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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    Why does it irk me you ask? Well for one thing it’s not conducive to unity. Unity is the most important ingredient in fostering and preserving a society. (Can you say Iraq?) Not!
    Thats a scary statement. Shades of Hitler? Should people be informing on their relatives who do not share the group think?

    Other reasons to a lessor extent include safety.....cost to the tax payer etc. etc. Can you imagine deciding to live in China and not knowing the language and demanding they accommodate you? They’d laugh you out of the country if they didn’t run you out first.
    Fascism is when the efficiency of the government is more important than the freedom of the people.

    For the record, I don’t have a problem with diversity. I wake up every morning....look in the mirror at my black skin and see just how “diverse” I truly am, and love it, thank you. I kiss my Japanese born wife every morning before leaving for work, were I will meet up with my Hispanic best friend. And I’m far from being a “right-wing agitator”.
    Yes, I cant be a racist because some of my best friends are black...

    I’m just a proud American who wants to see his country stay that way.
    You're the definition of a conservative. Its not about making things better or worse, just keeping things the same, at any cost, no matter that the world is actually moving on.


    Again, it’s not about hating other people. I don’t care what color you are, or what country you came from. Americans come in all colors and nationalities..
    What I have a problem with is others foisting their culture or beliefs on me. or wanting exceptions because of religious beliefs. This goes for the overbearing Christians as well as Muslims. Whatever your religion, keep it personal. And it really doesn’t matter if it’s extreme or mainstream Islam. Keep your personal beliefs to yourself. If you’re Muslim, you can chunk all the rocks you can find at that wall......you can march a million deep in a circle if you want to I don’t care. Just don’t bring it to me. That goes for all the other religions with there endless contradictions. You see the cynic in me views all the major religions like major corporations. Marketing to people to pick and stay with a brand. “Tithe with us,” “the Muslims are going to hell” says Religion x,” make your charitable contribution with us,” “Christians are infidels,” says Religion y. You see, that way they have you branded. They have you, your mind and your tithe for life. Just like Microsoft with Windows. To me organized religion is just an artificial construct designed to control the masses and their money. Just like the government.
    Do you protests as loudly against the actual restrictions in your country due to your Christian beliefs e.g. laws against abortion, gay marriage and stem cell research?

    Surur
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    You paint a very rosy picture. Hemingway would have been proud. But for every idyllic scene you portray I could counter with a dozen other’s not so idyllic. But in order to keep it short I will simply tell you to just turn on the news.
    Besides, that wasn’t even the point of my post. Preserving a nation and it’s culture encompass so much more and is not even about hating on other people, worrying about this ghetto or that barrio or neighborhood. I’m sorry you didn’t get the point of my post, Since you seem to think it was just a rhetorical bomb. (Although I did enjoy your rather artful sentence).
    Why does it irk me you ask? Well for one thing it’s not conducive to unity. Unity is the most important ingredient in fostering and preserving a society. (Can you say Iraq?) Not! Other reasons to a lessor extent include safety.....cost to the tax payer etc. etc. Can you imagine deciding to live in China and not knowing the language and demanding they accommodate you? They’d laugh you out of the country if they didn’t run you out first.
    For the record, I don’t have a problem with diversity. I wake up every morning....look in the mirror at my black skin and see just how “diverse” I truly am, and love it, thank you. I kiss my Japanese born wife every morning before leaving for work, were I will meet up with my Hispanic best friend. And I’m far from being a “right-wing agitator”. I’m just a proud American who wants to see his country stay that way. Again, it’s not about hating other people. I don’t care what color you are, or what country you came from. Americans come in all colors and nationalities..
    What I have a problem with is others foisting their culture or beliefs on me. or wanting exceptions because of religious beliefs. This goes for the overbearing Christians as well as Muslims. Whatever your religion, keep it personal. And it really doesn’t matter if it’s extreme or mainstream Islam. Keep your personal beliefs to yourself. If you’re Muslim, you can chunk all the rocks you can find at that wall......you can march a million deep in a circle if you want to I don’t care. Just don’t bring it to me. That goes for all the other religions with there endless contradictions. You see the cynic in me views all the major religions like major corporations. Marketing to people to pick and stay with a brand. “Tithe with us,” “the Muslims are going to hell” says Religion x,” make your charitable contribution with us,” “Christians are infidels,” says Religion y. You see, that way they have you branded. They have you, your mind and your tithe for life. Just like Microsoft with Windows. To me organized religion is just an artificial construct designed to control the masses and their money. Just like the government.

    Lastly, you are correct when you said “you will find many immigrants that are more hard working than many Americans”. And your point is? What does that prove? I maintain that the reverse is also true. There are exceptions to every rule and in many instances the exceptions swallow the rule to the point of it being a meaningless rule. Sort of like your statement. About the only thing I got out of it was that it sounded like something George Bush would say.

    Thanks for your response and explaining more about your perspective. I will just say there are a lot of people who emigrate to America and put their energies into making what living they can, so their children can do better than they did. I dont want to get into stereotypes, but still this is a very common scenario, one which I see all the time. Maybe these immigrants dont speak good english, but they found a way to make a buck, and they put everything into it just so their kids can have a good education and succeed. Then the kids, driven by their parents to get an education and succeed, actually do go on and become real leaders in our society. I see this going on all the time at the university I work at. I see kids coming out of Chinatown, kids coming out of barrios, kids coming over with their parents on a boat from Vietnam going out and succeeding, doing really well. So their parents dont speak English great or at all, so what? It doesnt make them subversive. They are not detracting from "unity" they are nonetheless contributing to our country in their own way.
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Thanks for your response and explaining more about your perspective. I will just say there are a lot of people who emigrate to America and put their energies into making what living they can, so their children can do better than they did. I dont want to get into stereotypes, but still this is a very common scenario, one which I see all the time. Maybe these immigrants dont speak good english, but they found a way to make a buck, and they put everything into it just so their kids can have a good education and succeed. Then the kids, driven by their parents to get an education and succeed, actually do go on and become real leaders in our society. I see this going on all the time at the university I work at. I see kids coming out of Chinatown, kids coming out of barrios, kids coming over with their parents on a boat from Vietnam going out and succeeding, doing really well. So their parents dont speak English great or at all, so what? It doesnt make them subversive. They are not detracting from "unity" they are nonetheless contributing to our country in their own way.
    You make a valid point. And for those who do, as some would say, pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and learn to embrace America, I salute them.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Thats a scary statement. Shades of Hitler? Should people be informing on their relatives who do not share the group think?



    Fascism is when the efficiency of the government is more important than the freedom of the people.



    Yes, I cant be a racist because some of my best friends are black...



    You're the definition of a conservative. Its not about making things better or worse, just keeping things the same, at any cost, no matter that the world is actually moving on.




    Do you protests as loudly against the actual restrictions in your country due to your Christian beliefs e.g. laws against abortion, gay marriage and stem cell research?

    Surur
    My response to your points are:

    1. Huh? I fail to see what Hitler or group think has to do with anything.

    2. Your definition of fascism is not quite right. According to my ENGLISH dictionary, fascism is defined as:A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

    Now why do I have to be labeled as being for this abhorrent system, just because I want to make sure my tax dollars are being spent wisely? If your significant other was to go out and spend $20,000 on a new living room would you call her a fascist? Doesnít ďfitĒ does it?

    3. Not worthy of a response

    4. Thatís funny cause in previous elections I have voted democratic. Iím about as conservative as **** Cheney is liberal. You obviously donít have a clue about the American body politic and all of itís complexities. On some issues Iím conservative, on other issues Iím much more liberal. It depends on the issue. I view issues like I view people.... individually.

    5. If you would re-read the part that you quoted, you will see that I am quite secular. I view all religions with suspicion.
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    My response to your points are:

    1. Huh? I fail to see what Hitler or group think has to do with anything.

    2. Your definition of fascism is not quite right. According to my ENGLISH dictionary, fascism is defined as:A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

    Now why do I have to be labeled as being for this abhorrent system, just because I want to make sure my tax dollars are being spent wisely? If your significant other was to go out and spend $20,000 on a new living room would you call her a fascist? Doesnít ďfitĒ does it?

    3. Not worthy of a response

    4. Thatís funny cause in previous elections I have voted democratic. Iím about as conservative as **** Cheney is liberal. You obviously donít have a clue about the American body politic and all of itís complexities. On some issues Iím conservative, on other issues Iím much more liberal. It depends on the issue. I view issues like I view people.... individually.

    5. If you would re-read the part that you quoted, you will see that I am quite secular. I view all religions with suspicion.
    You are blindly failing to see how all of the above apply to you. Thats the problem.

    Surur
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Who is this guy in the video anyway? His description of Europe and the alleged influence of Islam and Sharia law is such a gross misrepresentation that it is laughable.

    As you may know, e.g. in France it is even forbidden to wear a headscarf in public schools, that tells you how strict separation of religion and state is. Compare that to the US, where some religious weirdos are allowed to dictate which religious dogmas are to be taught in biology classes of public schools. The US are in far greater danger of being taken over by religious fundamentalists with a medieval mindset than Europe by proponents of Sharia law.
    American weirdos who claim that Islam is about to over-run Europe always make me laugh. As do Americans who claim that all Europeans have a particular set of political views - or are in some way spineless . Funny that this never seems to be happening in any bit of Europe I've ever visited.
    Animo et Fide
  7.    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    The hate-mongering you are perpetuating is the idea that sharia law would replace the current law system in the first place. Where is the basis of this bizarre belief? Its just a straw man meant to rile people up.

    In UK, people are much more concerned by the ACTUAL invasion of EU laws passed by outside unelected bodies than the writing into law of Leviticus.

    In fact, when it comes to religions lobbying to get laws enacted, I would think the large puritanical lobby in the US would be miles ahead. Its funny that the chap used homophobia as an example of Islamic intolerance, when Gay marriage was such an issue in America, purely on religious grounds. In fact I don't recall seeing too many muslims trying to change the laws on abortion or stem cell research. Try removing that log from your own eye before trying to reverse the imaginary invasion of sharia law in Europe.

    Surur

    Hate-monguering? Folks, that is priceless. When a fundamentalist religion is world renown for it utter intolerance of anyone outside of its belief system? please. With terror cells operating from within our own countries or extremists behind most of the world`s violence today whether it be beheadings, stonings, riots, or terrorism, I`d hardly say I am the one coming from a position of hatred, surur, and cellmatrix.

    Look, I have no problems with muslims coming to our countries as long as they show respect for us and a desire to better themselves peacefully, according to our established laws. I take issue with these incidents where we are shown this is NOT the case, and rather than apologize for them, cellmatrix, I think we should spend more energy upholding our values of our lands rather than bending them or apologizing for those of others.

    My position is simply a staunch opposition to the integration of any of their irrationally severe values with our culture, legal systems or government policies - European OR American. The real hate-monguering is being carried out by the fundamentalists here, not by individuals like me. Cases in point include the recent terrorist plots, bombings in London, Spain and Australia.


    It is a fact that muslim communities practice Sharia, or strict Islamic law within Britain itself. Polygamy is legalized for muslim men there now, which exemplifies the exploitation of women. German judges are quoting sharia law during court proceedings now.

    Is this "imaginary"? Why should Britain, America or any other nation feel obligated to modify centuries-old laws and customs to accommodate a foreign islamic culture when no other religion gets such privileges?

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...474629,00.html

    "Put plainly, the judge argued that a woman who marries a Muslim should know what she's getting herself into." In Germany, no less."


    This is what I am talking about. Enough with the sanctimoniousness about hatred here. Please. The case mentioned above and others like it is totally unacceptable. So a muslim is free to beat the ever-loving crap out of a woman now? Cellmatrix, what are your thoughts on that one? Rather than "pouting", am I supposed to joyfully embrace a culture like this?

    Sorry. Harsh religious beliefs (OF ANY KIND)have absolutely no place in the legal systems or cultures of any other countries outside of their own. Period. If such people want to uphold such orthodox practices, then they should stay in the countries where religous rule of law is accepted. If they want to come to our country, adapt to our way of life. It`s not the other way around. That`s not hate-monguering, that is simply the desire to preserve OUR original heritage, particularly when OUR culture is met with such violence in THEIR countries!

    Surur, the comment about removing the log from the eye is nonsense. Maybe you consider removing the blinders from yours.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Hate-monguering? Folks, that is priceless. When a fundamentalist religion is world renown for it utter intolerance of anyone outside of its belief system? please. With terror cells operating from within our own countries or extremists behind most of the world`s violence today whether it be beheadings, stonings, riots, or terrorism, I`d hardly say I am the one coming from a position of hatred, surur, and cellmatrix.

    Look, I have no problems with muslims coming to our countries as long as they show respect for us and a desire to better themselves peacefully, according to our established laws. I take issue with these incidents where we are shown this is NOT the case, and rather than apologize for them, cellmatrix, I think we should spend more energy upholding our values of our lands rather than bending them or apologizing for those of others.

    My position is simply a staunch opposition to the integration of any of their irrationally severe values with our culture, legal systems or government policies - European OR American. The real hate-monguering is being carried out by the fundamentalists here, not by individuals like me. Cases in point include the recent terrorist plots, bombings in London, Spain and Australia.


    It is a fact that muslim communities practice Sharia, or strict Islamic law within Britain itself. Polygamy is legalized for muslim men there now, which exemplifies the exploitation of women. German judges are quoting sharia law during court proceedings now.

    Is this "imaginary"? Why should Britain, America or any other nation feel obligated to modify centuries-old laws and customs to accommodate a foreign islamic culture when no other religion gets such privileges?

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...474629,00.html

    "Put plainly, the judge argued that a woman who marries a Muslim should know what she's getting herself into." In Germany, no less."


    This is what I am talking about. Enough with the sanctimoniousness about hatred here. Please. The case mentioned above and others like it is totally unacceptable. So a muslim is free to beat the ever-loving crap out of a woman now? Cellmatrix, what are your thoughts on that one? Rather than "pouting", am I supposed to joyfully embrace a culture like this?

    Sorry. Harsh religious beliefs (OF ANY KIND)have absolutely no place in the legal systems or cultures of any other countries outside of their own. Period. If such people want to uphold such orthodox practices, then they should stay in the countries where religous rule of law is accepted. If they want to come to our country, adapt to our way of life. It`s not the other way around. That`s not hate-monguering, that is simply the desire to preserve OUR original heritage, particularly when OUR culture is met with such violence in THEIR countries!

    Surur, the comment about removing the log from the eye is nonsense. Maybe you consider removing the blinders from yours.
    Who exactly are you preaching to here? Moslem's dont make the law in Europe. If you have a problem, take it up with the judges.

    Surur
  9.    #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I'll give you a quick summary then. He is basically complaining special exceptions are being made most Islamic law and its adherents, such as polygamy. He then builds a flimsy case for how sharia law will replace European law and apply to everyone, culminating in how your daughter will be stoned for being raped in Europe. He then dismisses the European heritage of similar acts, claiming they are now civilized. He claims politicians are pandering to Muslims for votes, and basically says America is the bastion of separating religion from law, ignoring things such as gay marriage and the death penalty in USA. He complains of anti-Islamic protests being banned, says islamophobia is a badge of honor. He reminds us that at current birthrates France will soon be >50% Muslim in 50 years.

    In short, he clearly demonstrates that since IQ is a bell-shaped curve, logic demands some people, usually the biggest loudmouths, fall in the trailing end of the curve.

    Surur
    Its always amusing how some people repeatedly try to posture themselves as intellectually superior to all. This is typically the card these pseudointellectuals resort to whenever someone else takes up a position which they disagree with. Its always an attack on the logic or the intelligence of the person with the opposing viewpoint.

    Its ironic how you talk about the biggest loudmouths at the trailing end of the curve, surur. Your opinions as well as your tendencies to try to belittle others in this forum are never in short supply. Take a look in the mirror, jack.
    Last edited by treobk214; 08/21/2007 at 01:19 PM.
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Who exactly are you preaching to here? Moslem's dont make the law in Europe. If you have a problem, take it up with the judges.

    Surur
    Were YOU not preaching to me about the ridiculous log in the eye?
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    Were YOU not preaching to me about the ridiculous log in the eye?
    You started the thread. Maybe you should examine your motivations.

    Surur
    Last edited by surur; 08/21/2007 at 01:36 PM.
  12. #52  
    As do Americans who claim that all Europeans have a particular set of political views
    Personally, I find this to work both ways. I think neither set of views is as monolithic as its detractors might like to think.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13.    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    You started the thread. Maybe you should examine your motivations.

    Surur
    I stand by my motivations in this thread, reverend. YOU started the insults, the belittling and the ridicule, your typical flame baiting - as usual. Maybe YOU should examine yours.
    Last edited by treobk214; 08/21/2007 at 01:57 PM.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    I stand by my motivations in this thread, reverend. YOU started the insults, the belittling and the ridicule, your typical flame baiting - as usual. Maybe YOU should examine yours.
    I was referring to the comedian, who is clearly a fool. But if the shoe fits...

    Surur
  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterBrown View Post
    American weirdos who claim that Islam is about to over-run Europe always make me laugh. As do Americans who claim that all Europeans have a particular set of political views - or are in some way spineless . Funny that this never seems to be happening in any bit of Europe I've ever visited.
    American weirdos, eh? Tell me, Peter, does the German judge`s quotation of sharia within a German courthouse make you laugh as well? Did you chuckle as the judge told the woman she should have known what she was getting into and that she should have basically just taken her due punishment?

    The real oddballs are those who seem to believe there are absolutely no problems to speak of and that all is well with the world. THAT is what makes me laugh, Peter.
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    The real oddballs are those who seem to believe there are absolutely no problems to speak of and that all is well with the world. THAT is what makes me laugh, Peter.
    Has it occurred to you that rulings against polygamy are actually religion-based? It has to these people.

    UTAH POLYGAMIST INVOKES LAWRENCE

    [From the Dept. of You Knew This Would Happen]

    A lawyer for a Utah man with five wives argued Monday that his bigamy convictions should be thrown out following a Supreme Court decision decriminalizing gay sex.

    The nation's high court in June struck down a Texas sodomy law, ruling that what gay men and women do in the privacy of their homes is no business of government.

    It's no different for polygamists, argued Tom Green's attorney, John Bucher, to the Utah Supreme Court. ...

    Polygamy has an estimated 30,000 practitioners in the West
    http://www.marriagedebate.com/mdblog...og_archive.htm

    Why dont you go fix your own country first.

    Surur
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Has it occurred to you that rulings against polygamy are actually religion-based? It has to these people.


    http://www.marriagedebate.com/mdblog...og_archive.htm

    Why dont you go fix your own country first.

    Surur

    Polygamy is the exploitation of women, first and foremost. That is the problem most have with it, whether it occurs in America or anywhere else.

    Why dont you go fix the pompous attitude?
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    It is a fact that muslim communities practice Sharia, or strict Islamic law within Britain itself. Polygamy is legalized for muslim men there now, which exemplifies the exploitation of women. German judges are quoting sharia law during court proceedings now.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/...474629,00.html
    You grossly exaggerate the "problem" here. True, an incompetent German judge quoted the Koran or the Sharia in a German court - which quickly led to an outcry and her removal from the job. Polygamy is in no way legal in Britain, contrary to what you claim.

    Another question is the fact that polygamy is legal in some countries (as it was in parts of the US not so long ago), and that polygamous people are not prosecuted for that once they move to Europe (or the US). Look at the real scope of the problem:
    What the policy statement boiled down to was this: In certain cases Muslim men from countries where polygamy is legal -- like Morocco, Algeria and Saudi Arabia -- could add a second wife to their government health insurance policies without having to pay an additional premium.

    Such excesses are rare today. Judges are increasingly accepting the responsibility that legal expert and Islam scholar Mathias Rohe demands of them: to use the law "to signal to a society what is allowed and what is not."

    For example, in 2005 a DŁsseldorf judge ordered that a Muslim boy could be required to attend school swimming sessions together with girls. In his grounds, the judge argued that in Germany Muslims are "confronted with more liberal values, which they must be able to handle. The same applies to required swimming instruction."
    In Switzerland, a year or so ago, a Muslim woman was brought back to her home country Turkey and forced to marry somebody who her father had selected for her. Then the "couple" and the father returned to Switzerland in order to continue living here. When the woman wanted to leave the man, her father and her husband threatened to kill her. In order to guarantee the security of the woman during the investigation, both father and husband were arrested and sent back to their home country within a day. As far as I know, they were later convicted and have to stay out. Harsh, but a good way of dealing with such issues, and a clear signal to the limits of what is allowed here. Certainly not a sign of accepting Sharia law, is it?

    Should Muslim girls be forced to join swimming lessons in school? I think yes, but it is not a simple question. Should Muslims be allowed to build minarets and mosques? I think certainly yes, even if some right wing weirdos here disagree and call for a referendum.

    It is not always easy to find good answers, it is a question of religious freedom and the limits of religious freedom. But fear not. Sharia law plays no role in European jurisdiction, and Europe will continue to be a secular, liberal place.
    ďReality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.Ē (Philip K. ****)
  19. #59  
    what were the husband and father convicted of? The threat?
    Iago

    "Good name in man and woman, dear my lord, Is the immediate jewel of their souls: Who steals my purse steals trash . . . But he that filches from me my good name Robs me of that which not enriches him
    And makes me poor indeed."


    Criminal: A person with predatory instincts who has not sufficient capital to form a corporation.
    - Howard Scott
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Personally, I find this to work both ways. I think neither set of views is as monolithic as its detractors might like to think.
    Absolutely, I would expect you to find European idiots who tar all Americans with the same brush funny and/or pathetic, I certainly do.
    Animo et Fide
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