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  1. #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    Finally, somebody with real life experience showing some light to the blinds on this thread.

    Al
    Thanks. But as I posted above I may be more naive about this than I ever knew.

    I'm still digging around for more evidence of abuse but I have to tell you - it would not surprise me to find that large corporations (the same one's that have Cayman island holding companies as tax shelters) are exploiting the H1B program for the worst of intentions.
  2.    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I'll have to watch it. I am speaking from my own personal vantage point as an employer and I can tell you my company does no such thing. The video sounds deplorable though.

    Now aside from the dirt bags in this video, is there any other evidence of the increased rate of companies willfully exploiting the H1B program and filling lower level high-tech jobs? Anthing about the shortage of qualified people for lower level high-tech jobs? I'm not being pissy about it...I really want to know. I may be pretty naive about this whole thing after all.

    I suppose it all may depend on the tech sector too. I mean there is still a bevy of IT people out there since the crash of the internet hay days and Y2K behind us. But there are others where it is just plain hard to find any qualified personnel. Semiconductors being one of them.
    Yes, please do watch it as it is the point of the thread.

    Here's an article which shows that The H-1B Prevailing Wage is Substantially Below the Median Wage of U.S. Workers. It's sort of like outsourcing but you keep the synergy.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHAnderson View Post
    For full disclosure, I have been a Software Engineering Manager and Director of Product Development in past jobs. I have over 20 years in the software industry. I also have hired employees and helped them get H1B's and I have had to fire some employees with H1B's. All of the H1B hiring was prior to the .com bust when there was an actual labor shortage for qualified software engineers.

    While I have always practiced equal pay and benefits, I know of at least one large company that provides working conditions that I mentioned.

    I do not hate immigrants, and favor fair and equal treatment for everyone. What I do not support is a wholesale increase of H1B Visas with out any real documentation of the need, or companies that make money out of exploiting the H1B Visa program.

    - Dave
    Thanks Dave. I sort of figured you may be in the IT space (I was too prior to getting into semiconductors and manufacturing). So at least now I understand where you are coming from better. Again, I don't see it in my company but I am in a different industry and perhaps have been using the system for it's intended purpose.
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    OK, so you are basing all your arguments on a video? Dude, did you ever work on a research at school? If you want to learn the true facts you need to first find a reputable source, then a second and a third. After that, if you still think that video is the real deal then you need to do more research. I've done my homework on this subject and I can tell you that you do not know what you are saying.

    Al
    Again, I work in the tech industry so see this first hand. If you would like to educate yourself on this issue, start here.
  5. #25  
    moderateinny,

    Thank you for you apology.

    As I mentioned in my most recent post, I too used the program as it was intended. That is perhaps why I dislike those who abuse it so much.

    - Dave
  6.    #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Hmmm...I think perhaps I owe DHAnderson an apology. http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html

    I guess I've used the system as it was intended to be used so to your post to be offensive. But it does sound like there may be others that are abusing it and you could be right. What a shame.
    EXACTLY! No offense at those that use the program appropriately. But like every other thing corporate america touches, they find a way to abuse it.
  7. #27  
    Well in defense of some companies that use the H1B program, it isn't always feasable to train and promote within. The market just moves too fast and having to await a US worker who is being trained on the job may well cost you much more than salary differences (although I don't pay my H1Bs any less than my US engineers) - it literally could cost the company to miss their mass production target date, which could have a devasting/cascading affect that costs the company far more than salary differences.

    The point is - if I cannot find qualified US engineers then I turn to other means of filling that skill set(s) I need. And lets be honest....US students aren't beating the doors down at colleges to become engineers or take any more math classes than they need to in order to graduate.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Hmmm...I think perhaps I owe DHAnderson an apology. http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html

    I guess I've used the system as it was intended to be used so to your post to be offensive. But it does sound like there may be others that are abusing it and you could be right. What a shame.
    It is a shame that some Americans (this is ironic) are abusing the law (doing something illegal) hiring legal immigrants at a lower wage. But, let's be clear on this matter. Just because some employers are abusing the law it doesn't mean that all employers are doing it. The same goes to it doesn't mean that because some people don't pay taxes nobody does it. I do and most likely you do so let's not put all immigrants on the same bag. Or are you going to start saying now that because some Islamic people are terrorist, all of them are? Which is not true at all.

    Al
  9. #29  
    Perhaps massive off shoring of software development jobs and abuse of H1B visa programs might be two reasons why students aren't beating the door down to become engineers.

    - Dave
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHAnderson View Post
    Perhaps massive off shoring of software development jobs and abuse of H1B visa programs might be two reasons why students aren't beating the door down to become engineers.

    - Dave
    Actually I believe it is because more than half of US students don't move on to advanced math classes beyond the 8th grade so engineering becomes a real stretch. We are not without blame when it comes to the need to import talent IMO.

    But you know what? You and I are continuing to discuss this from two different vantage points - you could be right about software (although I seriously doubt more than 1 out of 1000 US college students would even know what H1Bs are) and I think I know what I am talking about in the semiconductor space.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    I do and most likely you do so let's not put all immigrants on the same bag.
    I don't think we're putting immigrants in any bag - we're discussing US employers who willfully exploit a well intentioned program (H1Bs).

    I see what you are saying and you are correct - one should not watch this video and jump to the conclusion that ALL companies that use H1Bs are doing so maliciously. But I think there may be some merit to a potential trend to abuse the H1B visa program and I am open to that possibility given the amount of corporate greed we see around us today.
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHAnderson View Post
    Perhaps massive off shoring of software development jobs and abuse of H1B visa programs might be two reasons why students aren't beating the door down to become engineers.

    - Dave
    LOL That is the lamest excuse to justify laziness. I might just give up on life then because sooner or later I'm just gonna die anyway. Dude, I was not the smartest student in college and I struggled through some hard math classes and after many hours of studying and saying no to chicks and parties I was able to graduate and I'm doing fine now. I could have gone the easy route and become a shoe salesman (Al Bundy ) but I wanted to be someone better than Al Bundy

    Al
  13. #33  
    Al,

    I do not think avoiding jobs that are easily out-sourceable is lazy. Perhaps you have not read The World is Flat.
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by DHAnderson View Post
    Al,

    I do not think avoiding jobs that are easily out-sourceable is lazy. Perhaps you have not read The World is Flat.
    Well, it depends on how you pick your career. If you want to study something because of the money and statistics of easily out-sourceable jobs then you could be right. But if you pick a career based on what you really like then it doesn't matter what the statics say you just go for it. So, let's not panic here and think that Americans are losing job opportunities because there are plenty of places to work if you are qualified. If we need to worry about something, let's worry about global warming.

    Al
  15.    #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    It is a shame that some Americans (this is ironic) are abusing the law (doing something illegal) hiring legal immigrants at a lower wage. But, let's be clear on this matter. Just because some employers are abusing the law it doesn't mean that all employers are doing it. The same goes to it doesn't mean that because some people don't pay taxes nobody does it. I do and most likely you do so let's not put all immigrants on the same bag. Or are you going to start saying now that because some Islamic people are terrorist, all of them are? Which is not true at all.

    Al
    This, and what I think you are referring to as in the illegal immigration issue, are LABOR issues. The H1B visa program is being utilized to get the cheapest high-tech labor available regardless of the effect to the US worker, as is the attempt to flood the US with cheap service industry labor.

    The American working class is suffering. Let's not add to that.
  16.    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Actually I believe it is because more than half of US students don't move on to advanced math classes beyond the 8th grade so engineering becomes a real stretch. We are not without blame when it comes to the need to import talent IMO.
    I agree with this and the SERIOUS lack of second language teaching in US schools.
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    ....saying no to chicks....
    Apparently from your avatar you eventually said yes.

  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Apparently from your avatar you eventually said yes.

    Was it necessary to post the same thing over and over and over? Yes, I had my first son once I got a job after college.

    Al
    Last edited by TreoRock; 06/25/2007 at 09:35 AM.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Treolo View Post
    daThomas, You are not reading the true facts on this thread. You are just justifying the arguments from people who have no clue who a H1b worker is. In fact, you might have seen many of these workers and never even realized they were legal immigrants and confused them by Americans, because they are highly educated professionals who pay taxes, insurance, drive legally and contribute to the development of this great country. If you are looking for people to hate you are messing with the wrong people. Try hating those who rape, kill and waste our tax money on drugs and other crap.

    Al
    I'd say you're the one who has no clue. No personal insult intended, but have you ever worked closely with the program? I worked as a consultant with INS (before they got merged into DHS) and DHS (after the merger), and I've worked with companies that hired H1Bs.

    A couple of facts: Companies are hiring programmers with 3 to 4 years of experience under the H1B program. These are NOT the highly skilled, hard to find experts the program was intended to allow.

    H1B jobs are NOT always terribly easy to find. This does make it hard for an H1B visa holder to change jobs. If I get p.o.'d at my boss and quit, I can take any job available. And, if I don't find something for a few months, the only impact to me is financial. An H1B worker has a much smaller pool of openings to find (especially if one really does possess a rare skill--there are only limited jobs for rocket scientists, for example) and can't risk being unemployed for several months: that's a ticket back home.

    So ask yourself, if an employer is using the H1B program to hire a C programmer, when there's no real shortage of American C programmers, why do they go through the hassle and paperwork to do so? Simple: in spite of what the law says, H1B visa holders can be hired for less money, can be given smaller raises, generallly won't complain about long hours (with no overtime pay, since by definition H1B employees are exempt), and are far less likely to leave for another job. There's no enforcement by DHS to ensure that H1B workers are paid the same wages and treated the same as other employees, because DHS has far bigger problems to worry about.

    Companies do hire H1B's, in some cases, because it's the only way to get specialized skills. Unfortunately, they also hire H1B's because it's a way to get cheap labor with a low turnover rate. There's plenty of evidence that American companies would rather hire a foreign worker than train someone they already have on board.

    Just to be clear, this is not intended as an indictment of the foreign workers here on H1b's. It's intended as criticism of the companies that abuse the program, and the Congress that allows it to happen by continually expanding the quota.

    Personally, based on what I've seen, I think the number of H1B visa's allowed each year should be cut in half, and restricted to workers with salaries above $100,000 per year. That would truly limit the program to highly skilled, hard to fill positions requiring special expertise, and force companies to train the people they have on board instead of importing cheap labor from abroad.

    But money talks, and Microsoft and other big tech companies give plenty of it to Congressional PACs, so don't expect the quotas to go anywhere but up.

    Oh, and just to be clear, no one with an H1B visa is an immigrant. An immigrant is someone with permanent resident status, and those people have a legal right to work, at any job, without an H1B visa. An H1B is one of several types of temporary work permits, along with H2B (typically agricultural workers), and a number of others.
    Last edited by meyerweb; 06/25/2007 at 07:41 AM.
    Bob Meyer
    I'm out of my mind. But feel free to leave a message.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by meyerweb View Post
    I'd say you're the one who has no clue. No personal insult intended, but have you ever worked closely with the program? I worked as a consultant with INS (before they got merged into DHS) and DHS (after the merger), and I've worked with companies that hired H1Bs.

    A couple of facts: Companies are hiring programmers with 3 to 4 years of experience under the H1B program. These are NOT the highly skilled, hard to find experts the program was intended to allow.

    H1B jobs are NOT always terribly easy to find. This does make it hard for an H1B visa holder to change jobs. If I get p.o.'d at my boss and quit, I can take any job available. And, if I don't find something for a few months, the only impact to me is financial. An H1B worker has a much smaller pool of openings to find (especially if one really does possess a rare skill--there are only limited jobs for rocket scientists, for example) and can't risk being unemployed for several months: that's a ticket back home.

    So ask yourself, if an employer is using the H1B program to hire a C programmer, when there's no real shortage of American C programmers, why do they go through the hassle and paperwork to do so? Simple: in spite of what the law says, H1B visa holders can be hired for less money, can be given smaller raises, generallly won't complain about long hours (with no overtime pay, since by definition H1B employees are exempt), and are far less likely to leave for another job. There's no enforcement by DHS to ensure that H1B workers are paid the same wages and treated the same as other employees, because DHS has far bigger problems to worry about.

    Companies do hire H1B's, in some cases, because it's the only way to get specialized skills. Unfortunately, they also hire H1B's because it's a way to get cheap labor with a low turnover rate. There's plenty of evidence that American companies would rather hire a foreign worker than train someone they already have on board.

    Just to be clear, this is not intended as an indictment of the foreign workers here on H1b's. It's intended as criticism of the companies that abuse the program, and the Congress that allows it to happen by continually expanding the quota.

    Personally, based on what I've seen, I think the number of H1B visa's allowed each year should be cut in half, and restricted to workers with salaries above $100,000 per year. That would truly limit the program to highly skilled, hard to fill positions requiring special expertise, and force companies to train the people they have on board instead of importing cheap labor from abroad.

    But money talks, and Microsoft and other big tech companies give plenty of it to Congressional PACs, so don't expect the quotas to go anywhere but up.

    Oh, and just to be clear, no one with an H1B visa is an immigrant. An immigrant is someone with permanent resident status, and those people have a legal right to work, at any job, without an H1B visa. An H1B is one of several types of temporary work permits, along with H2B (typically agricultural workers), and a number of others.
    Great post. I agree that the program should be revised to ensure H1B slots are used for highly-skilled and higher-wage postitions that cannot be filled otherwise. I am not sure about quota limitations though just because I know how hard it can be to find a guy with CMOS expertise (for instance) so perhaps the areas in which H1Bs can be hired needs to be narrowed, but limiting the quota with a broad stroked approach won't work either.

    As far as training from within - I always invest in my employees if they invest in themselves (put forth the effort and demonstrate a propensity to learn and apply what they learn) but I also think there are those that are living in the days of retiring with a nice fat pension from IBM when we say that stuff. I mean the global economy has changed everything - blue collar and white collar alike. Things move faster than they ever have so if you want to stay in business in this country you need to find a way to do business in this new global economy and one way to do that is to build a highly-skilled and dynamic work force. Maybe you could get away with always promoting internally and training from within back in the old days but in the new global economy if you need to find skills and find them fast you don't always have time to train somebody from within.

    Whether or not Indians and Asian workers come here and work under H1B has a far smaller impact on our economy than the simple fact that there are millions of them working for a fraction of the cost of the average American over in their own countries. We can and should pressure the Chinese to properly value their currency and find ways to improve the trade imbalance and that will help our workers more so than revising the H1B visa program IMO...at least shorter term. But we need to face reality as well...America is being knocked down to size and we all need to recognize that global economic parity is happening and it will have a lasting effect on how we live.

    Finally, I cannot overstate how much we need to invest in education in this country. We should demand improvements to the education system and as business leaders find ways to reach into the education system to encourage more math and sciences and build the skills necessary to compete in this new economy.
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