Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 99
  1.    #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    I think there are a lot of things that seem "obvious" to you about this Administration but which lack any evidence.
    Actually there's an over abundance.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    Anyone who lies under oath commits a crime.

    Example 1: A person lies under oath to hide a personal affair from his wife and family

    Example 2: A person lies under oath to help make a dubious case for war, plunging a vital part of the world into instability and provide training grounds for international terrorism. And cause depth of 100,000+ humans.

    Do these deserve to be discussed in the same thread? You be the judge.
    I think you're a little confused about timing and causality. Libby's testimony to the Grand Jury occurred long after the war began, and so could not have caused the war.
  3. #43  
    It is the an enormous issue; it is an over blown issue. It is an issue over blown because one group just never got over the last election.

    Ben
  4.    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    I think you're a little confused about timing and causality. Libby's testimony to the Grand Jury occurred long after the war began, and so could not have caused the war.
    So it should have been phrased lies under oath about an attempt to sabotage a critic of moving towards war. You're really splitting hairs.
  5.    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It is the an enormous issue; it is an over blown issue. It is an issue over blown because one group just never got over the last election.

    Ben
    You mean the one where the Repubs were handed their arses due to the general public's dissatisfaction with an unnecessary and ineptly carried out war?

  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    You posted this while I was writing my last post. You see...this is all Iwas talking about. Thomas was saying just another example of Bush and his Good Ol' Boys Club, which such mentality and actions I have never approved of, is not unique to Bush as was the impression in the begininnig of the thread.
    You're right - it's not unique to Bush. I never agreed with Clinton's pardons, nor did many Dems despite the fact that many on the right act as though the Dems were all on board with his pardons. The hypocrisy I speak of is the right wingers who were outraged over Clinton's actions back then yet today defend Bush's actions. It is hypocritical of Dems if they in fact supported and defended the Clinton pardons but the fact is that when Rich was pardoned many were vocal about it and disagreed publicly with Clinton's decision.

    Fast forward to today and I find it outrageous that Repubs - many in which were up in arms back when Rich was pardoned just as Dems were - are now rationalizing Bush's actions with the usual "Clinton did it too" and calling Dems hypocrites and acting as though the all lined up behind Clinton when he pardoned Rich.

    As to the magnitude of the crime, Fitzgerald prosecuted Libby because he knew a crime had been committed (outting an undecover CIA agent) and caught Libby lying to prevent him from obtaining the truth about the real crime in this whole case. You can call it what you want but I think outting a CIA agent is treason. I mean, had it been some Naval officer that got caught outting her to Iranians the guy would be called a spy and locked up in prison far the next two decades. Libby lied to protect someone and to prevent justice from being rendered in what was an obvious crime.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 07/04/2007 at 12:12 AM.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    I think there are a lot of things that seem "obvious" to you about this Administration but which lack any evidence.
    Kind of hard to get to evidence when it is constantly hidden under claims of "executive priviledge"....well unless of course they don't want oversight of the exectuve branch then we're to believe Cheney is not part of the executive branch. What a friggin' farce.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    It is the an enormous issue; it is an over blown issue. It is an issue over blown because one group just never got over the last election.

    Ben
    Oh Ben Ben Ben. Mr. Personal Accountability. I always knew your claimed desire for personal responsibility was utter BS.
  9. #49  
    I never liked the guy on ESPN, but man did Olberman lay it out on his new show tonight. I just caught the end of it in my hotel in Sunnyvale and thought it was worth looking up and posting. This about sums it all up for me.

    "I didn't vote for him," an American once said, "But he's my president, and I hope he does a good job."
    That -- on this eve of the 4th of July -- is the essence of this democracy, in seventeen words.
    And that -- is what President Bush threw away yesterday in commuting the sentence of Lewis "Scooter" Libby.

    The man who said those seventeen words -- improbably enough -- was the actor John Wayne.

    And Wayne, an ultra-conservative, said them, when he learned of the hair's-breadth election of John F. Kennedy instead of his personal favorite, Richard Nixon in 1960.
    "I didn't vote for him but he's my president, and I hope he does a good job."

    The sentiment was doubtlessly expressed earlier.
    But there is something especially appropriate about hearing it, now, in Wayne's voice:
    The crisp matter-of-fact acknowledgement that we have survived, even though for nearly two centuries now, our Commander-in-Chief has also served, simultaneously, as the head of one political party and often the scourge of all others.
    ---
    We as citizens must, at some point, ignore a president's partisanship. Not that we may prosper as a nation, not that we may achieve, not that we may lead the world -- but merely that we may function.
    But just as essential to the seventeen words of John Wayne, is an implicit trust -- a sacred trust:
    That the president for whom so many did not vote, can in turn suspend his political self long enough, and for matters imperative enough, to conduct himself solely for the benefit of the entire Republic.

    Our generation's willingness to state "we didn't vote for him, but he's our president, and we hope he does a good job," was tested in the crucible of history, and earlier than most.
    And in circumstances more tragic and threatening.
    And we did.... that with which history tasked us.

    We enveloped our President in 2001.
    And those who did not believe he should have been elected -- indeed those who did not believe he had been elected -- willingly lowered their voices and assented to the sacred oath of non-partisanship.

    And George W. Bush took our assent, and re-configured it, and honed it, and shaped it to a razor-sharp point...,and stabbed this nation in the back with it.
    Were there any remaining lingering doubt otherwise, or any remaining lingering hope, it ended yesterday when Mr. Bush commuted the prison sentence of one of his own staffers.
    Did so even before the appeals process was complete…
    Did so without as much as a courtesy consultation with the Department of Justice…
    Did so despite what James Madison -- at the Constitutional Convention -- said about impeaching any president who pardoned or sheltered those who had committed crimes "advised by" that president…
    Did so without the slightest concern that even the most detached of citizens must look at the chain of events and wonder:
    To what degree was Mr. Libby told: break the law however you wish -- the President will keep you out of prison?

    In that moment, Mr. Bush, you broke that fundamental com-pact between yourself and the majority of this nation's citizens -- the ones who did not cast votes for you.
    In that moment, Mr. Bush, you ceased to be the President of the United States.
    In that moment, Mr. Bush, you became merely the President… of a rabid and irresponsible corner of the Republican Party.
    And this is too important a time, Sir, to have a commander-in-chief who puts party over nation.

    This has been, of course, the gathering legacy of this Administration.
    Few of its decisions have escaped the stain of politics.
    The extraordinary Karl Rove has spoken of "a permanent Republican majority," as if such a thing -- or a permanent Democratic majority -- is not antithetical to that upon which rests: our country, our history, our revolution, our freedoms.

    Yet our Democracy has survived shrewder men than Karl Rove.
    And it has survived the frequent stain of politics upon the fabric of government.
    But this administration, with ever-increasing insistence and almost theo-cratic zealotry, has turned that stain… into a massive oil spill.

    The protection of the environment… is turned over to those of one political party, who will financially benefit from the rape of the environment.

    The protections of the Constitution… are turned over to those of one political party, who believe those protections unnecessary and extravagant and quaint.

    The enforcement of the laws… is turned over to those of one political party, who will swear beforehand that they will not enforce those laws.

    The choice between war and peace… is turned over to those of one political party, who stand to gain vast wealth by ensuring that there is never peace, but only war.

    And now, when just one cooked book gets corrected by an honest auditor…
    When just one trampling of the inherent and inviolable fairness of government is rejected by an impartial judge…
    When just one wild-eyed partisan is stopped by the figure of blind justice…
    This President decides that he, and not the law, must prevail.

    I accuse you, Mr. Bush, of lying this country into war.
    I accuse you of fabricating in the minds of your own people, a false implied link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11.
    I accuse you of firing the generals who told you that the plans for Iraq were disastrously insufficient.
    I accuse you of causing in Iraq the needless deaths of 3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors.
    I accuse you of subverting the Constitution, not in some misguided but sincerely-motivated struggle to combat terrorists, but to stifle dissent.
    I accuse you of fomenting fear among your own people, of creating the very terror you claim to have fought.
    I accuse you of exploiting that unreasoning fear, the natural fear of your own people who just want to live their lives in peace, as a political tool to slander your critics and libel your opponents.
    I accuse you of handing part of this Republic over to a Vice President who is without conscience, and letting him run roughshod over it.
    And I accuse you now, Mr. Bush, of giving, through that Vice President, carte blanche to Mr. Libby, to help defame Ambassador Joseph Wilson by any means necessary, to lie to Grand Juries and Special Counsel and before a court, in order to protect the mechanisms and particulars of that defamation, with your guarantee that Libby would never see prison, and, in so doing, as Ambassador Wilson himself phrased it here last night, of becoming an accessory… to the obstruction of justice.

    ---
    When President Nixon ordered the firing of the Watergate special prosecutor Archibald Cox during the infamous "Saturday Night Massacre" on October 20th, 1973, Cox initially responded tersely, and ominously.
    "Whether ours shall be a government of laws and not of men, is now for Congress, and ultimately, the American people."

    President Nixon did not understand how he had crystallized the issue of Watergate for the American people.

    It had been about the obscure meaning behind an attempt to break in to a rival party's headquarters; and the labyrinthine effort to cover-up that break-in and the related crimes.

    And in one night, Nixon transformed it.
    Watergate -- instantaneously -- became a simpler issue: a President overruling the inexorable march of the law… of insisting -- in a way that resonated viscerally with millions who had not previously understood - that he was the law.
    Not the Constitution.
    Not the Congress.
    Not the Courts.
    Just him.

    Just - Mr. Bush - as you did, yesterday.
    The twists and turns of Plame-Gate, of your precise and intricate lies that sent us into this bottomless pit of Iraq; your lies upon the lies to discredit Joe Wilson; your lies upon the lies upon the lies to throw the sand at the "referee" of Prosecutor Fitzgerald's analogy… these are complex and often painful to follow, and too much, perhaps, for the average citizen.
    But when other citizens render a verdict against your man, Mr. Bush -- and then you spit in the faces of those jurors and that judge and the judges who were yet to hear the appeal -- the average citizen understands that, Sir.
    It's the fixed ballgame and the rigged casino and the pre-arranged lottery all rolled into one -- and it stinks.
    And they know it.

    Nixon's mistake, the last and most fatal of them, the firing of Archibald Cox, was enough to cost him the presidency.
    And in the end, even Richard Nixon could say he could not put this nation through an impeachment.
    It was far too late for it to matter then, but as the decades unfold, that single final gesture of non-partisanship, of acknowledged responsibility not to self, not to party, not to "base," but to country, echoes loudly into history.
    Even Richard Nixon knew it was time to resign

    Would that you could say that, Mr. Bush.
    And that you could say it for Mr. Cheney.
    You both crossed the Rubicon yesterday.
    Which one of you chose the route, no longer matters.
    Which is the ventriloquist, and which the dummy, is irrelevant.
    But that you have twisted the machinery of government into nothing more than a tawdry machine of politics, is the only fact that remains relevant.
    It is nearly July 4th, Mr. Bush, the commemoration of the moment we Americans decided that rather than live under a King who made up the laws, or erased them, or ignored them -- or commuted the sentences of those rightly convicted under them -- we would force our independence, and regain our sacred freedoms.
    We of this time -- and our leaders in Congress, of both parties -- must now live up to those standards which echo through our history:
    Pressure, negotiate, impeach -- get you, Mr. Bush, and Mr. Cheney, two men who are now perilous to our Democracy, away from its helm.
    For you, Mr. Bush, and for Mr. Cheney, there is a lesser task.
    You need merely achieve a very low threshold indeed.
    Display just that iota of patriotism which Richard Nixon showed, on August 9th, 1974.
    Resign.
    And give us someone -- anyone -- about whom all of us might yet be able to quote John Wayne, and say, "I didn't vote for him, but he's my president, and I hope he does a good job."
    ---
    Good night, and good luck.
    Last edited by moderateinny; 07/04/2007 at 12:46 AM.
  10.    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I never liked the guy on ESPN, but man did Olberman lay it out on his show tonight. I just caught the end of it in my hotel in Sunnyvale and thought it was worth looking up and posting. This about sums it all up for me.
    WOW! That will be in history books for the next 1000 years. That was truly heart felt and spot-on. You gotta watch it.

    Go to MSNBC and click the launch button under the pic.

    Thanks for posting that moderateinny!
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    So it should have been phrased lies under oath about an attempt to sabotage a critic of moving towards war. You're really splitting hairs.
    He claimed that this crime caused the war, killing 100,000+ people. Yeah, same thing as attacking a critic.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Kind of hard to get to evidence when it is constantly hidden under claims of "executive priviledge"....well unless of course they don't want oversight of the exectuve branch then we're to believe Cheney is not part of the executive branch. What a friggin' farce.
    So if you lack evidence, just go ahead and assume guilt
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    WOW! That will be in history books for the next 1000 years. That was truly heart felt and spot-on. You gotta watch it.

    Go to MSNBC and click the launch button under the pic.

    Thanks for posting that moderateinny!
    Keith Olbermann, Drama Queen.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    So if you lack evidence, just go ahead and assume guilt
    No. Where you smell smoke there is likely fire.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    No. Where you smell smoke there is likely fire.
    As far as you're concerned, Cheney doesn't deserve presumption of innocence or due process.

    What was that word you used before?
  16. #56  
    Umm...no, never said that. I said there is smoke - meaning there is compelling reasons to suspect he may be guilty of a crime - or fire.

    Frankly I don't know the context of your question though? If you are referring to his sudden claims that he is not a member of the executive team then yes, I think that is awfully suspicious (never mind blatantly outrageous since he has previously claimed he was part of the executive branch...when it suited him well).
  17. tirk's Avatar
    Posts
    810 Posts
    Global Posts
    918 Global Posts
    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by samkim View Post
    As far as you're concerned, Cheney doesn't deserve presumption of innocence or due process.
    Someone leaked. Are you saying it was Bush then?
    PalmPilot Professional...Palm Vx...Treo 600...Treo 680...HTC Touch HD...iPhone 4S...
  18. #58  
    The President (ab)used his powers to sabotage a criminal investigation that was getting too close to his Vice President. And all some people can say is (I'm paraphrasing here) "whats the big deal here? Don't you guys have any better things to talk about, like..I don't know....Clinton?" I am LMFAO listening to this. The good news is that the investigation WILL continue regardless of the President's attempts to derail it. Thank goodness for checks and balances, don't you just love America! Happy 4th everyone!
  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    The good news is that the investigation WILL continue regardless of the President's attempts to derail it.
    How's that then?
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by tirk View Post
    Someone leaked. Are you saying it was Bush then?
    Richard Armitage, former Deputy Secretary of State. He's the guy who's responsible for the "treasonous" act which triggered Joe Wilson's unsupported accusations that Rove and Cheney leaked Plame's identity to get back at Wilson for opposing the war. The problem is, Armitage doesn't fit into this paranoid delusion.
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions