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  1. #21  
    I dislike Bonds and detest the Giants.

    But I respect the numbers put up by Bonds. Steroids might have helped a bit but the biggest benefit he received was being allowed to wear body armor on his right elbow. That probably got him 100 homers he wouldn't have got.
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  2. #22  
    Okay a few things....

    1) A-Rod is a talented player, plain and simple. He always put up staggering numbers. This year is different because he is basically playing in a new murderers row.

    2) Sosa never broke any record. Why do I say that? Because Macguire got to it before he did.

    3) The arm guard helps IMHO and being an Umpire for years I will tell you why. I think its a great tool to use in the lower aged leagues. Pros should not be allowed to use it because it limits the pitchers options. How? Because now a pitcher cannot pitch hard inside. The batter will not duck to avoid the beaning knowing if he gets hit its a minor bump. Also, if he hangs his elbow over the strike zone and gets hit, its still a strike, but they never call it.
  3. #23  
    Let's put Ichiro on roids and set the home run record to 3000?
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by tomvb2000 View Post
    Best quote I saw was along the lines of "Bonds did it on juice, Ruth did it on hot dogs and beer".
    But Ruth wasn't playing against the apearant competition of today even without juice. Ruth in his prime playing the game at the level it is today on hot dogs and beer wouldn't be near quite the player he was then. Every era is diferent. GOAT does not stand but the greatest of his era does. As many athletes that are on Steroids now and if in the future it increases...it will end up being the only way to be compettitive in any sport if not stopped and being the best will equate to being the best of the best on the juice(i.e. GOAT-OJ).
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  5.    #25  
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  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by KStewart View Post
    But Ruth wasn't playing against the apearant competition of today even without juice. Ruth in his prime playing the game at the level it is today on hot dogs and beer wouldn't be near quite the player he was then.
    Agree. In some ways, that makes Ruth's record even more special given the era when it was set and how long he held it.

    Mostly I just liked the quote for the humour value - and thanks for the pic.
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  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Let's put Ichiro on roids and set the home run record to 3000?
    Exactly.
  8.    #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Let's put Ichiro on roids and set the home run record to 3000?
    I'll up it a 1000 with Ichiro.
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  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Let's put Ichiro on roids and set the home run record to 3000?
    sigh, you just don't get it do you?



    enjoy a taste of your own medicine, ha ha.

    seriously (and I'm sure you know this DA) steroids are not a joke and you should not want to put people on them unless you want to offer them the chance to suffer debilitating long term health effects.

    Or unless you are interested in creating yet another negative role model to help our youth think steroids are a great way to get ahead in life.
  10.    #30  
    I am not saying Bonds didn't juice it but for all of those who think it with the first base of apearance, should think twice. Anybody can gain mass as Bonds did thru the years naturally.

    Roids!!!


    Definite Roid...


    ???
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  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    sigh, you just don't get it do you?



    enjoy a taste of your own medicine, ha ha.

    seriously (and I'm sure you know this DA) steroids are not a joke and you should not want to put people on them unless you want to offer them the chance to suffer debilitating long term health effects.

    Or unless you are interested in creating yet another negative role model to help our youth think steroids are a great way to get ahead in life.
    I am pretty sure da knows how serious this is and I think he was just kidding. There are long term mental effects also. This guy below is a mental case to overwork his bicepts and tricepts the way he did, and yes this is real not photoshoped...I seen him on TV talking about how his arms exploded.



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  12.    #32  
    No need to worry about steroids in golf.

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  13. #33  
    James Toney, the boxer, is another interesting example though. While he is big physically, his appearance isn't so shockingly muscular that you would think he'd have done steroids. He actually looks chunky.
    It was possible for him to reach that size naturally too, but he didn't. He instead used 'roids, as positive tests revealed.

    its possible for bonds to have reached his size naturally, but the likelihood that he did so is pretty low. His trainer I believe worked for BALCO. The yanks' Jason Giambi recently stated that he knew Bonds juiced.
    Bonds worked out with Gary Sheffield for a year, who later reported that Bonds had offered him an enhancement which would improve his game considerably.

    I guess my point is, there is a chance Bonds did it naturally, but the circumstances he put himself in make that very unlikely.
    His associations were as suspicious as it gets as far as steroids go so I have a very tough time even for a moment considering he is legit.
  14.    #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by treobk214 View Post
    James Toney, the boxer, is another interesting example though. While he is big physically, his appearance isn't so shockingly muscular that you would think he'd have done steroids. He actually looks chunky.
    It was possible for him to reach that size naturally too, but he didn't. He instead used 'roids, as positive tests revealed.

    its possible for bonds to have reached his size naturally, but the likelihood that he did so is pretty low. His trainer I believe worked for BALCO. The yanks' Jason Giambi recently stated that he knew Bonds juiced.
    Bonds worked out with Gary Sheffield for a year, who later reported that Bonds had offered him an enhancement which would improve his game considerably.

    I guess my point is, there is a chance Bonds did it naturally, but the circumstances he put himself in make that very unlikely.
    His associations were as suspicious as it gets as far as steroids go so I have a very tough time even for a moment considering he is legit.
    I totally agree. I in no way thought he wasn't just because of mass comparison.
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  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    sigh, you just don't get it do you?



    enjoy a taste of your own medicine, ha ha.

    seriously (and I'm sure you know this DA) steroids are not a joke and you should not want to put people on them unless you want to offer them the chance to suffer debilitating long term health effects.

    Or unless you are interested in creating yet another negative role model to help our youth think steroids are a great way to get ahead in life.
    I think you are the one that does not get it. Many people try to make the argument that steroids don't provide hand eye coordination so steroids or not Bonds is a great hitter to which I use Ichiro as an example of a great hitter who doesn't have the mass to get the ball out of the yard often but if he did he would stomp Bonds' numbers.
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I think you are the one that does not get it. Many people try to make the argument that steroids don't provide hand eye coordination so steroids or not Bonds is a great hitter to which I use Ichiro as an example of a great hitter who doesn't have the mass to get the ball out of the yard often but if he did he would stomp Bonds' numbers.
    If you can't kid a friend, who can you kid, DA?

    Anyway, you are right, given his naturally gifted reflexes, the muscular hypertrophy induced by steroid abuse would theoretically increase Ichiro's home run potential more than most people.

    But what I wonder about is how have we gotton to this situation in major league baseball, where profit is valued over the health of our players? Is the current environment which creates steroid abusing superstars and promotes steroid abuse among our young people just business as usual? How are we all are contributing to this unfortunate situation? By focusing just on Bonds as the scapegoat of our dissatisfaction, are we missing the bigger picture? I dont have all the answers but I think these questions are worth considering.
  17. #37  
    [QUOTE=cellmatrix;1328507]...But what I wonder about is how have we gotton to this situation in major league baseball, where profit is valued over the health of our players? Is the current environment which creates steroid abusing superstars and promotes steroid abuse among our young people just business as usual? How are we all are contributing to this unfortunate situation? ...QUOTE]

    in every competitive arena -- track and field, swimming, investment banking, politics -- winning is the goal.

    Everyone looks for any edge that can be found -- be it swimmers who use high tech streamline swimsuits, or politicians who market test intentional distortions of their opponent words.

    Any hyper motivated competitor will push the envelope of his training, his knowldge, and his ethics -- toward that ultimate goal.

    In their tunnel vision they will sacrifice anything toward that end -- that includes both their bodies and their consciences.

    It only becomes cheating when their "edge" is discovered, and the "referee" then defines it as cheating.
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  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    ...But what I wonder about is how have we gotton to this situation in major league baseball, where profit is valued over the health of our players? Is the current environment which creates steroid abusing superstars and promotes steroid abuse among our young people just business as usual? How are we all are contributing to this unfortunate situation? ...QUOTE]

    in every competitive arena -- track and field, swimming, investment banking, politics -- winning is the goal.

    Everyone looks for any edge that can be found -- be it swimmers who use high tech streamline swimsuits, or politicians who market test intentional distortions of their opponent words.

    Any hyper motivated competitor will push the envelope of his training, his knowldge, and his ethics -- toward that ultimate goal.

    In their tunnel vision they will sacrifice anything toward that end -- that includes both their bodies and their consciences.

    It only becomes cheating when their "edge" is discovered, and the "referee" then defines it as cheating.
    Its not the individuals that I fault so much as the organizations which oversee it. Whether its major league baseball, or the WWF, the bottom line is that, the more athletes that take steroids and improve the level of the game, the more that translates into super-steroid induced sales of tickets, TV commercial time slots and merchandise.

    Its ironic that raw laissez-faire capitalism is driving steroid abuse today, because historically steroid abuse was largely a tool to prop up a failing communist system - the extreme example being the East German swimming program. But even though the East Germans gave their athletes the drugs directly, while Pro baseball simply turns a blind eye while they let their players own competitiveness do the job for them, in the end the same unfortunate damage is done to the athletes.

    And while the East German government did not promote much steroid use among its general population, nowadays the easier availability of black market steroids combined with the growing profusion of steroid taking role models for our youth that pro sports are creating just translates into a far greater public health hazard than ever before.

    Its too bad that we've continued to allow this to happen. While a myopic focus only on hating Bonds will perhaps lead to nothing, I am hoping that this controversy might motivate us to look at the bigger picture and think about how to force professional sports organizations into more genuine efforts towards policing steroid abuse. We''ll see.
  19. #39  
    You've made some excellent points throughout this thread and I have to agree. Bonds has become the "poster child" for the MLB Steroid Era but we need to look beyond him to the underlying motivations that cause athletes to stretch the bounds of competitive preparation. MLB and Bud Selig definitely deserve blame for taking a blind eye for so long.

    As a baseball coach for the last 15 years, the Steroid Era has provided many teachable moments for my players in my hope they won't go to the extremes other high school athletes have . Not only does it harm their bodies long term, but there is potential to harm people around them if you believe the Chris Benoit murder-suicide was related to steroid use.
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  20. #40  
    The strange thing is Bonds and Macguire were putting up solid (not staggering) numbers before riods. The problem of steriods in baseball started when Brady Anderson of the Orioles all of a sudden for one season led the league in every catagory, then fell off the face of the earth. Bottom line is after the strike, baseball needed something, and the HR chase was it, and they turned a blind eye to the problem as long as the turnstiles kept turning.
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