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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    American weirdos, eh? Tell me, Peter, does the German judge`s quotation of sharia within a German courthouse make you laugh as well? Did you chuckle as the judge told the woman she should have known what she was getting into and that she should have basically just taken her due punishment?

    The real oddballs are those who seem to believe there are absolutely no problems to speak of and that all is well with the world. THAT is what makes me laugh, Peter.
    No, that makes me angry. And there's a problem there that needs (needed) to be solved, but to go from that to saying that Sharia law will overtake European law is, frankly, stupid. And stupidity makes me laugh.

    It is common for muslims to practice sharia, or a form of it, within their own community - but it doesn't override the law of the land and it has many precedents. The most obvious precedent for this would be Jewish communities having their own courts, that's been happening in Britain for centuries yet Jewish law hasn't overtaken British law. For religious matters there's absolutely no problem in a religion having a court. That doesn't mean that when religious and secular laws conflict, as in marriage, the secular law doesn't come first. Secular laws quite often have nothing to say on matters which are important to people of a paricular faith.
    Animo et Fide
  2. tirk's Avatar
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    #62  
    Can we just agree that ALL religion is stupid?
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  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Can we just agree that ALL religion is stupid?
    Hey, believing in invisible all powerful beings is pretty weird. The only reason its not an illness is because its culturally appropriate.

    Surur
  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    what were the husband and father convicted of? The threat?
    The "forced" husband is not allowed to re-enter Switzerland for five years, the father for 15 years. This was based on the threats of father and husband of killing the daughter/wife due to Sharia requirements. The husband had a record of violent crime in his home country Turkey, the threats were found serious and credible. Seriously threatening or planning to kill somebody can be a crime, too.

    I guess you can see it as a preemptive strike against Sharia law being applied - or rather against our law being violated. It is probably quite a tough decision, but also a strong signal: don't threaten to kill your daughter, or you will have to leave the country. Of course this only works for people who are not Swiss nationals. The hurdles for getting Swiss citizenship are rather high, too high or based on the wrong criteria in many cases in my view, but sometimes this has its advantages.
    Last edited by clulup; 08/22/2007 at 04:25 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  5. #65  
    We all have the right to decide whom we allow into our homes. (I for example, try to never permit the stench of humans to darken my doors. Disgusting creatures...)

    Immigration is privledge granted by a host to a guest. Nations ought not be obliged to accept every economic emmigrant simply because they arrive seeking better work opportunities.

    Countries have the right to "discriminate" -- to choose from amongst those who want to become guests and potentially equal citizens, those who are most compatible with their societies.

    There should be no shame at employing language and cultural criteria to ensure that the guests admitted are the most likely to be comfortable in their new home, and be able to get along with their hosts.

    If Europeans should, for example, decide to screen potential entry applicants much more thoroughly from certain regions or religions, I would not have a problem with that.
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/22/2007 at 12:29 PM.
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    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Can we just agree that ALL religion is stupid?
    Though some are more stupid than others....

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  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    There should be no shame at employing language and cultural criteria to ensure that the guests admitted are the most likely to be comfortable in their new home, and be able to get along with their hosts.

    If Europeans should, for example, decide to screen potential entry applicants much more thoroughly from certain regions or religions, I would not have a problem with that.
    I agree that immigration is a privilege, and as long as the process is not inhumane, e.g. not allowing wives to join husbands or children to join parents, I do not have a problem with screening for language and employability.

    I do however have a problem with screening people by cultural criteria. What criteria would one use, in a very diverse culture like UK. Would it be OK to be a hoodie or a toff? Or would it be all about being a middle-class suburbian.

    Surur
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I agree that immigration is a privilege, and as long as the process is not inhumane, e.g. not allowing wives to join husbands or children to join parents, I do not have a problem with screening for language and employability.

    I do however have a problem with screening people by cultural criteria. What criteria would one use, in a very diverse culture like UK. Would it be OK to be a hoodie or a toff? Or would it be all about being a middle-class suburbian.

    Surur
    I would begin by applying what is what I understand to be the Dutch screen -- an initial attempt to weed out those who are likely to be uncomfortable in a tolerant open society. (irony acknowledged).

    Those who would be offended by openly unorthodox life styles, women's sexuality, or provocative, even defamatory discussions of Christ, Allah, and Bozo the Clown.

    From my POV, prospective immigrants have no "rights" -- they are applicants to my club whom I can use any criteria to decide on for admittance or not.

    This is because once they get admitted and become a club member, the rights they get are potentially exceptionally powerful.
    Last edited by BARYE; 08/22/2007 at 01:02 PM.
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  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I would begin by applying what is what I understand to be the Dutch screen -- an initial attempt to weed out those who are likely to be uncomfortable in a tolerant open society. (irony acknowledged).

    Those who would be offended by openly unorthodox life styles, women's sexuality, or provocative, even defamatory discussions of Christ, Allah, and Bozo the Clown.

    From my POV, prospective immigrants have no "rights" -- they are applicants to my club whom I can use any criteria to decide on for admittance or not.

    This is because once they get admitted and become a club member, the rights they get are potentially exceptionally powerful.
    While I do like your criteria Barye, we also need to keep in mind what is in the best interest towards our keeping our country economically strong and competitive for the future. Especially now in this new global economy we must rely more than ever on our technological innovation and discovery.

    In our immigration policies, we used to be able to attract the best of the best to help keep the US at the technological and innovative cutting edge. Unfortunately, we are far less successful during the Bush administration where immigration has become seriously backlogged. According to immigration policy experts, other countries are getting better at recruiting the talented people who are waiting in line in our system.

    We need to adjust our own immigration policies to be able to regain the position we once held in this area. Otherwise, we will continue to experience the reverse brain drain which has been occurring these last few years. The pdf below is long, but informative to those who have an interest in this subject.

    http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Tougher..._08222007.html

    http://www3.law.nyu.edu/journals/law...no1/NYU106.pdf (warning large pdf file)
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    So a muslim is free to beat the ever-loving crap out of a woman now? Cellmatrix, what are your thoughts on that one?.
    I was objecting that you were using the actions of extremists to smear the entire muslim culture. Since you have clarified thats not what you are trying to do, I can accept that. At any rate, I could not agree with you more about the problem of violence towards women. Look at these statistics:

    " In Africa, 6,000 women are genitally mutilated each day. This year, more than 15,000 women will be sold into sexual slavery in China. 200 women in Bangladesh will be horribly disfigured when their spurned husbands or suitors burn them with acid. More than 7,000 women in India will be murdered by their families and in-laws in disputes over dowries."

    From: Broken Bodies, Shattered Minds: Torture and Ill Treatment of Women, Amnesty International, 2001

    http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engACT400012001

    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    I think we should spend more energy upholding our values of our lands rather than bending them or apologizing for those of others.
    In response to that statement, here is what the same source tells us this about our own country:

    "In the US, a woman is raped every 6 minutes; a woman is battered every 15 seconds."

    It just shows that while get on our high horses and criticize others, we also can't ignore our own shortcomings. Certainly we have a lot to improve upon in our own country as well. I feel that unfortunately, evil exists as part of human nature, and it crosses all cultural boundries.
  11.    #71  
    Thank you for elaborating on your position, cell, but high horse? come on. Where in our society is it culturally accepted for a woman to be beaten, raped or worse?

    Sure beatings and killings happen in America but those instances are considered CRIMES. In contrast, in a muslim country, if a woman is beaten or stoned for her "indiscretions" such barbarism is often considered PROPER treatment as punishment from her husband.

    Do you see what I'm getting at?
    There is a BIG difference here.

    Is pointing that out an example of parading around on a high horse?
    Last edited by treobk214; 08/27/2007 at 09:55 AM.
  12.    #72  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown View Post
    No, that makes me angry. And there's a problem there that needs (needed) to be solved, but to go from that to saying that Sharia law will overtake European law is, frankly, stupid. And stupidity makes me laugh.

    It is common for muslims to practice sharia, or a form of it, within their own community - but it doesn't override the law of the land and it has many precedents. The most obvious precedent for this would be Jewish communities having their own courts, that's been happening in Britain for centuries yet Jewish law hasn't overtaken British law. For religious matters there's absolutely no problem in a religion having a court. That doesn't mean that when religious and secular laws conflict, as in marriage, the secular law doesn't come first. Secular laws quite often have nothing to say on matters which are important to people of a paricular faith.


    You know, the point of this thread is to bring attention to the few errant examples like these in hopes that they remain just that... just errant examples.

    If you dont nip a problem like this in the bud, its possible for more and more instances like these to take place over time while you aren`t paying attention, and before you know it, you`ve got some real problems.

    Stupidity to me would be to simply remain quiet and follow the herd as such cases begin to take place and rise in numbers. I guess you could just let these things happen and not make a peep about it, and then wait until there`s a real dilemma going before people suddenly wake up and take notice. THAT would be real stupidity, but it would no longer be such a laughing matter at that point, now, would it, Peter?
  13.    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Can we just agree that ALL religion is stupid?
    Yes, Tirk. Religion is the definition of stupidity. For an idea that is supposed to bring people together "under God" and "with love", religion does more to divide and pit people against each other than anything else.

    That is the legacy of religion. While there are many good virtues within organized faith, it can so easily devolve into a dangerous cult-like following that can slowly but surely, bring out the worst in people.... IN THE NAME OF GOD.

    Its ridiculous. Someday I hope we can evolve beyond the stone ages in this aspect.
    Last edited by treobk214; 08/24/2007 at 07:58 PM.
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