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  1.    #1  
    We discussed the original draft of this bill when it was proposed back in 2005. Many of us here at TC from opposite ends of the political spectrum came to agree and support many of it's points ( http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...ad.php?t=91053 ) . While many things have made it through the closed door negotiations between the Reps, Dems, and the White House.....many other things have changed, been deleted, added, etc....

    Since the details are still coming out, I haven't had a chance to look closely at it yet. My first impression is one of an obvious compromise on all sides. I would personally like the border security part of this to be a lot stronger (both for illegal immigration concerns and for national security concerns). Apparently the policy is going to change from the current catch and release to a cath and hold for those caught trying to cross the border....I assume this results in deportation. I think that when it is all said and done there still an amnesty outcome involved with it as it stands now. I can see a lot of the worker program stronger points made it through. I like the idea of ranking by skills when evaluating participants for the worker program. I am not sure what the details are with the tamper proof verification system, but it should be a large step in the right direction. The worker program which gives individuals two tours of duty with a year apart is one that I think I like as it will get them in the system, paying taxes, etc...

    Some of the things that I don't think this bill addresses or I haven't seen how it deals with it yet.....
    • The infamous "Anchor Baby" issue.
    • Illegal immigrants and those participating in the worker program that commit violent crimes and/or felonies (deported?).
    • Insurance requirements (health, auto, etc...)
    • Sanctuary cities.
    • Even though it rates them higher to be able to speak English I don't think any time tables for being able to speak English is addressed.
    • I haven't seen penalties for overstaying the worker program.
    • Criminal background check and validated identity verification.
    • What happens if a current illegal alien cannot pay the $5,000 fine for breakin the law when coming here?
    • Increased enforcement and penalties of businesses who employ illegal aliens.


    Bipartisan Immigration Deal Reached
    White House Reaches Agreement With Bipartisan Group Of Senators On Overhaul

    (CBS/AP) Key senators in both parties and the White House announced agreement Thursday on an immigration overhaul that would grant quick legal status to millions of illegal immigrants already in the U.S. and fortify the border.

    The plan would create a temporary worker program to bring new arrivals to the U.S. A separate program would cover agricultural workers. New high-tech enforcement measures also would be instituted to verify that workers are here legally.

    -----------------

    The key breakthrough came when negotiators struck a bargain on a so-called "point system" that would for the first time prioritize immigrants' education and skill level over family connections in deciding how to award green cards.

    The draft bill "gives a path out of the shadows and toward legal status for those who are currently here" illegally, said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.

    The immigration issue also divides both parties in the House, which isn't expected to act unless the Senate passes a bill first.

    The proposed agreement would allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a "Z visa" and — after paying fees and a $5,000 fine — ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first.

    They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.

    A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called "triggers" had been activated.

    Those workers would have to return home after work stints of two years, with little opportunity to gain permanent legal status or ever become U.S. citizens. They could renew their guest worker visas twice, but would be required to leave for a year in between each time.

    Democrats had pressed instead for guest workers to be permitted to stay and work indefinitely in the U.S.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2821964.shtml
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/17/2007 at 08:01 PM.
  2.    #2  
    Here is some of the head liner politician's reactions to this bill as it prepares to go to the Senate next week for debate and maybe a vote:

    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/18/2007 at 11:14 AM.
  3.    #3  
    Here is an article about the Mexican point of views:

    Mexicans Fear U.S. Immigration Plan
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Here is an article about the Mexican point of views:

    Mexicans Fear U.S. Immigration Plan
    Regardless of whether you think its good or bad, "Oderint dum metuant" seems to be the predominant foreign policy theme nowadays.
  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    "Oderint dum metuant"
    Droppin' the Caligula bombs....nicely done.
  6.    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    Regardless of whether you think its good or bad, "Oderint dum metuant" seems to be the predominant foreign policy theme nowadays.
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Droppin' the Caligula bombs....nicely done.
    So specifically what points of fear does this bill strive to involk? Or is this all about hate? If so, is the hate bipartison, or along party lines? Bottom line......is there any reason to be concerned about people entering and living in our country illegally?
  7. #7  
    We already have a means by which visitors can gain entry, residence, employment, and/or citizenship in this country. This bill is not about immigration. It is a means by which a national identification program can be implemented. It provides for a mechanism by which all of us can be tracked. (And, it demonstrates one means by which the prediction that 'one will not be able to buy or sell without the mark' can come to fruition.)
  8.    #8  
    Do you think the current system is working to address the issues of illegal aliens? I understand what you are referring to, but do you feel there are serious issues effecting our country with illegal immigration? If so, how should it be addressed then.
  9. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    We already have a means by which visitors can gain entry, residence, employment, and/or citizenship in this country. This bill is not about immigration.

    Exactly! However, it's not so much about a chip in your pocket as it is about keeping labor costs low. Certain industries simply cannot send their tasks overseas. Thus they want to bring as much cheap labor here as they can, reducing what one's labor can be valued at.
  10.    #10  
    Is bringing workers over the border illegally the solution for cheap labor? If so, does that out weigh to costs on our schools, hospitals, jails, etc... If not, how else should we bring the work force over here legally?
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    We already have a means by which visitors can gain entry, residence, employment, and/or citizenship in this country. This bill is not about immigration. It is a means by which a national identification program can be implemented. It provides for a mechanism by which all of us can be tracked. (And, it demonstrates one means by which the prediction that 'one will not be able to buy or sell without the mark' can come to fruition.)

    The government can already track us by the flouride that they put in our water.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    So specifically what points of fear does this bill strive to involk? Or is this all about hate? If so, is the hate bipartison, or along party lines? Bottom line......is there any reason to be concerned about people entering and living in our country illegally?
    Your article "Mexicans fear US policy" was just one example of our oderint dum metuant foreign policy over the past several years. If you do not see how much hate and fear is being generated by our policies across the world, over the last few years, then there is no point in my explaining it further. Just consider it my biased opinion. This is an issue that is much more broad than immigration, so I apologize for sidetracking your focus on immigration alone, just chalk it up to my self admitted complaining.

    As far as immigration, I neither fear nor hate mexicans, I actually welcome ways to help them pay taxes and not suffer exploitation. They are not a bunch of drug runners or smugglers, like some wish us to believe but mostly a hard working group who is eager to contribute to our society given the chance. I do not begrudge providing education to their children and if they were working legally with health insurance instead of getting underpaid illegally, I would not have to begrudge providing them medical care either.

    So, like you, there are things which I agree with in this bill and things which I disagree with. That is not suprising as its a compromise bill. The part I do not like is that the worker program gives little or no chance to work towards gaining residency or getting citizenship. Why should mexicans just be guest workers, while people from more affluent countires are able to use their working status in the US towards getting permanent residency or citizenship? That does not make sense to me.
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Is bringing workers over the border illegally the solution for cheap labor? If so, does that out weigh to costs on our schools, hospitals, jails, etc... If not, how else should we bring the work force over here legally?
    I don't want a solution for cheap labor.

    The general taxpaying pool will pay the increased costs for illegal labor. NOT the business owners who knowingly employ them.

    I don't want workers brought over here legally. If we're going to play the game of capitalism then labor has a value and when it's in demand it costs more. Stop letting businesses cheat.
  14.    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by cellmatrix View Post
    The part I do not like is that the worker program gives little or no chance to work towards gaining residency or getting citizenship. Why should mexicans just be guest workers, while people from more affluent countires are able to use their working status in the US towards getting permanent residency or citizenship? That does not make sense to me.
    It does.....those who have already come here illegally will have a direct path to citizenship.....that is a HUGE window for anywhere from 10 to 20 million people to gain citizenship without forcing their whole families to leave the country and go through the normal channels of immigrations. Not a number of legalizing immigrants to shrug off, as in reality it is amnesty through a systematic process.

    This does not limit the legal process to become a legal immigrant. In fact I would imagine this could them up to 4 years of working here in the United States while going through that process, an opportunity they may not have had before.
  15. #15  
    I'm with dathomas on this. Fine business heavily for each and every illegal immigrant employed.

    end of story.

    THAT should put a stop in this valve.
  16.    #16  
    I don't disagree with that and have stated that as an excellent part of the solution several times in the past here in the forums...... But there is NO will to tighten the laws needed for that and NO will to enforce it. I have seen several Rep who have stated their support of this. I have seen a few Rep who wouldn't commit to it. And I haven't seen any Dems that I can think of that has supported this and been willing to move with it.
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I don't disagree with that and have stated that as an excellent part of the solution several times in the past here in the forums...... But there is NO will to tighten the laws needed for that and NO will to enforce it. I have seen several Rep who have stated their support of this. I have seen a few Rep who wouldn't commit to it. And I haven't seen any Dems that I can think of that has supported this and been willing to move with it.
    Actually I think BOTH parties are split on this as their are Labor Dems that oppose the labor flood and Bleeding Heart Dems that think sure, the more the merrier. Pro Biz Repubs that want the cheap labor and xenophobe Repubs that just don't want immigrants.
  18.    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Actually I think BOTH parties are split on this as their are Labor Dems that oppose the labor flood and Bleeding Heart Dems that think sure, the more the merrier.
    Being election hoopla has already arrived....do you know of any references of Dems who support cracking down hard on businesses with more and tighter penalties with the desire to enforce them? Without recalling anything specific from memory....maybe Lieberman....but I cannot ever remember hearing a Dem supporting this with any attempt at action to back it up. I did a quick Google and couldn't find anything. Do you know of any sources, as I would really be interested in knowing if they are someone with any swing in the Dem party.

    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Pro Biz Repubs that want the cheap labor and xenophobe Repubs that just don't want (*) immigrants.
    From most of the statements and comments I have ever read, I cannot recall any Rep who isn't for immigration, but is against *ILLEGAL immigration......there is certainly a HUGE difference between the two and are not interchangeable.
  19. #19  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    It does.....those who have already come here illegally will have a direct path to citizenship.....that is a HUGE window for anywhere from 10 to 20 million people to gain citizenship without forcing their whole families to leave the country and go through the normal channels of immigrations. Not a number of legalizing immigrants to shrug off, as in reality it is amnesty through a systematic process.

    This does not limit the legal process to become a legal immigrant. In fact I would imagine this could them up to 4 years of working here in the United States while going through that process, an opportunity they may not have had before.
    thanks for clarifying that.
  20. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I don't want workers brought over here legally
    I disagree, there are a lot of talent out there in the world, especially in the technology areas. Given the choice of an eager intelligent and ambitious immigrant versus an umotivated lazy US citizen with a sense of entitlement, I would choose the former every time, pay them well and help them to get their green card. Its worth it and it helps, not hurts our economy and our country.
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Stop letting businesses cheat.
    agree there completely and have said the same many times.
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