that have propped him up as being something other than a spoiled pisspot that has failed at everything he ever did in his life (with the minor exception being Governor, and even that is debatable) - you know the Karen Hughes, Dan Bartletts, and of course Karl Roves. But I hold an especially deep hatred for those that exploited his obvious intellectual shortcomings, such as Cheney and Rummy.
    Have you ever met Bush? Do you have personal knowledge of his "obvious intellectual shortcomings?" Speaking of rhetorical BS.... what president have we NOT ridiculed for intellectual shortcomings? Back to monday-morning quarterbacking --- hindsight makes ANYONE look stupid. I don't believe that Iraq has been a wild success; there have been blunders. But I think we both agree that we need to finish what we started to the best of our ability and exit the best way we can.
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by lifes2short View Post
    With all your references to WWII, one must have to wonder what the Japanese would be thought of today if they had only killed another 500 at Pearl Harbor. They only scored 2300+ afterall. Hate the Japanese, do you? Have anything against Shinto?

    Ummm.... what??

    Oh ... and uhh ... [again] What is the Bush plan for victory in Iraq that I should be rallying behind rather than applying critical thought toward?
    Please just read the many posts where we've been discussing a plan, or lack thereof, and our ideas for a possible solution.
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  6. #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bri Guy View Post
    Have you ever met Bush? Do you have personal knowledge of his "obvious intellectual shortcomings?"
    There are volumes of books, calendars, and YouTube clips highlighting his greatest hits. Perhaps someday he'll get an IQ test done and then we'll all know (not that I put a lof of stock in IQ tests).

    Speaking of rhetorical BS.... what president have we NOT ridiculed for intellectual shortcomings? Back to monday-morning quarterbacking --- hindsight makes ANYONE look stupid.
    I don't believe Clinton was ever accused of being stupid. Quite the opposite - the GOP hated him because he was so damn smart. Well at least one head was....

    I don't believe that Iraq has been a wild success; there have been blunders. But I think we both agree that we need to finish what we started to the best of our ability and exit the best way we can.
    OK. Assuming Biden's plan is a good start toward common ground, what elements of it do you disagree with?
  7. #67  
    Saddam was a dictator who killed millions. I guess he was an alright guy otherwise. We should have left him alone.
    You keep making the leap that because I did not support this war that that equates to my desire to leave Saddam alone. You're wrong. My issue was with the timing and the lack of a clear and present danger. The circumstances in which we entered WWII (Hitler invading allies, Pearl Harbor, etc.) are very different than conditions under which we went to war in Iraq.

    In the end, the Iraq war will go down in history as the most expensive assasination ever - $1 trillion dollars and thousands of lives to kill one man. A very bad man. But one man nonetheless.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post

    I don't believe Clinton was ever accused of being stupid. Quite the opposite - the GOP hated him because he was so damn smart. Well at least one head was....

    Perhaps we both agree that Clinton has no self-control. Not the kind of trait I want in a guy carrying the football, but that's no longer a problem (unless HRC gets the nod).


    OK. Assuming Biden's plan is a good start toward common ground, what elements of it do you disagree with?
    Honestly, I would need to examine his points more closely, but giving it a once-over, I don't disagree with any points of his plan. I'm skeptical that it will work, and maybe that skepticism is more based on my belief that he's being more a political opportunist than just a guy wanting to help. Regardless of his motivation, if the plan works, great. I have no opposition to giving it a try!
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bri Guy View Post
    Please just read the many posts where we've been discussing a plan, or lack thereof, and our ideas for a possible solution.
    Since you don't exactly have the President's ear, I'm uninterested in your personal thoughts on alternatives. What's the Bush plan that you support and are in defense of regarding the US's glorious victory in Iraq?
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    You keep making the leap that because I did not support this war that that equates to my desire to leave Saddam alone. You're wrong. My issue was with the timing and the lack of a clear and present danger. The circumstances in which we entered WWII (Hitler invading allies, Pearl Harbor, etc.) are very different than conditions under which we went to war in Iraq.

    In the end, the Iraq war will go down in history as the most expensive assasination ever - $1 trillion dollars and thousands of lives to kill one man. A very bad man. But one man nonetheless.
    Well, this point is where you and I will have to agree to disagree. I believe that, although different types of wars and fought different ways with different players, the danger was there. The end may someday justify the means, and maybe not. What's done is done, and I agree with you that now we need an exit strategy and, for heaven's sake, we need to wake up as a country and (different topic here, I realize that) we need to dispense with all the PC crap and get very smart how we handle terrorism.
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bri Guy View Post
    Honestly, I would need to examine his points more closely, but giving it a once-over, I don't disagree with any points of his plan. I'm skeptical that it will work, and maybe that skepticism is more based on my belief that he's being more a political opportunist than just a guy wanting to help. Regardless of his motivation, if the plan works, great. I have no opposition to giving it a try!
    I'm skeptical of anything any elected official presents. Its all just hot air until they implement their grand plans. That said, I think he presents the best plan that I've seen and hope that it gets adopted...with or without him being attached to it.

    As far as Clinton....look, I didn't vote for him either but in retrospect have grown to admire his intellect and Presidency aside from his extra marital affairs. But where we differ is that we were all promised that Bush would restore honor and integrity to the oval office and from my vantage point just the opposite has happened. And what makes it even worse is that his transgressions involve much more than his third leg.
  12. #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I'm skeptical of anything any elected official presents. Its all just hot air until they implement their grand plans. That said, I think he presents the best plan that I've seen and hope that it gets adopted...with or without him being attached to it.

    As far as Clinton....look, I didn't vote for him either but in retrospect have grown to admire his intellect and Presidency aside from his extra marital affairs. But where we differ is that we were all promised that Bush would restore honor and integrity to the oval office and from my vantage point just the opposite has happened. And what makes it even worse is that his transgressions involve much more than his third leg.
    I can't subscribe to your point of view that Bush lacks honor and integrity. One can still possess honor and integrity and be misinformed or, simply, make some bad decisions when presented with tough situations. I've tried to judge Clinton less harshly over the years because I realize I don't really know what is in his head or heart. The same goes with Bush -- I don't believe anyone is in a position to know his head and heart.

    It's been an interesting debate --- I gotta hit the sack; I'm also drawing the ire of my wife. Thanks for your insights and have a good night.
    Palm since Palm Professional --- Treo 650 (2 yrs), iPhone since 6/29/07
  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    There are volumes of books, calendars, and YouTube clips highlighting his greatest hits. Perhaps someday he'll get an IQ test done and then we'll all know (not that I put a lof of stock in IQ tests).
    The APEC meeting in Sydney 2 weeks ago was a perfect showcasing. Even Reuters had a feature story about it. Spoken language is just not Bush's friend.

    Bri - Nighty-night, Mr. Avoidance.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bri Guy View Post
    I can't subscribe to your point of view that Bush lacks honor and integrity. One can still possess honor and integrity and be misinformed or, simply, make some bad decisions when presented with tough situations.
    Well except for the fact that he just got caught in a lie that pi$$ed off Paul Bremer regarding the order to disband the Iraqi army. Those are little lies that just add up to something much worse than lying about an affair to me. He lied to cover his a$$ and gave up a former trusted colleague. But I digress...

    ...thank you for your insights as well.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bri Guy View Post
    Since we're in a quoting mood:

    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
    Brave words from someone [JSM] who never spent one day in military service, huh?
    (I like Eisenhower's quote better)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bri Guy View Post
    A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --- John Stuart Mill
    [JSM's example] reminds me of all of those chickenhawks out there who, instead of risking their own necks, exert their bravery through internet warmongering.
    Last edited by cellmatrix; 09/18/2007 at 06:17 PM. Reason: clarified reference was to JSM
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Brave words from someone who never spent one day in military service, huh?
    (I like Eisenhower's quote better)

    Reminds me of all of those chickenhawks out there who, instead of risking their own necks, exert their bravery through internet warmongering.

    I love having my patriotism called into question by those that haven't served. I love it even more so when they spin my lack of support for the Iraq war into a broader accusation that I'm against the war on terror.

    Let me try and put this in perspective or rather, paint an analogy.

    Just for a moment imagine you have set up camp behind enemy lines and have rigged up your perimeter and lie in wait on line around this perimeter from any direction. Suddenly a woman and a small child approach the perimeter from your 1 o'clock position and the child explodes and blows up 4 of your buddies. A horrific scene to be sure for many reasons. And a seasoned officer would know to hold the line and not to allow this diversionary tactic weaken your defenses around the perimeter. But an inexperienced butter-bar may well redirect too many troops to lay down fire at the point of attack. A butter-bar that directs ALL of the troops to that position may well find himself fragged because he would cost a lot more lives making such an incompetent decision.

    Now replace the camp with the war on terror; the point of attack at the 1 o'clock position with Iraq; and the butter-bar with GW Bush. That pretty much sums up my feelings about Iraq. It's not that I am any less patriotic or that I have less of an appreciation that we have a real enemy to fight. It’s that the butter-bar in charge has just sent all of my buddies to the 1 o’clock position and the enemy is now “in the wire” and we’re running out of time to get back on line and hold the perimeter.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    http://www.slate.com/id/2173965

    "The conservative case against this study is easy to make. Sure, we're fonder of old ways than you are. That's in our definition. Some of our people are obtuse; so are some of yours. If you studied the rest of us in real life, you'd find that while we second-guess the status quo less than you do, we second-guess putative reforms more than you do, so in terms of complexity, ambiguity, and critical thinking, it's probably a wash."
    Is there something wrong with you? Can't you see that the 'conservatives' and 'liberals' are trying to have an ad hominem fight here? How dare you try to address the original topic. The only thing that could have made your post worse would be to add some additional insight such as "it's obvious the data was interpreted by a liberal. If it were interpreted by a conservative, the conclusion would have been that liberals are obviously predisposed towards knee-jerk reactions." You, sir, have lost the game.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Brave words from someone who never spent one day in military service, huh? (I like Eisenhower's quote better)

    Reminds me of all of those chickenhawks out there who, instead of risking their own necks, exert their bravery through internet warmongering.
    According to the right, Eisenhower must get a pass on his extra-marital foibles since he served in uniform. A flexible point morality-system they use, something like Weight Watchers perhaps? Maybe it simply doesn't count since, according to Ms. Summersby, Ike wasn't able to complete the transaction, although there were multiple attempts.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I love having my patriotism called into question by those that haven't served.
    Its probably not a coincidence that John Stuart Mill propped up 19th century British Imperialism with many of the same basic arguments that our present day neocons are using to justify 21th Century US Imperialism.
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    #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I love having my patriotism called into question by those that haven't served. I love it even more so when they spin my lack of support for the Iraq war into a broader accusation that I'm against the war on terror.

    Let me try and put this in perspective or rather, paint an analogy.

    Just for a moment imagine you have set up camp behind enemy lines and have rigged up your perimeter and lie in wait on line around this perimeter from any direction. Suddenly a woman and a small child approach the perimeter from your 1 o'clock position and the child explodes and blows up 4 of your buddies. A horrific scene to be sure for many reasons. And a seasoned officer would know to hold the line and not to allow this diversionary tactic weaken your defenses around the perimeter. But an inexperienced butter-bar may well redirect too many troops to lay down fire at the point of attack. A butter-bar that directs ALL of the troops to that position may well find himself fragged because he would cost a lot more lives making such an incompetent decision.

    Now replace the camp with the war on terror; the point of attack at the 1 o'clock position with Iraq; and the butter-bar with GW Bush. That pretty much sums up my feelings about Iraq. It's not that I am any less patriotic or that I have less of an appreciation that we have a real enemy to fight. It’s that the butter-bar in charge has just sent all of my buddies to the 1 o’clock position and the enemy is now “in the wire” and we’re running out of time to get back on line and hold the perimeter.
    Good analogy. I would like to add another point, though. I will not try to compare WWII with Iraq directly, but bear with me. After WWII, Europe was in turmoil. Our presence there helped stabilize that area, and was tantamount to keeping the peace throughout the Cold War. With Iraq, I think that we would benefit from a military presence in the Middle East.

    Hopefully our military has gathered enough intelligence while on the ground in Iraq and more importantly, learned how to develop human intelligence in the area.

    BTW, I am a vet, served during Gulf 1, and also spent a considerable amount of time in Europe. I applauded our response to 9/11 at first, believing that we had the intelligence to support our actions. My support has lessened considerably since then. I would like to see a solid exit plan (focus on intelligence gathering).
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