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  1. #61  
    I think he would be at a religious fundamentalist or at least a compassionate conservative
    luke 19:11-27
    Matt 5:17
  2. #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    With assuming firing them all and starting over is out of the picture.....Would any of these be an option:

    • No lobby money allowed to fund candidates, political parties, or campaigns of any kind. ...
    This alone would go a long way.

    However, the bigger issue is the integrity of those serving. There will always be those who offer money or other consideration attempting to procure favor. It is up to the public servants to maintain high standards of justice and judgment.
  3.    #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by perditac View Post
    I think he would be at a religious fundamentalist or at least a compassionate conservative
    luke 19:11-27
    Matt 5:17
    I'm tempted to respond to your trolling 1-post flame bait but I think I'll let the voices of more reasonable people up here stand.
  4. #64  
    However...

    How would you all propose effecting such procedural changes? Democrats...Republicans...I don't think so.

    The American public, by and large, is uninformed and apathetic about the political process. In order to change the system, first we need to get the right people elected.

    Before that, voters need education about their duties and responsibilities within the political process.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I'm tempted to respond to your trolling 1-post flame bait but I think I'll let the voices of more reasonable people up here stand.
    And that's your good deed for the day
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
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    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    This alone would go a long way.

    However, the bigger issue is the integrity of those serving. There will always be those who offer money or other consideration attempting to procure favor. It is up to the public servants to maintain high standards of justice and judgment.
    It is incumbent upon us, the voters, to secure a political system which does not encourage corruption, lies, criminal activity, favors for sale, etc. Even the noblest of those going to DC get sucked into the system because the system is broken. The system marginalizes those who do not play the lobbyist games, leaving them without the resources to be heard above the static, and therefore ineffective to their constituency.

    There will, indeed, always be those attempting to incent elected officials, but to accept this as status quo is irresponsible.
  7. #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    It is incumbent upon us, the voters, to secure a political system which does not encourage corruption, lies, criminal activity, favors for sale, etc. Even the noblest of those going to DC get sucked into the system because the system is broken. The system marginalizes those who do not play the lobbyist games, leaving them without the resources to be heard above the static, and therefore ineffective to their constituency.

    There will, indeed, always be those attempting to incent elected officials, but to accept this as status quo is irresponsible.
    Hmm. I actually agree with you.

    The problem would be where to start?

    Oh, and I don't think Christ (which actually means Messiah or Savior, and is not Jesus' last name, btw) would not be a republican.
  8. #68  
    I agree with many of the statements here.....how do you get the the ones pocketing the millions of dollars of "bribes" from the lobbies to reform the system so they cannot take the money anymore? How do you get political leaders who are among the most wealthy individuals in the nation to reform the system back to increasing the political competition by making it a more even playing field for all to participate in?

    There are two main factors:

    1) Recognizing a problem and proposing and developing solutions to fix it.
    2) Getting those in power that benefit from the corrupt system willing to reform it so they can no longer benefit from it.

    Education -- This was brought up and I agree, the American people need to understand the reality of how the system works now. The media could be a huge asset in this....but how do you get a Left leaning newsroom to report negative items on a Liberal or Dem and a Right leaning news room to report negative items on a Conservative or Rep. But if they reported on a regular basis of who is getting how much by who, along with how that elective official is voting it would be a small step towards education.

    The point is how to get enough awareness of a corrupt system with so much partisan hard line thinking that is so prevalent in our country right now. This forum is a great example of this. How many times in the gov corruption threads have we seen liberal members easily pointing out every little item the Rep have done wrong and then unwilling to recognize (or simply ignoring) that the Dems are doing the exact same thing......and the other way around....With Right members throwing accusations against the actions of the Dems without accepting accountability of the Rep party's actions.

    Nothing will happen until either the system is corrupted to a point of despair or until the public of the nation can start to think about the well being of the country first and foremost before the immediate shortsighted political cheap shot point to one up the other side of the aisle for a self centered short term goal.
  9. backbeat's Avatar
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    #69  
    Although I agree that vast education that allows individuals to understand how government directly effects their personal lives (in an unvarnished/non-partisan way), will help, it will likely only appeal to and assist those predisposed to being aware. More is spent teaching the public about driving laws than about how their government works. Why? Because the States derive millions from auto traffic, enough that budgets are based on those revenues. Investing in an education on government is an investment in our own societal infrastructure. However, this type of education does not belong at the high school level. In my estimation, it must be tied to something universal among all Americans, across economic lines, in order to be effective and deliver real results.

    The real short-term solution - Enforceable laws with razor-sharp teeth. But, again, we have the wolf guarding the henhouse.

    Hobbes, your point #2 is the barrier which cannot be surmounted in our society. It will not ever happen. There must be a line drawn that ends the gamesmanship, once and for all which will likely require a revolutionary overhaul of this government. As reactionary as our society and our government are, what do you believe would cause such effective action?
  10. #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    It is incumbent upon us, the voters, to secure a political system which does not encourage corruption, lies, criminal activity, favors for sale, etc. Even the noblest of those going to DC get sucked into the system because the system is broken. The system marginalizes those who do not play the lobbyist games, leaving them without the resources to be heard above the static, and therefore ineffective to their constituency.

    There will, indeed, always be those attempting to incent elected officials, but to accept this as status quo is irresponsible.
    We agree in principle.

    In my estimation, our political system, as defined, does not encourage corruption, lies, criminal activity, favors... It is a masterful design. However, implementation requires people (the electors and elected) who hold to the principles that underly the system.

    When the citizens believe (or are encouraged to believe) the federal government is its rich uncle (Sam?), instead of the facilitator of inter-state matters, the abuse trap is set. Add to that mix self-serving officials and the trap is sprung.

    We have shifted from being a culture of empowerment, to enablement, to entitlement.

    There will always be those seeking to incent. That is not status quo. That is the human condition. However, when the majority of society holds to a higher moral standard, those who subscribe to such measures are foiled easily.
  11. backbeat's Avatar
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    #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    We agree in principle.
    Apparently, it seems we do not.

    In my estimation, our political system, as defined, does not encourage corruption, lies, criminal activity, favors... It is a masterful design. However, implementation requires people (the electors and elected) who hold to the principles that underly the system.
    Our political system, as defined where(?), does not encourage corruption, lies, criminal activity, favors ...

    Maybe it's only semantics, but if you're referring to the organizational structure and intent of 'our political system', I understand. But, that is not the point as that is only a concept. Most government models are altruistic on paper. The machinery and the fuel which moves this government is corrupt. This nation was not conceived as a Capitalist model, as the term is used today. That is a 19th century creation. Where currency and commerce is king, deceit breeds and thrives.

    When the citizens believe (or are encouraged to believe) the federal government is its rich uncle (Sam?), instead of the facilitator of inter-state matters, the abuse trap is set. Add to that mix self-serving officials and the trap is sprung.
    Your conservative comrades are just gonna love that as they are by far the largest block, in dollars, of those awarded freebie grants. Do you believe there should not be a governmental safety net to disallow those most disadvantaged from doing without shelter, food, or clothing?

    We have shifted from being a culture of empowerment, to enablement, to entitlement.
    Is this a failure of leadership or of society?

    There will always be those seeking to incent. That is not status quo. That is the human condition.
    To be 'the human condition' implies it is pervasive throughout mankind, and is, by definition, status quo. Our Rule of Law is what separates us from the rest. An imperfect system of justice which severely needs a steel-toed boot up its a$$, but still ...

    However, when the majority of society holds to a higher moral standard, those who subscribe to such measures are foiled easily.
    Morality cannot be enforced legislatively nor should it be attempted.
  12. #72  
    Morality cannot be enforced legislatively nor should it be attempted
    Agreed.

    I only seek to establish that the question at hand is a moral one, not one of process or procedure. The change that you seek is one that must occur in the hearts of the governing and, more importantly, the governed.
  13. #73  
    You are all quite right on your generalities, however we need to focus on what we (i.e., you, me, the other guy, etc.) can do to effect these changes.

    The govenrment, as controlled by political parties, has no interest in changing the system from which they derive so much power. They will not reform the electoral system nor will they educate the voting public. The media works for rating not truth.

    The change has to come from us, the voters, one at a time...think grassroot effort.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I'm tempted to respond to your trolling 1-post flame bait but I think I'll let the voices of more reasonable people up here stand.
    If 'reasonable' is agreeing with you then count me out. Jesus may have been a liberal or progressive ahead of his time 2000 years ago but not so today.

    PS- I have participated in many discussions but according to the treocentral rules - they are not credited as 'posts'.
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    #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by perditac View Post
    If 'reasonable' is agreeing with you then count me out. Jesus may have been a liberal or progressive ahead of his time 2000 years ago but not so today.
    Care to clarify your statement and draw conclusions? Is it your contention that the Middle Eastern liberal of 2000 years ago equates to today's American conservative?
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    You are all quite right on your generalities, however we need to focus on what we (i.e., you, me, the other guy, etc.) can do to effect these changes.

    The govenrment, as controlled by political parties, has no interest in changing the system from which they derive so much power. They will not reform the electoral system nor will they educate the voting public. The media works for rating not truth.

    The change has to come from us, the voters, one at a time...think grassroot effort.
    One action is that of holding discussions like we do here. In this thread alone, we again see that we're more purple than blue or red.

    We can each encourage people to act/vote not on a single topic, but on a more principled basis.

    We can make contact with our representatives. A former manager of mine explained to me that "people respect what you check." I have (shamefully only recently) begin contacting my representatives about their voting. I make recommendations and, more importantly, inquire about their rationale for decisions. At least they can know that a voting constituent is paying attention.

    Granted, one voter can not counter-act hundreds of lobbyists. But, many voters can. Because if we select a new representative, the trough for the current rep is closed.

    A second action is to encourage people to forego the trough themselves. It can be tempting to slop with the rest, or get your "piece of the pie." But each time we belly-up, we offer an approval of the status quo.

    We can encourage our neighbors and friends not to take tha handouts if they don't need them. That way the governmental safety net would truly keep those most disadvantaged from doing without shelter, food, or clothing.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    One action is that of holding discussions like we do here. In this thread alone, we again see that we're more purple than blue or red.
    On this thread I have found new hope.

    We can each encourage people to act/vote not on a single topic, but on a more principled basis.
    I am not sure I understand this point, care to elaborate?

    We can make contact with our representatives...At least they can know that a voting constituent is paying attention.
    An excellent point, if we could encourage more people to get involved at this level, things may start to move on the right direction.

    Granted, one voter can not counter-act hundreds of lobbyists. But, many voters can.
    Agreed...active participation is key to get more from our current system.

    A second action is to encourage people to forego the trough themselves. It can be tempting to slop with the rest, or get your "piece of the pie." But each time we belly-up, we offer an approval of the status quo.

    We can encourage our neighbors and friends not to take tha handouts if they don't need them. That way the governmental safety net would truly keep those most disadvantaged from doing without shelter, food, or clothing.
    I love to talk politics with family and friends, not to indoctrinate to my particular ideas, but rather to stimulate more open discussions of how our government could do better by us.

    To paraphrase Spock, the needs of the many are more important than the needs of the few, or one.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  18.    #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    We can each encourage people to act/vote not on a single topic, but on a more principled basis.
    If you are saying that voters should stop playing the pawn and allowing "wedge issues" to be the basis of their vote, then I couldn't agree more. My own father is like this - a retired union man/steel worker that is demographically someone the Dems typically connects with. BUT, he is pro-gun and the NRA has brainwashed him into voting GOP every election.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    If you are saying that voters should stop playing the pawn and allowing "wedge issues" to be the basis of their vote, then I couldn't agree more. My own father is like this - a retired union man/steel worker that is demographically someone the Dems typically connects with. BUT, he is pro-gun and the NRA has brainwashed him into voting GOP every election.
    That's what I'm talking about.
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