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  1. #121  
    To your point, the Republicans and we know that history. The Democrats though promised us openness, transparency, et cetera. You cannot even come close to stating that Nancy and Harry have kept that end of the bargain. Heck, on the energy crisis she adjourned rather than let the Republicans say anything and then they come back with a proposal to allow drilling at 50+ miles - problem is, and we are sure you are aware of this, industry experts state that 80% of the oil reserves are closers than 50 miles, a fact that has long been stated.

    I am tired of the games played by both sides. The left has no new players, the right has 1 new player and the new player is the only change in view.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gorelick - light reading.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Raines - more light reading.

    These guys associated with Fannie & Freddie, these guys with ties to corruption much worse than Enron (which was a hot topic here, everyone ready to lynch the bad guys who cooked up $500 million in theft compared to $500 billion with the current scandal).
    Obama tied in with them via contributions (as McCain has a few here and there) and well, take the time to read. The connection is very visible.

    I also agree that the Bush administration messed up, but you owe it to yourself to acknowledge that Obama has ties to it also.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    To your point, the Republicans and we know that history. The Democrats though promised us openness, transparency, et cetera. You cannot even come close to stating that Nancy and Harry have kept that end of the bargain. Heck, on the energy crisis she adjourned rather than let the Republicans say anything and then they come back with a proposal to allow drilling at 50+ miles - problem is, and we are sure you are aware of this, industry experts state that 80% of the oil reserves are closers than 50 miles, a fact that has long been stated.

    I am tired of the games played by both sides. The left has no new players, the right has 1 new player and the new player is the only change in view.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Gorelick - light reading.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Raines - more light reading.

    These guys associated with Fannie & Freddie, these guys with ties to corruption much worse than Enron (which was a hot topic here, everyone ready to lynch the bad guys who cooked up $500 million in theft compared to $500 billion with the current scandal).
    Obama tied in with them via contributions (as McCain has a few here and there) and well, take the time to read. The connection is very visible.

    I also agree that the Bush administration messed up, but you owe it to yourself to acknowledge that Obama has ties to it also.
    Thanks, I'll certainly read up on it. I suspect we'll differ on the interpretations.

    There is nothing to owe up to on my part. I've already said both parties are to blame - perhaps you missed that part (again). But there was ONE decider and ONE party ruled for 6 out of 8 years. The buck stops there because they were in power. And to try and shift all of the blame to the Dems is wrong.

    Once again, I've been a vocal critic of Nancy and Harry for some time. Neither one of them could lead a honey bee to nectar in a field of daisies - they are not leaders and they are too polarizing. If one of the houses fell to the GOP, that would be fine with me - some balance in our government is always a good thing.
  3. #123  
    Yes, Nancy and Harry are not good for this country and I can say that as a former Democrat as easily as I can say that as a current Republican. I listen to them both talk and come away with the impression that anyone else would be better than those 2. Compromise is not within their thoughts and with our system it is important.
  4.    #124  
    there are reports that Treasury is going to propose a wholesale buyout of all the bad mortgage debt held by the major banks and investment houses (the ones still left, at least).

    This would in effect take the form of the RTC bailout of the late 80's, where bad bank debt was nationalized. Cramer has been the main advocate of this strategy (and perhaps its primary author), for some time.

    Will it work ??

    Its certainly a better idea than everything done until now. From the beginning, junior and his appointed henchmen have been less than grudging in doing never enough to solve the crisis -- but instead only doing at most that which would be perceived as "addressing" it.

    From the beginning the problem from junior's perspective, was largely PRPRPR.

    The "economy was sound", business is good, people have jobs -- "if americans weren't such whiners, if they'd stop complaining"...etc etc.

    Had they the guile, intelligence, and mental agility to jetison their precast ideological formulations and actually manned up to the problem last summer (when I began writing about it) -- there would not have been this catastrophic international economic meltdown.

    Every solution they've offered (even this one) has been a top down, water from above, save the leaves plan.

    As I wrote at the time, their ostensible program to actually assist homeowners -- the HOPE program -- was a phoney fraud meant to bluff for time and do little for people in trouble -- or as its now retrospectively clear, the big institutions that held their debt.

    Had my ideas been adopted last year: re-marking home owner's mortgages down to their market value -- everyone would have been saved, and the system would have been revived.

    By attempting instead at all points to do de minimis, by having instead as their primary goal protecting institutions and the wealthy and not distressed citizens -- they have ended up ironically, massacring everyone.


    Last edited by BARYE; 09/19/2008 at 01:33 AM.
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  5.    #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Your best post ever.
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  6. #126  
    Maybe I should stop paying my mortgage and let the gov pay it off for me. I can see it coming already.
  7.    #127  
    after junior and his friends decided to make an example of Lehman and allowed it to become bankrupt, lots of corporations and rich folk lost a ton of money.

    Some of it is tied up in uninsured overseas accounts, some in complicated versions of "bonds" and other monetary paper -- none of which I can even pretend to understand.

    But the effect of this stack of cash becoming at least frozen -- and very possibly lost -- has been dramatic.

    Round the world there has been for the last couple of weeks, a vast silent run on the banks.

    Not the little folks with under $100,000 who are insured -- but the filthy rich.

    They are quietly transferring billions and billions of their unhard won cash into t-bills and such -- and out of any but the most well capitalized banks (of which there are really only 4 left).

    This panic really began with the collapse of Indymac -- a big primarily west coast bank that went under a few weeks ago. Those with deposits greater than $100,000 were not fully protected by the FDIC.

    The effect of this gigantic run on the banks has been a sucking out from nearly every american bank of their core capital. As a result they have stopped lending, and many may join Indymac in becoming insolvent.

    Jim Cramer -- who I respect though I often disagree with -- advocates that the FDIC raise the ceiling on insured deposits to 2+ million dollars (from $100,000.)

    His argument is that without it, the national credit and banking system will inexorably bleed to death -- leading to another great depression.

    I fear he may well be right.

    Behind the bailout plan is junior has belatedly being forced to recognize that had he done nothing, the depression that would have resulted would have reenforced the view that he was the most inept leader since Caligula.

    Because of his history of lies, manipulations, and executive trickery -- junior has no reservoir of trust from which to draw on, in this crisis.

    Obviously the bailout plan is deeply unpopular amongst both left and right. (I spent much of last week listening to many of the progressive left's leaders talk about the upsurge in grassroots fury at the plan.)

    The GOP folks in talk radio land, are similarly outraged -- though even more befuddled and confused. They are collectively dizzied by the socializations proposed by junior -- and the abject failure of what had been bedrock GOP economic theory from Raygun to junior: that wholesale deregulation and tax cuts for the wealthy, inevitably brings prosperity to all.

    This has become such a psychically absorbed precept amongst GOPers, that even as the system they created collapses, they advocate even more tax cuts for the rich as their solution.

    That all this is happening on the eve of a national election only adds to difficulty of creating even an interim solution.

    Having been demagogued to defeat by Repugs over pledges of allegiance, flag burning, gays marrying, and Iraq -- the Dems will understandably insist that any deal include both sides.

    I fear that both the current dire situation, the reasons we've come to be here, and any possible solution to it -- are too too complicated for the average voter. The average GOP politician understands the "populist" advantage of pretending to defend the "people" against Wall Street.

    The period between administrations is always an awkward one.

    The outgoing group (however good or bad they may have been), is constrained by much diminished authority -- and the sense that they are just temporary place holders looking for their next job.

    Even assuming that Obama wins (not a certainty), and that he appoints a decent crew to work on reviving the economy -- we're still talking about another 6 months before they get in place and up and running.

    Potentially it could be a very bad year ahead.
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/29/2008 at 03:58 AM.
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  8. #128  
    How can you expect to see substantive change when the very people behind him are the ones that caused this? Do you really believe that government is the answer to all things? Insisting the Republicans be involved in a decision when the Democrats control it all, well that means that the Democrats want to spread the dirt. Really shows how much faith they truly have.
  9.    #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    How can you expect to see substantive change when the very people behind him are the ones that caused this? Do you really believe that government is the answer to all things? Insisting the Republicans be involved in a decision when the Democrats control it all, well that means that the Democrats want to spread the dirt. Really shows how much faith they truly have.
    Ben -- are not the people behind this: junior, Bernake, Cox, and Paulson ??

    Which party has created the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression ??

    Whose business friendly ideas were going to generate an unbelievable level of new american prosperity ??

    Which Presidential candidate's team is lead by a lobbyist that worked on behalf of your hated Fannie Mae ??

    Which part of it are you saying the Dems are responsible for ??
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  10. #130  
    Business friendly? yes, but look at whose business it was that made it big - look at those people who made it big - look at who those people that made it big are working for. Is it the right or the left - does the name Obama mean anything to you? Look closely. Both sides are really dirty here - something you have mumbled, but never said out loud. In addition, you have never, ever mumbled about Obama's relationship with those people from F&F who are top advisers to his campaign and their part in it, nor the amount of money they made in it.

    You also fail to remember and mention that the Democrat party has blocked any and all attempts to correct the situation. You also fail to remember and mention the rolls played by Barney and similar people.

    Both sides are dirty, but really now, which side is dirtier? You also forget to remember and mention what Bill Clinton said about his party's actions back when he was president.
  11. #131  
    Lobbyist - that was retracted or rather corrected.
  12. #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    You also fail to remember and mention that the Democrat party has blocked any and all attempts to correct the situation.
    Another lie. Both parties blocked it.

    You also fail to remember and mention the rolls played by Barney and similar people.
    That is a lie. Barney put forth his own bill.

    Both sides are dirty, but really now, which side is dirtier?
    That would be the Republiscum by a long shot. They squandered our surpluses. They gambled away our treasure (pun intended for the resident friend of Indian gaming, John McSame). They deregulated everything in sight.

    Sure, both sides are dirty but only one side is covered head-to-toe in mud these last 8 years - the ones that were in charge - THE REPUBLICANS.

    You also forget to remember and mention what Bill Clinton said about his party's actions back when he was president.
    Oh Ben, what would you do without Clinton to blame things on or bring up whenever you are losing an argument?
  13.    #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    ...
    Obviously the bailout plan is deeply unpopular amongst both left and right. (I spent much of last week listening to many of the progressive left's leaders talk about the upsurge in grassroots fury at the plan.)

    The GOP folks in talk radio land, are similarly outraged -- though even more befuddled and confused. They are collectively dizzied by the socializations proposed by junior -- and the abject failure of what had been bedrock GOP economic theory from Raygun to junior: that wholesale deregulation and tax cuts for the wealthy, inevitably brings prosperity to all.

    This has become such a psychically absorbed precept amongst GOPers, that even as the system they created collapses, they advocate even more tax cuts for the rich as their solution.

    That all this is happening on the eve of a national election only adds to difficulty of creating even an interim solution.

    Having been demagogued to defeat by Repugs over pledges of allegiance, flag burning, gays marrying, and Iraq -- the Dems will understandably insist that any deal include both sides.

    I fear that both the current dire situation, the reasons we've come to be here, and any possible solution to it -- are too too complicated for the average voter. The average GOP politician understands the "populist" advantage of pretending to defend the "people" against Wall Street...

    Potentially it could be a very bad year ahead.
    As I've feared, the GOP has been unable to resist their instinct to demagogue in their phoney pose as "populists"

    The market falls 500+ points...
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  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    As I've feared, the GOP has been unable to resist their instinct to demagogue in their phoney pose as "populists"

    The market falls 500+ points...
    Well I'm upset with the utter lack of leadership from both sides of the isle. Bush failed the nation with his "look the other way" cowboy economics and foreign policy. Pelosi has failed to rally the necessary votes in a Democrat controlled House! I believe over 90 Dems voted NO. She is so friggin' useless...I hope she loses her seat as House Speaker whether Obama wins or loses.

    The Presidential candidates are failing to take a real stance and leadership position on the matter. Both gave tepid support for the bill - neither attempted to rally their troops.

    If the year were 1808 vs. 2008 the White House would be on fire and the mobs would be chasing all of the bums out of town.
  15.    #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well I'm upset with the utter lack of leadership from both sides of the isle. Bush failed the nation with his "look the other way" cowboy economics and foreign policy. Pelosi has failed to rally the necessary votes in a Democrat controlled House! I believe over 90 Dems voted NO. She is so friggin' useless...I hope she loses her seat as House Speaker whether Obama wins or loses.

    The Presidential candidates are failing to take a real stance and leadership position on the matter. Both gave tepid support for the bill - neither attempted to rally their troops.

    If the year were 1808 vs. 2008 the White House would be on fire and the mobs would be chasing all of the bums out of town.
    In her defense, the Dems were in effect promised that there would be between 85-100 Repug votes. Enough to immunize Dems from Repug demagoguing.

    The Dems were not willing to be tagged with owning a Bill that was created by Repugs to remedy a crisis created by Repugs.

    junior and McSame were unable to coral enough of their team. My understanding is that the Dem "Nays" would have supported the Bill if there were more Repug votes.

    As to your:

    "If the year were 1808 vs. 2008 the White House would be on fire..."

    I wish the White House had been burned the day they allowed junior and his junta to steal power in their court approved Coup.

    All the nightmares that have encompassed us since, have flowed down from that moment.

    As to this crisis and the plans offered to address it -- I have written about my views on democracy a while back. Democracy is not suitable for the average american human. The issues are too complex, the past history too complicated, and often the solutions are too messy.

    It too too easy to construct phony patriotic and mob incensing arguments. that make your opponents seem like traitorous tax hiking liberals.

    What more can be said of a society where more people believe in creationism than understand that the concentration of wealth (and therefore power) in this country has gone from the top 1% having 8% of the wealth , to now when its more than 20%.
    Last edited by BARYE; 09/30/2008 at 12:32 AM.
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  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    In her defense, the Dems were in effect promised that there would be between 85-100 Repug votes. Enough to immunize Dems from Repug demagoguing.

    The Dems were not willing to be tagged with owning a Bill that was created by Repugs to remedy a crisis created by Repugs.

    junior and McSame were unable to coral enough of their team. My understanding is that the Dem "Nays" would have supported the Bill if there were more Repug votes.

    As to your:

    "If the year were 1808 vs. 2008 the White House would be on fire..."

    I wish the White House had been burned the day they allowed junior and his junta to steal power in their court approved Coup.

    All the nightmares that have encompassed us since, have flowed down from that moment.

    As to this crisis and the plans offered to address it -- I have written about my views on democracy a while back. Democracy is not suitable for the average american human. The issues are too complex, the past history too complicated, and often the solutions are too messy.

    It too too easy to construct phoney patriotic and mob incensing arguments. that make your opponents seem like traitorous tax hiking liberals.

    What more can be said of a society where more people believe in creationism than understand that the concentration of wealth (and therefore power) in this country has gone from the top 1% having 8% of the wealth , to now when its more than 20%.

    Well the GOP sank this thing for sure. They promised at least an additional 12 votes and they didn't show up. Apparently, their "feelings got hurt". McSame took credit for getting this thing pushed through - and now he will assuredly not own up to his utter lack of leadership in coralling the GOP cats.

    But Nancy should not have brought it to the floor unless she KNEW she had the votes. She failed to convert another 12 Dems. And she gave a stupid speech on the floor just prior to the vote (which doesn't mean I condone those that changed their vote over her speech) demonstrating her lack of political prowess necessary to lead the House of Representatives.
  17. #137  
    The GOP sank it? How? Do you know how many Democrats voted against the bill? That was the reason it died and do not forget that Nancy Palosi killed the bill herself from the start with the statements she made. 40% of the Democrats voted against it, something like 94 of them. Something like 65 Republicans voted for it.

    So again, how did the Republicans mess this up? Do not the Democrats fully control the House?

    Take a look here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7641733.stm

    Now, who is to blame?
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    The GOP sank it? How? Do you know how many Democrats voted against the bill? That was the reason it died and do not forget that Nancy Palosi killed the bill herself from the start with the statements she made. 40% of the Democrats voted against it, something like 94 of them. Something like 65 Republicans voted for it.

    So again, how did the Republicans mess this up? Do not the Democrats fully control the House?

    Take a look here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7641733.stm

    Now, who is to blame?
    Ben you'll note that I've already said Pelosi was to blame as well. Noteworthy that you're unable to find fault with the bums that put our country in this position to begin with.

    And the reason I said the GOP sank it is because...THEY DID! They agreed that over 50% of their members would vote for the bill. The Dems got over 61% to vote for it...a BILL TO BAIL OUT THE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT...and yet, because their feelings were hurt, the GOP reneged on the bi-partisan deal they made. Basically...the GOP LIED to their own house leaders and said they'd vote for it but characteristically put their ideology and politics ahead of their country.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 09/30/2008 at 12:31 PM.
  19. #139  
    While you folks spend hours pointing fingers, look at the source of ALL the financial problems in the WORLD - This all started in about or around after the "Great Depression" The REPUBLIC converted the gold standard to paper money- the laughable federal reserve. - do an internet search - the creature from jeckyll island - listen - follow the money trail for banking rules -
    THE PIANO WAS FALLING FOR A LONG LONG LONG TIME - the "experts" just steered our attention away from it. A hundred years ago we were the wealthiest nation in the world - no debt and none of the outrageous taxes we have today. We were the envy of the world, today we are laughed at and hated. Why ------Follow the falling piano.....and the money trail.
  20. #140  
    The party that created the greatest economic crisis since the great depression: the Democrat party has the dirtiest hands. Look at Barney Frank first, especially his comments that all was well. You fail also to acknowledge that there are at least 2 in the Obama camp that came from FF & Leighman Bros. Acknowledge that and life gets good.

    You also know that Bill Clinton stated that his own party gave him trouble when he wanted to regulate FF. So, look no further than Barney and friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    Ben -- are not the people behind this: junior, Bernake, Cox, and Paulson ??

    Which party has created the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression ??

    Whose business friendly ideas were going to generate an unbelievable level of new american prosperity ??

    Which Presidential candidate's team is lead by a lobbyist that worked on behalf of your hated Fannie Mae ??

    Which part of it are you saying the Dems are responsible for ??
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