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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    Personally, based on what I've seen, I think the number of H1B visa's allowed each year should be cut in half, and restricted to workers with salaries above $100,000 per year. That would truly limit the program to highly skilled, hard to fill positions requiring special expertise, and force companies to train the people they have on board instead of importing cheap labor from abroad.

    Oh boy... here we go again... Do you have any idea of what you are saying??? If a H1b visa was given only for workers who are going to get pay above $100, 000 per year there would be almost no legal immigrants in the US? In other words, people who just got a bachelor or master degree in the US would not be able to work because nobody is going to pay them $100k Not even a doctor doing his/her first years of residency will get paid that much.
    Remember immigration laws are already a burden for legal immigrants who have a bachelor/master degree (read my first post if you have no idea) So why make things worst by cutting opportunities for people who want to live a decent life. Now, illegal immigration should be something to worry more.

    Dude you sound like a Nazi, relax... no need to kill people's future just because they are not Americans.

    Al
  2. #42  
    Great post. I agree that the program should be revised to ensure H1B slots are used for highly-skilled and higher-wage postitions that cannot be filled otherwise. I am not sure about quota limitations though just because I know how hard it can be to find a guy with CMOS expertise (for instance) so perhaps the areas in which H1Bs can be hired needs to be narrowed, but limiting the quota with a broad stroked approach won't work either.
    I do not agree with you on that. I believe any legal immigrant with a bachelor/master degree should be given the chance to apply for an H1b visa and be given the same wage and treatment as any other American worker.

    Whether or not Indians and Asian workers come here and work under H1B has a far smaller impact on our economy than the simple fact that there are millions of them working for a fraction of the cost of the average American over in their own countries. We can and should pressure the Chinese to properly value their currency and find ways to improve the trade imbalance and that will help our workers more so than revising the H1B visa program IMO...at least shorter term. But we need to face reality as well...America is being knocked down to size and we all need to recognize that global economic parity is happening and it will have a lasting effect on how we live.
    I agree with you 100% H1b workers do not impact the economy in a bad way, but in a more positive way. Outsourcing is what makes everything really bad and it needs to be controlled. Also, illegal immigration needs to be controlled because it does affect the economy because some of our tax money goes to them and some of our jobs are given to them because they make themselves look like a legal immigrant.

    Al
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    I do not agree with you on that. I believe any legal immigrant with a bachelor/master degree should be given the chance to apply for an H1b visa and be given the same wage and treatment as any other American worker.
    We'll have to agree to disagree then. But I don't think I said that NOT every legal immigrant with a BS/MS desgree should be able to appply. I am saying that the H1B slot itself should be controlled in the way it is used and restricted to higher-wage higher-skilled positions. This serves as a mechanism for attracting talent from outside our borders as well as incentive to US citizens to educate themselves. But where I think we disagree is that if you have a US company, on US soil, and a high-wage, high-skilled position can be filled with a US citizen for a position at that company....sorry but the I feel the US citizen should get the job. Rank has it's priviledges.
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    Oh boy... here we go again... Do you have any idea of what you are saying??? If a H1b visa was given only for workers who are going to get pay above $100, 000 per year there would be almost no legal immigrants in the US? In other words, people who just got a bachelor or master degree in the US would not be able to work because nobody is going to pay them $100k Not even a doctor doing his/her first years of residency will get paid that much.
    Remember immigration laws are already a burden for legal immigrants who have a bachelor/master degree (read my first post if you have no idea) So why make things worst by cutting opportunities for people who want to live a decent life. Now, illegal immigration should be something to worry more.

    Dude you sound like a Nazi, relax... no need to kill people's future just because they are not Americans.

    Al
    That is a bit rough. I understand his position and there is nothing "nazi like" about it. Your view of the world may some day come about...where borders of all countries melt away and one can hop from country to country (if there is even such a thing)....but this is probably centuries away and not reality today. Today we have countries and citizens and governments of various types that are supposed to provide security to the citizens of that country. There is nothing more fundamental to the security of a nation than affording its citizens the ability to earn a living. IF a citizen of that country is qualified for a job opening at a company in that country THEN that citizen should be considered before any others from other countries.
  5. #45  
    WOW! daThomas & I agree on something?
    Lou Dobbs & The Daily Kos agree as well?
    The world is truly at an end!

    How many have an urge to punch that seminar lawyer guy in the mouth?

    I disagree about the need to teach other languages in our schools, though.
    When I grew up, it was encouraged, but not required. Now I object strongly to the growing "need" to learn another language in order to work even a min-wage job at McDonalds. They should learn English before applying for the jobs, their co-workers and bosses should not "need" to learn spanish.

    I could slightly understand having other languages on menus, etc. for customers. But to actively recruit non-english speakers as employees? That gets my goat. It's bad enough that they can't understand my plain-english food order, but to actively look for people who are by-definition, incompetant to understand?? No excuse!

    Now this seminar shows that this is precisely what they are doing, not just recruiting some, but wanting to recruit all, their employees from outside the US.

    I can understand some jobs requiring some short-term guest workers, but this is abuse of the concept to the maximum. This immigration bill has to die. Seal the borders first, then we can discuss reforming the immigration process, which does indeed require major renovations.
    "Everybody Palm!"

    Palm III/IIIC, Palm Vx, Verizon: Treo 650, Centro, Pre+.
    Leo killed my future Pre 3 & Opal, dagnabitt!
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  6.    #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    Was it necessary to post the same thing over and over and over? Yes, I had my first son once I got a job after college.

    Al
    The server was hanging. I reported the multiple posts when it happened.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    But where I think we disagree is that if you have a US company, on US soil, and a high-wage, high-skilled position can be filled with a US citizen for a position at that company....sorry but the I feel the US citizen should get the job. Rank has it's priviledges.
    I agree with you on that and I believe that a US citizen should be given a higher priority to fill out a position, but also legal immigrants should still be given a chance to get a job and be paid the same as a US citizen (which is exactly what happens in many places across the US) Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that H1b workers should be given a higher priority, I'm saying that they should be given the opportunity to work legally. That is what makes this country so rich and powerful.

    The video posted on this thread does not reflect the real truth across the nation. So do not panic, otherwise I'm going to start posting YouTube videos from stupid teenagers and say that all teenegers think or do the same things.

    Al
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1 View Post
    This immigration bill has to die. Seal the borders first, then we can discuss reforming the immigration process, which does indeed require major renovations.
    LOL.... was this meant to be a joke? or are you seriously that ? There is more than meet the eye my friend. Immigration is not the same as terrorism or vandalism. Remember that this nation was built with the help of immigrants from all over the world.

    Al
  9. #49  
    Al, most Americans in the middle and to the right believe the same - the border issue is paramount. We all remember this nation was built with the help of immigrants; however, without a secure border, we are wide open to terrorist attacks. A sealed border slightly reduces it. Why help the terrorist? Why help those that come in to this country illegally?

    No one says no to immigration. What I am bunches more want is a sealed border, make it so that those entering the country are checked against some source to reduce the likelihood of terrorist associations, and to encourage assimilation. Our laws are good, we just have to enforce them.

    Ben
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by bclinger View Post
    We all remember this nation was built with the help of immigrants; however, without a secure border, we are wide open to terrorist attacks. A sealed border slightly reduces it. Why help the terrorist? Why help those that come in to this country illegally?

    No one says no to immigration. What I am bunches more want is a sealed border, make it so that those entering the country are checked against some source to reduce the likelihood of terrorist associations, and to encourage assimilation. Our laws are good, we just have to enforce them.

    Ben
    I agree with you but I think duanedude1 is actually trying to say that immigration in general should just be stopped, which is wrong. I do believe in laws and I'm not really a supporter of illegal immigration. So yeah control is good, banning legal immigrants from getting a job is not a good idea.

    Al
  11.    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    I agree with you but I think duanedude1 is actually trying to say that immigration in general should just be stopped, which is wrong. I do believe in laws and I'm not really a supporter of illegal immigration. So yeah control is good, banning legal immigrants from getting a job is not a good idea.

    Al
    Immigration labor must be controlled. If it is not, then labor has no value and wages just continue to deflate. The current manual labor/service industry labor situation, as in being addicted to cheap illegal immigrant labor, is the result of existing laws NOT being enforced against EMPLOYERS.

    If the laws regarding the use of H1B visas are not enforced then employers will simply abuse the high tech labor market (as evidenced in the video) as well.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Immigration labor must be controlled. If it is not, then labor has no value and wages just continue to deflate. The current manual labor/service industry labor situation, as in being addicted to cheap illegal immigrant labor, is the result of existing laws NOT being enforced against EMPLOYERS.

    If the laws regarding the use of H1B visas are not enforced then employers will simply abuse the high tech labor market (as evidenced in the video) as well.
    Frankly I wonder if quotas may be the only way to curb the abuses? How much would it cost us taxpayers to aggresively monitor and prosecute suspected violations of whatever laws they pass?
  13.    #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Frankly I wonder if quotas may be the only way to curb the abuses? How much would it cost us taxpayers to aggresively monitor and prosecute suspected violations of whatever laws they pass?
    No new laws need to be passed. Enforcing the existing laws against employers should be adequate.
  14. #54  
    On a more practical side, this is what happens:

    To get started, skilled workers (these typically have at least masters degree, all the way up to PhD's who are looking for professor or jobs at research labs) get on a H1B temporary work visa (for 3 years, extendable to 5). This does not require proof that no US citizen or legal resident is being displaced. It simply requires that the wages be at least equal to the prevailing wage for that type of work in that part of US.

    So, this gets the employer and the employee about 3 years to then apply for and get the "green card". That does require certification from the department of labor that the alien is not depriving a US US citizen/legal resident of a job. This involves placing an ad and showing that no qualified US citizen/resident applied for the job in question.

    This is what the seminar seemed to be focusing on. After having a good employee working there for many years, neither the employee, nor the employer wants to have to fire the guy because some other person applies for the job. Both sides (and the lawyers) have a vested interest in the process succeeding. The worker doesn't want to have to leave, the employer doesn't want to hire and re-train a new unknown quantity, and IMO, we as a society are better off with these highly educated people emigrating to US (through a legal process).

    So, they push the boundaries of the process and make that happen, while staying within the letter of the law (but, maybe not the spirit). Again, a lot of the practices are common and shaped by what the immigration courts have decided on matters as they get adjudicated.

    So, DaT, everyone is enforcing the law. But as you know, the devil is in the details. The enforcement of ANY law depends on the people interpreting the law.
    --
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  15.    #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    On a more practical side, this is what happens:

    To get started, skilled workers (these typically have at least masters degree, all the way up to PhD's who are looking for professor or jobs at research labs) get on a H1B temporary work visa (for 3 years, extendable to 5). This does not require proof that no US citizen or legal resident is being displaced. It simply requires that the wages be at least equal to the prevailing wage for that type of work in that part of US.

    So, this gets the employer and the employee about 3 years to then apply for and get the "green card". That does require certification from the department of labor that the alien is not depriving a US US citizen/legal resident of a job. This involves placing an ad and showing that no qualified US citizen/resident applied for the job in question.

    This is what the seminar seemed to be focusing on. After having a good employee working there for many years, neither the employee, nor the employer wants to have to fire the guy because some other person applies for the job. Both sides (and the lawyers) have a vested interest in the process succeeding. The worker doesn't want to have to leave, the employer doesn't want to hire and re-train a new unknown quantity, and IMO, we as a society are better off with these highly educated people emigrating to US (through a legal process).

    So, they push the boundaries of the process and make that happen, while staying within the letter of the law (but, maybe not the spirit). Again, a lot of the practices are common and shaped by what the immigration courts have decided on matters as they get adjudicated.

    So, DaT, everyone is enforcing the law. But as you know, the devil is in the details. The enforcement of ANY law depends on the people interpreting the law.
    It seems what you describe is the ideal. The reality is more like the following:

    Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less

    26 October 2005

    A recent report suggests that US employers are using the H-1B visa program to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.


    According to "The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers — F.Y. 2004," a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid "significantly less than their American counterparts."

    How much less? "On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state."

    Miano based his report on OES (Occupational Employment Statistics) data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics which estimates wages for the entire country by state and metropolitan area. The report's H-1B wage data came from the U.S. Department of Labor's H-1B disclosure Web site.

    Miano, in his report, whenever possible gave the benefit of the doubt to the employer. For example, he used OES data from 2003 because this is the wage information that would have been available to the employers when filing an LCA (labor condition application).

    Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as "programmer/analyst," Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.

    Nonetheless, Miano's report shows that wages paid to H-1B workers in computer programming occupations had a mean salary of $52,312, while the OES mean was $67,700; a difference of $15,388. The report also lists the OES median salary as $65,003, or $12,691 higher than the H-1B median.

    When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573.

    Here are some other interesting national wage comparisons: The mean salary of an H-1B computer scientist is $78,169, versus $90,146 according to the OES. For an H-1B network analyst, the mean salary is $55,358, versus the OES mean salary of $64,799. And for the title "system administrator," there was a $17,478 difference in salary between the H-1B mean and the OES mean.

    H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. "That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners," the report notes.

    While it would be difficult to prove that any one particular employer is hiring foreign workers to pay less, the statistics show that, for whatever reason, this is exactly what is happening on a nationwide basis. Miano says lobbyists will admit that a small number of companies are abusing the H-1B program, but what he has found in this research is that almost everyone is abusing it.

    "Abuse is by far more common than legitimate use," he says.
  16. #56  
    You are probably correct that some H1B workers do get exploited. My scenario was that of a person having graduated with an advanced degree from a US College. These guys apply for jobs at reputable US companies/universities, and are not exploited, IMO.

    The one's that are nor likely to be exploited are the H1B's imported by the (let's use this as an example) Indian consulting companies that win the contract for technical or financial services. These are typically employees of the Indian company, and are placed for 2-3 years at a US client. Very few, if any, of these H1B's are on a track to become permanent residents (unless they find employment at the US-based "client" or some other US company.) These "imported" H1B's may be getting paid less, but are nevertheless glad to be here.

    My view is that as long as there is a need, people will find a way to "work the system". You cannot make laws that are bullet-proof in their implementation. At least, these H1B and those graduating from US universities, are not crossing over a border at night. They are following all laws, paying their taxes, and working within the legal system.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  17.    #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    You are probably correct that some H1B workers do get exploited. My scenario was that of a person having graduated with an advanced degree from a US College. These guys apply for jobs at reputable US companies/universities, and are not exploited, IMO.

    The one's that are nor likely to be exploited are the H1B's imported by the (let's use this as an example) Indian consulting companies that win the contract for technical or financial services. These are typically employees of the Indian company, and are placed for 2-3 years at a US client. Very few, if any, of these H1B's are on a track to become permanent residents (unless they find employment at the US-based "client" or some other US company.) These "imported" H1B's may be getting paid less, but are nevertheless glad to be here.

    My view is that as long as there is a need, people will find a way to "work the system". You cannot make laws that are bullet-proof in their implementation. At least, these H1B and those graduating from US universities, are not crossing over a border at night. They are following all laws, paying their taxes, and working within the legal system.
    The increasing practice is for foreign companies to bring over low level tech workers with an H1B to rapidly learn a company's logic and practices then return to their country where that job is then done by them remotely. So H1Bs are actually assisting in outsourcing American jobs.

    Here's a Good Article on this.
  18. #58  
    Yes. The world is flat.

    Flattening happens when a whole lot (in India, China) benefit a little while a few (in US) lose a lot. We can fight this for a while, but eventually, the world will flatten. We have to innovate at a greater pace than others to keep ahead.

    The World is Flat is borrowed from Tom Friedman (NYT). He also thinks that every graduating PhD in the US should get a green card with his/her diploma.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
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  19.    #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by aprasad View Post
    Yes. The world is flat.

    Flattening happens when a whole lot (in India, China) benefit a little while a few (in US) lose a lot. We can fight this for a while, but eventually, the world will flatten. We have to innovate at a greater pace than others to keep ahead.

    The World is Flat is borrowed from Tom Friedman (NYT). He also thinks that every graduating PhD in the US should get a green card with his/her diploma.
    I'm afraid I'm a little more committed to the American worker's well being than that. Flattening suggests that another county's population benefits overall from these jobs shifting to cheaper talent. I would offer that India is an example where this is not the case.
  20. #60  
    Indian population has benefited from the outsourcing. The wealth is not spread out evenly, but it is there. Urban middle class in India is benefiting a lot.

    Globalization is a tricky subject. Some say that globalization could mean exploitation of natural resources (Africa) or labor (China, Bangladesh sweat shops) by the rich countries. For example, Mohammad Yunus, Nobel Prize winner from Bangladesh thinks so.

    http://www.charlierose.com/shows/200...el-peace-prize

    Some would complain that US stands to lose by outsourcing it's higher paid jobs to India, Ireland etc. Yunus (and you, apparently) agree that globalization has to be managed, and not left to the capitalistic markets.

    I don't think globalization can be managed without stifling world trade and growth overall, but it's a worthy endeavor.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
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