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  1.    #1  
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19570081/

    Only prison time. Still has to pay fine but what a good ol' boy network they have there.
    Last edited by daThomas; 07/02/2007 at 05:08 PM.
  2. #2  
    WOW!! I'm not surprised though. Bush wants to make sure Libby keeps his mouth shut. I applaud that judge for forcing Bush's hand . I smell a Democratic landslide in this upcoming election.
  3.    #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    WOW!! I'm not surprised though. Bush wants to make sure Libby keeps his mouth shut. I applaud that judge for forcing Bush's hand . I smell a Democratic landslide in this upcoming election.
    I think it's more Libby taking the fall for Cheney but not having to spend a minute in fail for his felony obstruction CONVICTION unlike the hundreds of others sitting in prison for the same thing.
  4. #4  
    True True, I guess I view them one and the same. You know kinda like that two headed snake you see at the state fair. Still, It’s hard to believe he would throw the whole republican party under the bus like that. He’s got to know how bad this is going to play out.
  5.    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by Iago View Post
    True True, I guess I view them one and the same. You know kinda like that two headed snake you see at the state fair. Still, Itís hard to believe he would throw the whole republican party under the bus like that. Heís got to know how bad this is going to play out.
    Looks like it was the last few 30% that support him that wanted this. They actually wanted a pardon but he can keep them happy until after the election and will grant Libby a full pardon on his last day in office.
  6. tirk's Avatar
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    #6  
    I guess Bush must be taking a literal interpretation of "land of the free"?
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    #8  
    they just protect their own. it is very disgusting.
    morris stalk
  8. #9  
    By the grace of god we have a President with the moral fiber to pardon poor Mr. Libby for being complicent in an act of treason for political gain. I mean it's not as though Mr. Libby got a hummer in the oval office or something.
  9. #10  
    Nothing new......Below is a CNN article relating what Clinton's point of view was when he pardoned 140 people with offenses ranging from turning back an odometer on their car, multiple people for "False statements to agency of United States", several people for distribution of methamphetamine and cocaine trafficking, bribery, multiple people for "Conspiracy to defraud the government", Embezzlement, forgery, several people for tax evasion, Armed bank robbery......and "Knowingly making under oath a false declaration regarding a material fact before a grand jury"....a similiar charge that Libby was faced with.

    (the official full list of all 140 pardons can be found at http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm ).

    Clinton defends pardons, saying individuals 'paid in full' for crimes

    CHAPPAQUA, New York (CNN) -- Former President Bill Clinton on Sunday defended his 11th-hour pardon of 140 people, saying the public should be "open-minded" about the cases and the use of that executive privilege.

    "The word 'pardon' is somehow almost a misnomer," Clinton said. "You're not saying these people didn't comment the offense. You're saying they paid, they paid in full." As such, Clinton added, the people should be awarded full citizenship rights, including voting.

    http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLI...ons/index.html
    ..........and before any "Bush defender" or "I was just waiting for some right wing wacko to bring Bill into this" flames comes back.....I am not defending Bush in this action in any way. Only sharing past presidential perspectives on similar acts (and yes I know Bush did not offer a full pardon). And that I agree that I have little doubt that this could come up during the elections. I am only responding to some of the posts as if Bush has invented acts as low as this as if he is the only one showing favors to the "good ol' boy network". I fast we sometimes forget......
    • Carlos A. Vignali had his sentence for cocaine trafficking commuted, after serving 6 of 15 years in federal prison.
    • Almon Glenn Braswell was pardoned of his mail fraud and perjury convictions, even while a federal investigation was underway regarding additional money laundering and tax evasion charges.[11] Braswell and Carlos Vignali each paid approximately $200,000 to Hillary Clinton's brother, Hugh Rodham, to represent their respective cases for clemency. Hugh Rodham returned the payments after they were disclosed to the public. Braswell would later invoke the Fifth Amendment at a Senate Committee hearing in 2001, when questioned about allegations of his having systematically defrauded senior citizens of millions of dollars.[12]
    • Marc Rich, a fugitive, was pardoned of tax evasion, after clemency pleas from Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, among many other international luminaries. Denise Rich, Marc's former wife, was a close friend of the Clintons and had made substantial donations to both Clinton's library and Hillary's Senate campaign. Several months after her last donation, emails reveal Republican attorney "Scooter" Libby asked her to approach Clinton about pardoning Marc Rich. Clinton agreed to a pardon that required Marc Rich to pay a $100,000,000 fine before he could return to the United States. According to Paul Volcker's independent investigation of Iraqi Oil-for-Food kickback schemes, Marc Rich was a middleman for several suspect Iraqi oil deals involving over 4 million barrels of oil.[13]
    • Susan McDougal, who had already completed her sentence, was pardoned for her role in the Whitewater scandal; McDougal had served 18 months on contempt charges for refusing to testify about Clinton's role.
    • Roger Clinton, the president's half-brother, on drug charges. Roger Clinton would be charged with drunk driving and disorderly conduct in an unrelated incident within a year of the pardon.[14] He was also briefly alleged to have been utilized in lobbying for the Braswell pardon, among others.


    It has been pointed out that the total number of pardons Clinton granted was comparable to other presidents[15][16][17] and that Republican presidential pardons have also been controversial, including President Gerald Ford's pardon of former President Richard Nixon on September 8, 1974 and President George H. W. Bush's pardons of six Reagan administration officials accused or convicted in connection with the Iran-Contra affair and Orlando Bosch.

    SOURCE
    As far as pardons in recent administrations....Here are some the numbers for pardons for Reagan and Clinton:


    Here is also an interesting page with links to the history of Presenditial pardons...Link Here

    Again, I am not making a case for pardons...or any form of it....for those who have been convicted of committing crimes in any way....I still stand by my statements in the past that those who commit the crimes should be held accountable...only the scewing of a President extending a pardon to those close to them as if GWB would be the only Pres to have done so.

    But I can see that if this is pursued with a vengeance during the election that pardons that Clinton did will come up as well....something I don't Hillary would want to have to deal with.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/03/2007 at 12:37 AM.
  10. #11  
    ...I am not defending Bush in this action in any way.
    Then why post this stuff?

    Only sharing past presidential perspectives on similar acts (and yes I know Bush did not offer a full pardon).
    Let's be clear about something - the same right-wingers who voted to charge Clinton with obstruction of justice over lying about an extra-marital affair are now praising Bush for commuting the sentence of a man CONVICTED for obstruction of justice over a crime that was tantamount to TREASON. There is nothing in your list of "but Clinton did it too"s that compares so why bother posting this spin job?
  11.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Then why post this stuff?
    Really Hobbes! Your constant splattering of copy and paste right-wing talking points then stating you're neutral is getting old.

  12. #13  
    Because Clinton did it too. So what. Ben
  13. #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny
    Let's be clear about something - the same right-wingers who voted to charge Clinton with obstruction of justice over lying about an extra-marital affair are now praising Bush for commuting the sentence of a man CONVICTED for obstruction of justice over a crime that was tantamount to TREASON. There is nothing in your list of "but Clinton did it too"s that compares so why bother posting this spin job?
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Really Hobbes! Your constant splattering of copy and paste right-wing talking points then stating you're neutral is getting old.

    Everyone was so upset about what Bush just did and I just pointed out it has happened with every administration over the last 20 plus years. The sources are not right wing sources unless CNN and the BBC (which supplied the chart) is now a right wing source. I just Googled Pardons.

    I love it...there seemed to be nothing wrong with blasting Bush, which I feel can be rightly deserved (especially if you are talking about lack of domestic security, his constant push towards amensty, or favoring of his associates which all admins have been guilty of IMHO). But looking at and quoting sources with past Pardons is spinning and regurgitating right wing rhetoric? Did I post anything false?

    I just didn't hear you mention you were just as upset when this same thing happened in the past ....only because Bush did it. The middle quote was due to your direct statement in the OP that this was a unique act by Bush due to his good ol' boys club, which by the relationships with those that Clinton pardoned again shows it is no different on both sides of the fence.

    I only brought it into balance...in spite of agreeing that I do not really approve of Bush's actions. But in spite of generally agreeing with you I get personally attacked because I also pointed out similiar Dem actions. You just sometimes have a hard time relating to someone that does not have any political loyalties. If I disapprove of the Dems I must be a Bush or Rep lover. If I agree that Bush or Rep did something wrong but also point out that it is no different with what the Dems have done, then again I am a Right Wing wacko as the Dems couldn't possibly be as bad the Reps. If I recognize the Reps or Bush did something bad then I am must not be being honest. All the Dems are not evil and all Reps are the not the worst then we have ever seen in the history of our nation. And all Dems are not our saviors and all Reps are not innocent. I do not look at things through party colored glasses.

    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny
    sentence of a man CONVICTED for obstruction of justice over a crime that was tantamount to TREASON. There is nothing in your list of "but Clinton did it too"s that compares so why bother posting this spin job?
    Was he tried and convicted for Treason? But, here are some that may be closely related charges with each bullet point being for a different charge against a different person that Clinton pardoned (even though most of them obviously are not, would you consider any of them as also being close to treason?)......again these are only taken from the official US Gov statement ( http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm ).
    • "Willful transmission of defense information, unauthorized possession and retention of defense information, theft of government property"
    • "Conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, conspiracy to export arms and ammunition to a foreign country and related charges",
    • "Conspiracy to corruptly solicit and accept money in return for influencing the official acts of a federal district court judge (Alcee L. Hastings), and to defraud the United States in connection with the performance of lawful government functions; corruptly influencing, obstructing, impeding and endeavoring to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, and aiding and abetting therein; traveling interstate with intent to commit bribery"
    • "Making false statements to federal agents",
    • "Knowingly making under oath a false declaration regarding a material fact before a grand jury",
    • 2 more counts of "False declarations before grand jury"
    • "Conspiracy to defraud the United States"
    • "Conspiracy to make false statements"
    • 2 counts of "Perjury"
    • 2 counts of "False statements to agency of United States"
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 07/03/2007 at 04:27 AM.
  14. tirk's Avatar
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Nothing new......
    The biggest was surely Ford pardoning Nixon.

    Indeed, nothing new, or restricted to one party. And while supporters of the respective pardoners defend them, it will continue. Just think who [insert name of realistic presidential candidate you dislike most] could pardon in 2 years time!
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  15. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    Because Clinton did it too. So what. Ben
    Does that make is right? What happened to "two wrongs don't make a right?" Or does that involve too much personal accountability for you Ben?
  16. #17  
    Focusing on the relationship between Bush and Libby is misguided. The question is, is the action just?

    I see that being measured on two criteria:

    a. Does Mr. Bush have the authority to make such a determination?
    b. If so, is the resulting penalty ($250,000 and 2-years probation) commiserate with Mr. Libby's infraction?
  17. #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Everyone was so upset about what Bush just did and I just pointed out it has happened with every administration over the last 20 plus years. The sources are not right wing sources unless CNN and the BBC (which supplied the chart) is now a right wing source. I just Googled Pardons.

    I love it...there seemed to be nothing wrong with blasting Bush, which I feel can be rightly deserved (especially if you are talking about lack of domestic security, his constant push towards amensty, or favoring of his associates which all admins have been guilty of IMHO). But looking at and quoting sources with past Pardons is spinning and regurgitating right wing rhetoric? Did I post anything false?

    I just didn't hear you mention you were just as upset when this same thing happened in the past ....only because Bush did it. The middle quote was due to your direct statement in the OP that this was a unique act by Bush due to his good ol' boys club, which by the relationships with those that Clinton pardoned again shows it is no different on both sides of the fence.

    I only brought it into balance...in spite of agreeing that I do not really approve of Bush's actions. But in spite of generally agreeing with you I get personally attacked because I also pointed out similiar Dem actions. You just sometimes have a hard time relating to someone that does not have any political loyalties. If I disapprove of the Dems I must be a Bush or Rep lover. If I agree that Bush or Rep did something wrong but also point out that it is no different with what the Dems have done, then again I am a Right Wing wacko as the Dems couldn't possibly be as bad the Reps. If I recognize the Reps or Bush did something bad then I am must not be being honest. All the Dems are not evil and all Reps are the not the worst then we have ever seen in the history of our nation. And all Dems are not our saviors and all Reps are not innocent. I do not look at things through party colored glasses.


    Was he tried and convicted for Treason? But, here are some that may be closely related charges with each bullet point being for a different charge against a different person that Clinton pardoned (even though most of them obviously are not, would you consider any of them as also being close to treason?)......again these are only taken from the official US Gov statement ( http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pardonchartlst.htm ).
    • "Willful transmission of defense information, unauthorized possession and retention of defense information, theft of government property"
    • "Conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States, conspiracy to export arms and ammunition to a foreign country and related charges",
    • "Conspiracy to corruptly solicit and accept money in return for influencing the official acts of a federal district court judge (Alcee L. Hastings), and to defraud the United States in connection with the performance of lawful government functions; corruptly influencing, obstructing, impeding and endeavoring to influence, obstruct and impede the due administration of justice, and aiding and abetting therein; traveling interstate with intent to commit bribery"
    • "Making false statements to federal agents",
    • "Knowingly making under oath a false declaration regarding a material fact before a grand jury",
    • 2 more counts of "False declarations before grand jury"
    • "Conspiracy to defraud the United States"
    • "Conspiracy to make false statements"
    • 2 counts of "Perjury"
    • 2 counts of "False statements to agency of United States"
    Impressive. Another lovely post of a laundy list of things that Clinton did wrong. I don't agree nor did I agree with Clinton's pardons and I'd bet most here didn't either. But it is pointless to post this stuff unless you want to change the subject....which the right does very well.

    Post another million bullet points...I don't care. You know darn well if Clinton's team had maliciously outted a CIA agent for political gain they would have all been strung by their balls by now.

    Amazing how the right-wing loves to talk about personal accountability yet it is OK to undo what a jury, judge, and appeals court has done to insure one of their own is not held personally accountable for his actions.

    HYPOCRITES!!!!!
  18. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Focusing on the relationship between Bush and Libby is misguided.
    Really? Was it misguided to focus on the relationship between Bill and Monica? I mean, Clinton was charged with obstruction of justice not the affair itself.

    a. Does Mr. Bush have the authority to make such a determination?
    Actually, he may not have. There are certain criteria that needs to be in play for him to use this authority and Libby did not meet it by almost all counts.

    b. If so, is the resulting penalty ($250,000 and 2-years probation) commiserate with Mr. Libby's infraction?
    NO! He was convicted by a jury of his peers and sentenced by a judge. The sentence was then upheld by appeal where two Republican judges sat! How can you rationalize this?
  19. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    The biggest was surely Ford pardoning Nixon.

    Indeed, nothing new, or restricted to one party. And while supporters of the respective pardoners defend them, it will continue. Just think who [insert name of realistic presidential candidate you dislike most] could pardon in 2 years time!
    Nixon was never formally charged and convicted. Ford pardoned him to make sure that would not happen.

    So we're talking apples and oranges here. Libby was CONVICTED!
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