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  1. #21  
    If they labeled the button "Bomb Them", I am sure you would get a better reaction from Conservatives.
  2. #22  
    Holding up those countries as examples shows you really don't get it.

    Have you even been to those countries?
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Liberals (or progressives) fought and died for freedom and the creation of this country while conservatives kissed the Kings' a$$ and sided with the red coats in the south in droves.
    Not much has really changed, has it?
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Holding up those countries as examples shows you really don't get it.

    Have you even been to those countries?

    been to Japan... why ??


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    Last edited by BARYE; 09/16/2007 at 11:02 PM.
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  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I see -- like those big government, oppressive, impoverished nations: Norway, Sweden, and Japan ...
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Holding up those countries as examples shows you really don't get it.
    Of course, Japan is largely the product of American opportunism post-WWII. Mikec should get out more often and experience the history.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by mikec View Post
    Well, for one, more information and education leads to more freedom...more freedom leads to prosperity.

    And the bigger the govt (relative to population and geograhy, the worse it is for the nation.

    Common language fosters success. and overtaxation is a leading cause of revolt.

    If you want to talk about a specific period of time/events, please submit one and we can discuss.
    Actually you pretty much made my case for me so I'll pass. Each of your statements above are so broad, overreaching, and unsubstantiated that it proves it would be like beating my head against a wall trying to debate with you.

    I'd rather go a few rounds with Hobbes or Shop any day as they can at least articulate their positions...whether I agree with them or not is another matter.
  7. #27  
    mikec, among the reforms IMPOSED upon the Japanese by MacArthur (a VERY conservative republican), was the liberation, suffragization, and empowerment of women; the protection of a free press; the legalization of opposition parties including Communists; protecting the rights of workers to strike and form unions; and the enshrinement as a constitutional requirement that Japan never engage in aggressive non-defensive combat.

    What was it about Japan that you thought we should know ??
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  8. #28  
    Cellmatrix said...

    <<So, anyone who thinks it's just great to spend over 100 times as much money (500 billion) on killing people in Iraq, than in trying to find a cure for the half million Americans who die from cancer each year (National Cancer Institute budget 4.7 billion) has a different kind of thinking process - one which I cannot understand. Maybe this congition study is onto something after all. >>

    What if the failure to spend the 500 billion in Iraq meant that the US ceased to exist, and the new islamofascists who would take over (assuming they leave anything left here to take over) would not spend the money on cancer either, but instead use it to outfit our women with burka's and force our attendance at their mosques?

    Curing cancer is a noble, worthwhile goal. It is only something a nation can attempt if it is secure and it's people are alive. Dead scientists can't do cancer research very well.

    Security has to come first, only then can money and effort be spent on the "luxury" (nice as it would be) of curing disease, eradicating poverty, providing healthcare, and other favorite things that can be done when a country is safe, secure, and profitable enough to invest in these efforts.

    By the way, private entities (including rich people who are so demonized) can band together and voluntarilly contribute to fund research or meet these other needs. We don't let Billy Gates form his own armed military to defend Redmond, or Steve Jobs to defend Cuppertino. Defense is something only the feds are allowed to do, it is their main or only reason for existence. Anything else they do is just gravy, but not required.
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       #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1 View Post
    What if the failure to spend the 500 billion in Iraq meant that the US ceased to exist, and the new islamofascists who would take over...
    I don't think there was much likelihood of them taking over before Sadam was toppled. We used to spend lots of money propping him up to prevent that!

    But that was before he got those WMDs and masterminded 7/11 of course!
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1 View Post
    What if the failure to spend the 500 billion in Iraq meant that the US ceased to exist, and the new islamofascists who would take over (assuming they leave anything left here to take over) would not spend the money on cancer either, but instead use it to outfit our women with burka's and force our attendance at their mosques?
    Another Fox News junkie....

    The US ceased to exist? I hadn't realized the GOP managed to brain wash some into actually thinking radical muslims could some day parachute into our backyards and take over our country....ala the movie "Red Dawn".

    Let's see how this would go....leading them all will be Nobody-puts-baby-in-the-corner-Patrick-Swayze along with all of the other Hollywood Elite's who will help the radical muslims overrun our country....our freedoms.....our ideals.....scary stuff. You all better wake up or Patrick could be visiting you soon. And don't complain to guys like mikec or duanedude1 when they blow your house up with a dirty bomb. Wake up to the "liberal agenda" - they all hate freedom.

    Back to reality. It should be apparent to all who are brave enough to be free to begin with that this sort of mentality is what got many a failed nation into trouble by allowing their government use fear to manipulate them.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1
    Curing cancer is a noble, worthwhile goal. It is only something a nation can attempt if it is secure and it's people are alive. Dead scientists can't do cancer research very well.
    Guess Iraq will have to import any research scientists if it wants to contribute to such a 'luxury', since over 80% of their academics have left our quagmire or have died trying.

    Defense is something only the feds are allowed to do, it is their main or only reason for existence.
    Sell that national defense explanation to the families of every Guardsman who has sacrificed life and limb. Every single State has paid more than its fair share in Guard blood in this Iraq tarbaby [term reference: Song Of The South by Disney] because our 'federal' defense is physically incapable.

  12. #32  
    <<Sell that national defense explanation to the families of every Guardsman who has sacrificed life and limb.>>

    Seems it would be harder for those families to accept that their loved ones were fools for dieing in vain... the very message they would get if we pulled out now with no possibility that Iraq would not devolve into a success for the bad guys. At least IF Iraq can survive a reasoned, measured withdrawl of our troops, those who died would have given their lives for something worthwhile.

    It still remains the federal government's responsibility to defend.... cancer research is not one of the powers or responsibilities given to the feds by the constitution. How much scientific research is done in such terrorist areas? Unless it is research into WMD's (which there WAS a research program for).

    Actually- I think they would rather kill us all than take us over... we are the Great Satan, remember. And any unwilling to convert, liberal or conservative, would be the first to be killed. Wasn't it nice of Osama to encourage us in his latest video to convert ("Or Else" insinuated)?

    Trying to label me as Fox News brainwashed? I don't call y'all Daily Koss Kooks (likewise brainwashed).
    Last edited by duanedude1; 09/17/2007 at 09:38 AM.
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       #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1 View Post
    ... the very message they would get if we pulled out now with no possibility that Iraq would not devolve into a success for the bad guys.
    Genuine question - just who are the "bad guys" when it comes to the Iraq invasion and occupation, given that most Iraqis apparently think it's much worse there now than it was under Sadam??
    Last edited by tirk; 09/17/2007 at 09:56 AM.
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  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1
    It still remains the federal government's responsibility to defend.
    Again, you miss the point that State Guards are doing a disproportionate share of the heavy-lifting. Further, our constitution does not allow for any 'defense' to take place on sovereign foreign soil 'preemptively'.

    Actually- I think they would rather kill us all than take us over... we are the Great Satan, remember. And any unwilling to convert, liberal or conservative, would be the first to be killed. Wasn't it nice of Osama to encourage us in his latest video to convert ("Or Else" insinuated)?
    You only legitimize their rants by fearing them from afar. It's not honorable nor American to sustain fear by regurgitating it. Think wars in Vietnam or Korea were any more 'civilized' or just not featured on YouTube?
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1 View Post
    What if the failure to spend the 500 billion in Iraq meant that the US ceased to exist, and the new islamofascists who would take over
    Half a trillion in Iraq saved us from the new islamofascist takeover?
    (Hmmm, the study said altered, not absent cognition, whats the deal here? )
  16. #36  
    Genuine question - just who are the "bad guys" when it comes to the Iraq invasion and occupation, given that most Iraqis apparently think it's much worse there now than it was under Sadam??
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    Last edited by tirk : Today at 09:56 AM.

    The "Bad guys" would be all those who want us dead.
    Al-Q, "insurgents", those who plant the IED's and use women and kids to blow up soldiers & civilians... etc.





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    Today, 10:19 AM #34 lifes2short vbmenu_register("postmenu_1346931", true);
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by duanedude1
    It still remains the federal government's responsibility to defend.


    Again, you miss the point that State Guards are doing a disproportionate share of the heavy-lifting. Further, our constitution does not allow for any 'defense' to take place on sovereign foreign soil 'preemptively'.

    Quote:
    Actually- I think they would rather kill us all than take us over... we are the Great Satan, remember. And any unwilling to convert, liberal or conservative, would be the first to be killed. Wasn't it nice of Osama to encourage us in his latest video to convert ("Or Else" insinuated)?

    You only legitimize their rants by fearing them from afar. It's not honorable nor American to sustain fear by regurgitating it. Think wars in Vietnam or Korea were any more 'civilized' or just not featured on YouTube?


    O.K. I see your emphasis is on the state guards, but aren't they called the "National" Guard? The purpose wasn't to debate the state guard's responsibility vs the National military (Navy, Marines, Air Force, Army).
    Maybe the state guards should be used only for state emergencies like natural disasters, invasion at the state border (but then border states should be able to deploy them at the state border with Mexico or Canada if the state feels they are needed).

    The purpose was to emphasize that the Government (Fed, or whatever) has the responsibility to defend, not the responsibility to fund worthy cancer research, or other things that are nice to do, but able to be done by others.


    Oh, and I'm supposed to be unamerican by "regurgitating" (loaded word there, assumes it is regurgitation and not valid thought) a sensible warning? You know what I fear more than the terrorists, the supposedly sensible people over here who minimize the danger they do indeed pose.

    It's like when somebody from a "safe " neighborhood where they do not lock their doors moves into a less-safe area. They have to be re-trained to lock those doors, or their house will be entered, and their kids/wife/etc. could wind up dead or abused.

    Well, guess what, those "bad guys" have moved in across the street (there goes the neighborhood). They were in our airports, our grocery stores, and our flying schools. They blended in with the sole purpose of taking many of us out. This isn't "fear" but reality. To not be vigilant is what seems naiveté.

    Interesting that Korea and Vietnam were mentioned, two wars where we did not win and impose unconditional surrender on the vanquished. That really worked out well, didn't it. N.Korea threatens it's neighbors and us with nukes, and V.Nam falls to the North as well. Do you actually want us to cut and run, and leave the Iraqi's like we did the S. Vietnamese... forcing to fend for themselves before they were ready. Leaving them to die or be taken over?

    How do you tell the families of those who died in V.M. "Thank's for your loved one's sacrifice, but we bailed out and let the commies take over anyway, so they died for no lasting reason, sorry about that"??
    I suppose you could as easily tell the families of those who died in Iraq the same thing... "Tough luck that... so sorry, maybe the NEXT time we ask our soldiers to die we'll actually let them win a victory worth fighting for, or maybe the time after that. But hey, we have a nice spot in Arlington National Cemetery for your kid, it's pretty there".

    I think it should be harder to go to war, but even harder to bail out.
    If we ask them to die, we better make sure their sacrifice means something. Support them with whatever is needed 'til the job is done. Congress should not have the option of cutting them off. If cancer research, federal highways, nice national educational initiatives, etc. have to be put on the back burner, so be it.


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    Today, 11:44 AM #35 cellmatrix vbmenu_register("postmenu_1346969", true);
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by duanedude1
    What if the failure to spend the 500 billion in Iraq meant that the US ceased to exist, and the new islamofascists who would take over

    Half a trillion in Iraq saved us from the islamofascist takeover?


    It remains to be seen, but not doing so could assure our defeat and death. There is no guarantee we will survive the next 5 minutes, but there is a guarantee that if you are not vigilant against enemies that want you dead, they will kill you, "and your little dog too" (and your spouse, kids, grandmother, anyone and everyone in the "Great Satan").

    Such people that cannot and will not be reasoned with, who want you DEAD, need to be stopped, even if it means doing what is fatal to them. Stop them, or they will stop you. They have already proven they'll do anything to make you dead, are you prepared to do anything to stay alive?


    And someone said it was boring around here with nobody to argue with?
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  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1 View Post
    And someone said it was boring around here with nobody to argue with?
    lively discussions are one thing, paranoid rants about how we are on the brink of being taken over by islamofascists in the next 5 minutes are another. Its impossible to carry on a conversation against such a background, only a shouting match.

    I volunteered for military service and served my country for three years of active duty in the 7th Infantry Division some time ago. For the last ten years I have been a physician at a VA hospital, and still am, and I treat the wounded who come back from Iraq, Vietnam, World War II, Korea. These are my friends and colleagues as well as my patients. They are my fellow vets, whom I share a deep and respectful comradery. These experiences have given me a perspective about the role of our military which has served me well much of my life.

    Eisenhower, one of our greatest generals who understand war and the role of the military better than any of us, gave us this advice, which I always remember and which I hope more people can at least try to reflect on because it is very insightful:

    "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."
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       #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1 View Post
    The "Bad guys" would be all those who want us dead.
    Al-Q, "insurgents", those who plant the IED's and use women and kids to blow up soldiers & civilians... etc.
    [And other irrational stuff]
    You should get a job in stand-up!

    Al-Q was never in Iraq prior to the invasion. But you knew that, didn't you?

    And most Iraqis only "want us dead" (if they do, the polls I've seen just say they want us to go somewhere else) because we've already killed, or caused to be killed by the invasion and occupation, several hundred thousand Iraqis. As to "using women and kids" how exactly, if they don't actually believe in their cause? As many rational Americans who know their history (ask around!) will tell you, freedom is a powerful motivator.

    But you knew that too, didn't you. You're just trolling.

    No-one could be that stupid, surely?
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    No-one could be that stupid, surely?
    Eh hem....



    Sad to admit to but....we reelected him now didn't we?
  20. #40  
    Since we're in a quoting mood:

    "War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --- John Stuart Mill

    In WW2 we lost American lives at a rate of close to 400 per day. Although Japan and Germany posed no immediate threat to our land (i.e., they weren't parachuting into our country a la "Red Dawn"), our Greatest Generation recognized the grave threat they both posed and our men and many women died on foreign soil to preserve the freedom and save the lives of countless people, in America and abroad.

    So here we are again. A new enemy, mostly faceless (or wearing hoods or masks), and apparently far more deadly in that they have no compassion for their victims; men, women, and children alike are fair game. Hitler and the Nazi regime were a great evil, but identifiable --- they wore uniforms and marched under a national flag, likewise Japan. Now, we face an enemy of idiology who wear no uniforms, march under the nebulous flag of radical Islam, and will use any means available to destroy all those who will not embrace their faith. They live in many lands and even live among us. Once again we have taken up arms and fight the enemy on foreign soil that would destroy us.

    If killing Al Q and insurgents (radical Islam) in Iraq and Afghanistan (and anywhere else we can find them) is not protecting us, then I invite the critics to offer a better solution. So far, I've heard none. I've only heard criticism, protest, unashamed accusation that our general in charge is a traitor (how ironic), and not a single breath spent on alternative solutions. The true mindless repetition is found in the cry to "bring the troops home!" before they have finished the job.

    How long will the job take? What if it takes years? Five more years? Ten? Twenty? Is our attention span so short and our lack of courage and heart so complete that we will throw in the towel and bury our heads in the sand until the wolves are at the door? The wolves slipped through the door on 9/11 and are anxious for the door to slip open wider.

    What if we decided to bring the troops home without completing the job fighting Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan? I mean, 400 deaths PER DAY is a hefty price, especially when not a single enemy soldier's boot set foot on our mainland. Or how about our "liberal" Revolutionaries? What if they threw in the towel and called the boys home because there were just too many Brits, too many of our boys were dying, and it just wasn't worth the price?

    Maybe there is no good solution. War is never desirable, but sometimes it is necessary. If we're not willing to do the hard thing, then we SHOULD bring the troops home, open our borders wide, and ask our government to provide every household with prayer mats so we can kneel and pray to Mecca five times a day. If we do nothing, this vision of our future is not nutty, but likely.
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