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  1. #21  
    OP- great avatar. I've loved that black dragon pic for years.

    About the topic at hand- I combine all three. I have my very own, highly unique beliefs.
    I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance by fleeing the scene of the accident!
  2. #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by duanedude1 View Post
    We can be sure about that because different scientists have mutually exclusive explanations about how/why things work the way they do
    Name examples for this - significant stuff, not minor details of current work in progress. Self-declared and isolated fringe "scientists" don't count as examples.
    Of course our scientific friends here will now think (but not admit) that of course THEIR science IS in fact reliable...
    There is only one science, not several. Of course there are different views, disputes and discussions about new issues and hypotheses, but not different sciences. Obviously this is not the case for religions.
    Last edited by clulup; 06/18/2007 at 02:32 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    Of Religion, Philosophy and Science; Which of the 3, gives us a more complete and reliable explanation of Life?

    Another debate with my better half yesterday. She sided with Religion, I sided with Science. To me Religion and Philosophy are about the same. Science at least tries to use a system.
    It would be helpful to me to understand what is meant by the term "Life." It would likewise be helpful for to understand what is being sought in the "explanation."

    I suspect all 3 share a fundamental conclusion that "Life" exists. It seems "religion" is interested primarily in the why of Life. It seems "philosophy" is interested primarily in the what of Life. It seems "science" is interested primarily in the how of Life.

    All 3 areas of study seem worthy of pursuit.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post

    All 3 areas of study seem worthy of pursuit.
    Well said...
    at&t iPhone3G
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    It seems "religion" is interested primarily in the why of Life.
    So what are, according to your religion, the three most important reasons why we live?
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    So what are, according to your religion, the three most important reasons why we live?
    I'll need to adjust the question as I am in the process of discovering what, if anything, my "religion" is. One of Y'shua's disciples (who also happened to be His brother) defined pure religion as looking after the fatherless and the widows, and keeping unspotted from the world. That is a far simpler characterization that the systems of practices and procedures to which I have been accustomed.

    But, though I have yet to settle on an appropriate label (I likely will avoid all such labels), here is what I believe:

    There is a "God". The character of "God" is described in the text of the Bible (not exclusively, but most comprehensively). The text of the Bible also contains guidance for living (again, not exclusively, but most comprehensively), including the context for such (i.e. why we live). Namely,

    1. We exist for "God"'s pleasure (fulfillment of intent, not sensual delight) - Revelation 4:11

    2. A key aspect of that intent is the display of His grace - Ephesians 2:4-7

    3. The entirety of our responsibility is to Fear (reverence) "God" and keep His commandments - Ecclesiastes 12:13
  7. #27  
    Glorify GOD.
  8. #28  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    1. We exist for "God"'s pleasure (fulfillment of intent, not sensual delight) - Revelation 4:11
    Your god was bored so he created us as his pets?
    2. A key aspect of that intent is the display of His grace - Ephesians 2:4-7
    In a bit more modern terms: Does that mean your god wants to show off how cool he is and needs us as his admirers? Oh, big god, you are so cool, you are really the greatest, really incredibly super-powerful, we know that, please be nice to us, now that we once again have told you how wonderfully superb you are.... My view is only a god with a weak ego needs or asks for constant reverence and admiration. I mean, my kids depend on me, too, but do I expect constant praise from them such as your god? Seems to be a weird trait in your gods character.
    3. The entirety of our responsibility is to Fear (reverence) "God" and keep His commandments - Ecclesiastes 12:13
    He created us so that we fear him and stick to his rules?

    I don't find those answers to the "why" of our existence compelling in any way. Not convincing at all. Any other religions with more satisfactory answers to why we exist?



    No?


    Ok, no surprise there...
    Last edited by clulup; 06/22/2007 at 03:55 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  9. #29  
    "Pets" speaks more to sensual delight than fulfillment of intent. In terms of intent, I would use the term "friends" (and I would drop the categorization of "boredom").

    Regarding, reverence and adoration, think more in terms of how the tree "feels" about the soil. It in no way diminishes the tree to express its reliance on the soil. Likewise, it is in no way a frailty of the soil to keep the tree aware of that dependence. In fact, in terms of longevitiy, it is in the tree's interest to be reminded of its reliance on the soil.

    It only becomes a matter of concern if the tree comes to resent that dependence.
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    "Pets" speaks more to sensual delight than fulfillment of intent. In terms of intent, I would use the term "friends" (and I would drop the categorization of "boredom").
    Friends is among equals. God vs. man, according to your description/the bible, is master-pet. A master that obviously calls for constant adoration and praise.
    Regarding, reverence and adoration, think more in terms of how the tree "feels" about the soil.
    The tree doesn't think nor feel, neither does the soil. You present a strange analogy. Probably one would notice it doesn't work if you tell the story with humans or parents and kids?
    It in no way diminishes the tree to express its reliance on the soil.
    You depend on oxygen, but you still don't praise the air, nor does the air expect you to. My kids depend on me, but I don't expect them to praise me. If they grow up and don't respect me, then I did something wrong in my education. Only people and gods with weak egos depend on constant praise and reverance. I would even consider it vain for a creator to create somebody/something only to praise the creator. Your god seems to suffer from vanity, if I may say so.
    Last edited by clulup; 06/22/2007 at 11:09 AM.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    Friends is among equals.
    Not sure what you mean by equals. But, it's worth noting that the description does offer that Man is made in "God's" image and likeness, and is given dominion. Likewise, in partaking of the fruit of the tree, it was observed that Man had become "as one of us" (KJV)
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    The tree doesn't think nor feel, neither does the soil. You present a strange analogy.
    Despite recognizing it as an analogy, your critique focuses on the short-comings of the analogy rather the message, that calling attention to dependence reveals nothing about the characer of the dependent or the one on whom the other depends.

    Let's apply that to the parent/Child relationship. Calling your children's attention to their dependence on you does not necessarily reveal anything about you except for your accurate analysis of the situation. Teaching your children to related to you in a way that allows them to experience that on which they are dependent shows a concern for their well-being.

    Sometimes, amongst teen-agers in particular, peers tease the boy or girl who recognizes their dependence on the parent. They may even ridicule, suggesting that the parent is taking advantage of the child by re-enforcing the dependence. However, the teen who prematurely tastes of independence will soon realize that any "benefit" the parent appears to derive from the relationship need not be weighed against the obvious value the child derives.
  12. #32  
    OK. That's enough about Shop's Christian god. What about my Hindu god?

    Which (amongst 100's of) Hindu god would you like to discuss?
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
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  13. #33  
    The point in the above post was that it is impossible to discuss religion in a rational manner. Shop can only speak of his god, no one else's.

    Imagine what it would be like if every science textbook said something different with no way to prove any of them correct <shudder>.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  14. #34  
    I don't get the tree/soil thing either since that is mutualism by its very definition - then again, perhaps your god needs you as much as you need it?

    The parent/child relationship seems to be a better explanation to me at least - but maybe that is because I was raised to believe we are all god's "children". I don't seek my child's adoration in a god-like way - but do expect they respect my wife and I and do remind them from time to time whose roof they live under.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Let's apply that to the parent/Child relationship. Calling your children's attention to their dependence on you does not necessarily reveal anything about you except for your accurate analysis of the situation.
    I've asked you why we live according to your religion. Your answer was:
    1. We exist for "God"'s pleasure (fulfillment of intent, not sensual delight) - Revelation 4:11

    2. A key aspect of that intent is the display of His grace - Ephesians 2:4-7

    3. The entirety of our responsibility is to Fear (reverence) "God" and keep His commandments - Ecclesiastes 12:13
    The parent/child analogy makes us think of e.g. a boy who asks his father why he created him. The answers of the father then are:

    - For my pleasure (not sensual delight though)
    - For the display of my grace
    - So that you fear me and keep my commandments

    Personally, I would find a parent who has children for those reasons a total weirdo. I don't find those answers to the "why" of our life rewarding or convincing in any way. To the contrary, they are weird and selfish.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup View Post
    ...I don't find those answers to the "why" of our life rewarding or convincing in any way....
    Understood.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    I don't find those answers to the "why" of our life rewarding or convincing in any way...
    My earlier reply derived form an unwarranted and unproductive defensive posture. Having read your comments more objectively, I agree my answer wwas not particularly convinving.

    I think that's because my response was, at best, from the perspective of the Creator, not the created. From the perspective of the created, I look to Genesis 1, wherein we see Man given the assignment to exercise stewardship over the Earth--maximizing its productivity and ours.

    That is more aptly the why. My initial reply provides the context in which we are to carry-out our assignmment.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    My earlier reply derived form an unwarranted and unproductive defensive posture. Having read your comments more objectively, I agree my answer wwas not particularly convinving.

    I think that's because my response was, at best, from the perspective of the Creator, not the created. From the perspective of the created, I look to Genesis 1, wherein we see Man given the assignment to exercise stewardship over the Earth--maximizing its productivity and ours.
    Humanity was rather helpless regarding "maximizing productivity" before the method of science was invented and applied. The teachings of religion are useless when it comes to the practical ways of making a living, certainly when compared to science. So if you are right and our life is about "man given the assignment to exercise stewardship over the Earth--maximizing its productivity and ours", then we should follow science and forget creationism's outdate beliefs - maybe I should say some Americans should, because just about everybody outside of the US already has...
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by clulup
    ...The teachings of religion are useless when it comes to the practical ways of making a living, certainly when compared to science....
    Hmmm.

    What is meant by practical? In general, our (humanity) needs have been consistent, if not constant--food, clothing, shelter. The Biblical text is sufficient for those areas. "Science" has enabled us to hasten the processes, but the outcomes are the same. A possible fourth category is health/well-being. Science has made HUGE contributions in this area (of course, much of the advances serve only to counteract conditions that could be avoided via a biblical lifestyle -- whole grain based diet, hard work, rest, love for YHWH, love for each other, forgiveness).

    Without putting down science, I do question the value of a lot of what we can now do. We can do things faster--but instead of relishing the time saved we now are expected to do more in less time. We can kill more efficiently.
    We can steal more efficiently.
    We have many more ways to not rest.
    We have many substitutes for good old fashioned parental responsibility (love, training).
    We have many ways to override the inherent effects of sexual diversity.

    So yes, practically speaking, science has contributed much. But have we really improved the quality of life over what is available in the realm of religion?

    Note: I still believe science is a worthwhile area of pursuit. I just get concerned about the direction.
  20. #40  
    One benefit of "science I greatly appreciate is the technology that has enabled me to interact with the membrs of this community. As a direct result of my interactions here, my sense of who and what I am has much greater clarity. Granted, I'm still a part of the "irrational" bunch, but myrationale for such is more clearly defined.
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