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  1. backbeat's Avatar
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    #21  
    I'm new to this, so can someone noteworthy please provide assistance?

    I seem to have attracted my own pet troll. What do they eat? How long do they live? Should it be kept in a cage or aquarium?

    Last edited by backbeat; 05/10/2007 at 10:13 AM.
  2. TomUps's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    I'm new to this, so can someone noteworthy please provide assistance?

    I seem to have attracted my own pet troll. What do they eat? How long do they live? Should it be kept in a cage or aquarium?


    Sorry, but you make outrageous statements. Is it to hard to assume that they should be based on facts?
  3. backbeat's Avatar
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    #23  
    Much of our nation's history isn't openly taught [for political PRPRPR $reasons$] $and$ $requires$ $a$ $personal$ $investment$ $of$ $time$ $and$ $resources$. $Those$ '$outragious$ $statements$' $you$ $refer$ $to$ $are$ $a$ $reflection$ $of$ $outragious$ $acts$. $I$ $have$ $no$ $need$ $to$ $manufacture$ $lies$ $when$ $the$ [$outragious$] $truth$ $is$ $quite$ $enough$.
  4. #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    I'm new to this, so can someone noteworthy please provide assistance?
    There has a been a strong history of some who have frequented these forums who would constantly throw out wild claims as facts, ignore and attack any who inquired on their sources with an honest effort to learn more about their claims, and then turn to personal attacks when asked for a source to learn more when they couldn't find any sources on the original poster's claims. This has historically done little but to cause contention and friction in the forums.

    Here at TC it is common (and for the most part expected) practice to provide a source for major claims. Most posters will provide a link to a news article, gov report, etc... (or least attempt to when asked if not originally sourced). This not only helps to support one's claims (and credibility), but gives others who may not be aware of certain claims a chance to learn more and understand one's point of view beyond a single poster's say so.
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by aslmentor View Post
    I can't remember but someone sent me statstics of the laws being broken by illegal immigrants and I was really shocked. It was something like 90% of crimes in southern America regions were illegals. Does anyone have any stats? (this is in relation to southern border with Mexico)
    Here is a post from awhile back talking about a bill that was being proprosed to help address the challenges with illegal aliens and border control:

    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal
    I am in total agreement with both NRG and BARYE!

    I always felt the turn of Undocumented Immigrant was a term to soften the reality of their illegal actions from crossing the border and living her outside of the system and against every immigration law on the books. If I stole a stereo system would I be thief or simply a Undocumented Stereo Owner with the legal rights to own the stereo if I got it home without getting caught? Would my actions be accountable to the law?

    I am totally for immigration, but through the due process for several reasons (most of which have already been stated):

    >> National Security, do I really need to go into details on this one? In fact for the this ONE reason alone, I feel this law is valid and would get my vote.

    >>Health Care. We pay for their care out of our taxes, driving further due to hospitals closing that can’t afford fronting the money for illegal health care, high insurance rates, etc...

    FAIR estimates "there are currently between 287,000 and 363,000 children born to illegal aliens each year. In 1994, California paid for 74,987 deliveries to illegal alien mothers, at a total cost of $215.2 million (an average of $2,842 per delivery). Illegal alien mothers accounted for 36 percent of all Medi-Cal funded births in California that year."

    In a recent year in Colorado, the state's emergency Medicaid program paid an estimated $30 million in hospital and physician delivery costs for about 6,000 illegal immigrant mothers - average of $5,000 per baby. Those 6,000 births to illegal aliens represent 40% of the births paid for by Medicaid in Colorado. Those 6,000 babies immediately became U.S. citizens and qualified for full Medicaid services, with a cost yet to be tabulated.

    The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens. Medical service for Americans in affected communities is being severely damaged as hospitals absorb more than $200 million in unreimbursed costs. Some emergency rooms have shut down because they cannot afford to stay open. Local tax-paying Americans are either denied medical care or have to wait in long lines for service as the illegals flood the facilities. In California, the losses are calculated to be about $79 million, with $74 million in Texas, $31 million in Arizona, and $6 million in New Mexico.
    http://www.theamericanresistance.com...alth_care.html

    An estimated one-third to one-half illegal aliens work off the books. It costs $200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually. California with over three million illegals paid $79 million, BUT four of their major LA hospitals bankrupted and shut their doors in 2004. Texas with 1.5 million illegal aliens paid $74 million in hospital care. Who is Texas? You, the taxpayer, that’s who! Because you, in your state, pay commensurate medical care according to your illegal alien population. Georgia ran a $63 million deficit for 64,000 unpaid doctor visits to their Grady Health Care system in 2002. In the same year, Georgia taxpayers paid $27 million for 11,188 anchor baby hospital births. Georgia taxpayers paid a whopping $242 million for educating illegal alien kids in 2003. What is it in your state?
    http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty2.htm
    >> Violent Crimes. Across the nation, it averages that 30% of all local and federal prisoners are illegal immigrants, many of which are in for violent crimes, i.e. murder, physical assault, rape, etc....

    Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

    • In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

    • A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

    • The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

    ................

    in 2000, for example, nearly 30 percent of federal prisoners were foreign-born. The agency couldn’t find enough pro bono attorneys to represent such an army of criminal aliens (who have extensive due-process rights in contesting deportation) and so would have to request delay after delay. Or enough immigration judges would not be available. In 1997, the INS simply had no record of a whopping 36 percent of foreign-born inmates who had been released from federal and four state prisons without any review of their deportability. They included 1,198 aggravated felons, 80 of whom were soon re-arrested for new crimes.
    http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_...gal_alien.html

    When an alien criminal gets caught for rape, murder or drug distribution, you pay $1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons
    >> Education.

    While these massive budget deficits cannot be attributed to any single source, the enormous impact of large-scale illegal immigration cannot be ignored. The total K-12 school expenditure for illegal immigrants costs the states nearly $12 billion annually, and when the children born here to illegal aliens are added, the costs more than double to $28.6 billion.

    .................

    In Texas, the $3.9 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants could:

    Cover more than the $2.3 billion shortfall identified by the Texas Federation for Teachers for such things as textbooks and pension contributions.
    Make Texas’ salaries for teachers more competitive by national standards, thereby reducing costly attrition, and recruit the 5,000 new teachers needed each year.

    In California, the $7.7 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants—nearly 13% of the overall 2004–5 education budget—could: ........

    In New York, the $3.1 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants could: ..........

    In Illinois, the $2 billion spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants could: .................

    ....................

    http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?nam...rticle&sid=469

    These are just a few areas of challenges we face with illegal immigrants.......PLEASE NOTE I am talking about ALL ILLEGAL Immigrants, not just from Mexico. But due our porous border, statistically a vast majority are from there. This is not racist, it is not discrimination. It is simply bringing those who want to be in our country and those who want to enjoy the opportunities our country provides accountable to our country and actually a legal part of supporting the systems and services that all Americans have an opportunity to take advantage of, ie. health care, education, transportation, law enforcement, etc...

    http://discussion.treocentral.com/sh...1&postcount=31
    Many of these stats above probably around 7 years old, so I guess that they higher now, if the trends have continued as they have up until that point.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/10/2007 at 11:14 AM.
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    The border problems span several administrations, Democrat and Republican alike. Beyond the rhetoric there has been no serious action to "secure" the borders by either party. In the face of the potential dangers facing the country, how can they not be "securing" the borders you ask...simple, corporate welfare.

    The economic welfare of America's largest corporations dictate an open border policy to allow for low cost labor to continue flowing, notwithstanding the increasing risks to the nation. Unfortunately political parties are beholden to these corporate structures that provide significant economic resources to keep them in power.
    Again....I agree lobbies and corp supported politicians come into play here.

    There is no doubt that we each benefit for illegal workers, but does it make it right? We would also benefit with lower costs if companies did not have to worry about obeying the laws to conserve and protect the environment. If they did not have worry about product safety issues and gain gov approval if needed. We could be paying less if we did not have provide extra security thieves and terrorists. We would have cheaper products if companies did not have to pay taxes (which some have been found guilty of when paying illegals under the table).

    The point is there are a lot things that we would all benefit from if companies either broke the law or disregarded the safety of the public or their customers. The question might be, why is breaking the illegal immigrant law different than any other national security law they have to abide by? Should immigration laws be exempt from prosecution if violated because it benefits the customer? If so, what other laws then can we ignore to lower the price of products and services for the American consumer?

    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    To that you have to add the considerable pandering by both political parties to the emerging voting block represented by hispanics in this country.
    I think this is a MAJOR reason why many politicians and political parties do not want to do anything about this problem.....FREE VOTES. This is a self serving motivating factor with only short sighted personal political gains while snubbing the security and benefits for the nation they claim to be serving.
  7. backbeat's Avatar
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    #27  
    Just as with other posters, when sources have been supplied, either the source itself gets irresponsibly side-swiped, receives no response which is equally irresponsible, and/or the general argument is immediately derailed into a completely different direction. There is very little genuinely innocent learning going on here on matters such as these. Adults intelligent enough to operate businesses and families are not that naive.

    No lecture is required as this pattern of human behavior in this alternate universe is nothing new.
  8. #28  
    Backbeat....do not take offense....I was not attacking. You have only been in our forums for a month and I was only replying to your asking. I was not taking sides as my post was very generalized and applies to all. I think nearly everyone that has been here awhile would support and second my post as the general flow of the culture in this forum.

    Sourcing a good practice and is highly regarded in his forum....sometimes especially if the other person is not agreeing.


    ...........and you would be surprised how often opposite sides of the fence have learned from other's points of view (highly accredited to sourcing and none attack discussions). Da, NRG, Barye, 1911, Me, etc... have all come to common grounds in political diverse discussions such as these. In fact the thread I quoted my post from above it a perfect example of this.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/10/2007 at 11:15 AM.
  9. TomUps's Avatar
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    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Just as with other posters, when sources have been supplied, either the source itself gets irresponsibly side-swiped, receives no response which is equally irresponsible, and/or the general argument is immediately derailed into a completely different direction. .
    Sorry, but thats little excuse to making things up. When you make claims like the U.S. has financial agreements with Hezbollah, or the U.S. has made payments to Bin Laden, do not be surprised if somebody questions you on these statements. The reason I did, is because they are obviously false.
  10. backbeat's Avatar
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    #30  
    My post was referring to experience within this forum.

    I never characterized your post [above] as an attack.

    Just as with the mischaracterization of name-calling you claimed I was guilty of only yesterday, when what you were referring to was clearly a characterization of conditions. Did you provide any acknowledgment? No, and thus is symptomatic of my earlier points on including a url link. Quite unfortunately, that is the status quo on internet forums. Being average isn't something to rise to.
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by TomUps View Post
    Sorry, but thats little excuse to making things up. When you make claims like the U.S. has financial agreements with Hezbollah, or the U.S. has made payments to Bin Laden, do not be surprised if somebody questions you on these statements. The reason I did, is because they are obviously false.
    Actually there is some truth to us helping a young Bin Laden:
    In January 1980, several weeks after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, bin Laden went to Peshawar, Pakistan, to join the anti-Soviet resistance movement. Although he would later participate in some battles against the Soviet-backed government of Afghanistan, bin Laden's main role was to stay behind the front lines, financing and organizing brigades of Islamic volunteers going into battle. He not only invested some of his personal financial resources to fund the combat brigades, he also received military and financial assistance from the intelligence services of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United States.

    ---------------

    Bin Laden's war against the U.S. would take the form of a prolonged terrorist campaign. In 1989, the same year that the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, bin Laden founded his international terrorist organization, Al Qaeda (The Base) to train fighters for the global jihad against America.

    ---------------

    Bin Laden continues to use his own personal fortune to finance his jihad, but he also receives financing from well-wishers in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries; another source of revenue is the international heroin trade, in which Afghanistan is one of the key players

    http://www.forbes.com/charitable/200...4whoisobl.html
    At the time, it was more support against Russia than support for any Bin Laden cause. This scenario has played out several times in history with many different nations.....the enemy of my enemy is my friend so I will support them not knowing 20 years later they would be a bigger enemy than my original enemy I support them in helping to bring down. If you are interested in seeing where the Ladin's original fortune came from, you can read about it here:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ho/family.html

    (see isn't source great! )


    Now as for our financial obligations to Hez, I don't have a clue.
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/10/2007 at 12:33 PM. Reason: added attional info in quote from the source article
  12. backbeat's Avatar
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    #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Now as for our financial obligations to Hez, I don't have a clue.
    Me neither since I never made such a statement.
  13. #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    My post was referring to experience within this forum.

    I never characterized your post [above] as an attack.

    Just as with the mischaracterization of name-calling you claimed I was guilty of only yesterday, when what you were referring to was clearly a characterization of conditions. Did you provide any acknowledgment? No, and thus is symptomatic of my earlier points on including a url link. Quite unfortunately, that is the status quo on internet forums. Being average isn't something to rise to.
    Man....I should have said, I hope my post was not taken as an attack.

    I did address my point of view in the other forum very thoroughly and didn't realize my opinion or answering every point from every poster in that thread was in question.

    I was only trying to help and even support you this thread, and I still get a personal attack!
  14. backbeat's Avatar
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    #34  
    Yet another mischaracterization or are you misunderstanding my post? I made a singular point that involved you in that post.
  15. #35  
    You're right America sucks! When will you be moving?
  16. backbeat's Avatar
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    #36  
    Why the misdirection, Hobbes?

    Wasn't that one of the 3 symptoms of the malignant disease of internet forum avoidance I mentioned earlier
  17. #37  
    Many people from both the left and the right on this forum have stated that one of the first steps to dealing with illegal immigration is to focus on validation of immigration status by the employer. Here is the first big step towards this:

    Oklahoma immigration bill casts one of the widest nets

    OKLAHOMA CITY — Oklahoma doesn't have much of a problem with illegal immigration in the grand scheme of things.

    The state's undocumented population is estimated at 75,000 or fewer, a drop in the bucket compared with the approximately 1.5 million living in neighboring Texas.

    But Oklahoma, reacting to the rapid growth of that population and fears for the future, is about to pass one of the nation's broadest state laws restricting illegal immigrants. The bill aims to cut off jobs and benefits for illegal immigrants and permit state and local law enforcement to detain them solely for their presence in the United States.

    Once the House approves revisions added by the Senate, the bill is headed for the desk of Democratic Gov. Brad Henry. Henry calls illegal immigration a federal problem but has not signaled whether he will sign or veto the bill.

    The bill's various requirements to screen workers for their immigration status would widely affect Oklahoma employers. Firing a legal employee while retaining an illegal immigrant in the same position would subject the employer to a discrimination suit by the legal employee.

    Criminal penalties

    The bill calls for criminal penalties for people who knowingly harbor or transport illegal immigrants, restricts access to identification such as driver's licenses and denies government benefits to illegal immigrants except in medical emergencies. And it expands the authority of state and local police agencies to enforce federal immigration law and deny bail to illegal immigrants arrested on felony or DWI charges.

    Full Article: http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/4738487.html
    I think that if this was to be initiated at a Federal level there would have to be a comprehensive verification system provided by the Fed gov of all people who are legal to work in the US. As a safe guard, if the person is not in the system then it shouldn't be an automatic shutout but have a procedure for the person in question to present and validate his legality of residence in this country.
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Here is a post from awhile back talking about a bill that was being proprosed to help address the challenges with illegal aliens and border control:



    Many of these stats above probably around 7 years old, so I guess that they higher now, if the trends have continued as they have up until that point.
    Bingo! thank you!! I didn't want to sound like someone here on the fourm (see above) that is saying things but has no facts to support their statements.
    Lance
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    (my avatar means "I love you" in sign language.
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  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Me neither since I never made such a statement.

    Yes you did.
    "If the US hadn't spent the past 50 years creating enemies in South America via CIA-orchestrated paramilitary coups, manipulated elections, supported complicit, brutal dictators [where have I heard that before ], Hezbollah may not have located fertile ground on which to build. That which ye sow ...
    " then you followed up with...
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TomUps
    What actions should the U.S. take responsibility for in regards to Hezbollah?

    (backbeat)
    Follow through with its financial commitments to the democratically elected government ... just for starters. We're [once again] creating enemies by taking the low road.



    If that doesn't say it, I don't know what it is. all we asked were links or facts and got smoke. Enjoy your trolling....
    Lance
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    (my avatar means "I love you" in sign language.
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  20. backbeat's Avatar
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    #40  
    Hobbes - What does it matter when there is no right to habeas corpus, whereby any person for any reason the President desires can be immediately pulled off the street, off the job, out of their home without any disclosure of charges and no access to legal counsel?
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