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  1. ancalagon's Avatar
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       #1  
    I grew up being told that God is all knowing and all powerful, yet gave me free will.

    Isn't that a paradox? If God knows what I will choose, isn't free will an illusion?

    If free will is not real, then how can we be responsible for our actions? Are we not just along for the ride?
  2. #2  
    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    I grew up being told that God is all knowing and all powerful, yet gave me free will.
    Likewise here.

    Isn't that a paradox? If God knows what I will choose, isn't free will an illusion?
    Agree with both. If future choices are already known and immutable, this logically negates the concept of free choice.

    If free will is not real, then how can we be responsible for our actions? Are we not just along for the ride?
    Working under the assumption that all future choices are already known to god (omniscience), then the logical answer to your question can only be yes.

    If there is indeed a god, then me being an atheist is certainly god's will (plan for me). Why should I be punished for following the "plan" is beyond my limited comprehension.

    Others will certainly disagree and that will make for an invigorating discussion.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  3. #3  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Why should I be punished for following the "plan" is beyond my limited comprehension.
    I don't believe anybody is going to be punished. It is just mumbo-jumbo to keep us all in check (and coughing-up money at the collection box). The concept here is that "God" can only be "Good" (= no unpleasentness). S/He has the devil to do the dirty work...
  4. #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    I don't believe anybody is going to be punished. It is just mumbo-jumbo to keep us all in check (and coughing-up money at the collection box). The concept here is that "God" can only be "Good" (= no unpleasentness). S/He has the devil to do the dirty work...
    Very true, I've always thought of this as a very clever concept, akin to a "whipping boy"
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  5. #5  
    If God is all-knowing, surely God knows how to create a a being that has free will. If God is all powerful, surely God is able to apply that knowledge.
  6. #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    If God is all-knowing, surely God knows how to create a a being that has free will. If God is all powerful, surely God is able to apply that knowledge.
    If the future is already known, there can be no choice (free-will).
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  7. 02840's Avatar
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    #7  
    “Do you believe in God?” the old man asked, as if we had known each other forever but had somehow neglected to discuss that one topic. I assumed he wanted reassurance that his departure from this life would be the beginning of something better.

    I gave a kind answer.“There has to be a God,” I said. “Otherwise, none of us would be here.” It wasn’t much of a reason, but I figured he didn’t need more.

    “Do you believe God is omnipotent and that people have free will?” he asked.

    “That’s standard stuff for God. So, yeah.”

    “If God is omnipotent, wouldn’t he know the future?”

    “Sure.”

    “If God knows what the future holds, then all our choices are already made, aren’t they? Free will must be an illusion.”
    Quoted from Scott Adam's (of the Dilbert comics fame) book "God's Debris".

    It's available here as a free PDF download.
    http://www.andrewsmcmeel.com/godsdebris/
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  8. #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    If God is all-knowing, surely God knows how to create a a being that has free will. If God is all powerful, surely God is able to apply that knowledge.
    Thats right up there with 'Can God create a being more powerful than itself, and if so, is it really all powerful?'

    Or of course what happens when an unstoppable object meets and immovable object.

    BTW, funny topic for a first post. Welcome to the TreoCentral Off Topic Forum. I hope its not the only reason you joined

    Surur
  9. #9  
    BTW, funny topic for a first post. Welcome to the TreoCentral Off Topic Forum. I hope its not the only reason you joined

    Surur
    We shall expect great things from the lad.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  10. #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Thats right up there with 'Can God create a being more powerful than itself, and if so, is it really all powerful?'

    Or of course what happens when an unstoppable object meets and immovable object.
    How do theists resolve this paradox? Like the one about creating a stone he cannot move.... etc.
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
  11. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    We shall expect great things from the lad.
    Only if he continues to post...he's on but not responding.
  12. #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130 View Post
    Only if he continues to post...he's on but not responding.
    Surely you made him nervous...with your 2000 posts and all
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  13. #13  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Surely you made him nervous...with your 2000 posts and all
    Lil ol' me?? I'm harmless...
  14. #14  
    Hey Christina, you seem to be omniscient...your are mostly off-line but always there to post a "wittiful" reply.

    How can she manage I ask...
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  15. #15  
    You know, of topic posts dont count in your tally, else I dont know how many more I would have.

    Surur
  16. #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by Christinac130 View Post
    Lil ol' me?? I'm harmless...
    Yeahhh...
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  17. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    You know, of topic posts dont count in your tally, else I dont know how many more I would have.

    Surur
    So that's why I'm stuck in the 100's ...does Christina's omniscient post counts as relevant?
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  18. #18  
    Two possible "work arounds", although they may not fit the idea of an all-knowing God.

    1) If could be God knows everything when it happens. So he may not know the future.

    2) It could be God knows all possible outcomes to any given scenario.

    However, both of those scenarios put limits on the concept of an all-knowing God.

    If God does know everything, then we may have the illusion of free will, and for all intents and purposes from OUR perspective we may have free will, but as I have said before, if the outcome of a decision is known, there is no real free will involved.

    And it brings up another interesting point. For people of a scientific bend, they may believe the our actions are defined by brain and body chemistry, which may be based of genetics and experiences. If that is true, from a biological perspective, do we have free will? If our behavior is dictated by our individual experiences and biology, and it is possible to know exactly how the experiences and biology will effect someone, would it be possible to completely predict behavior, even on so-called "non-significant" decisions? (If someone had a complete and accurate biological knowledge of me and how I "worked", would they be able to predict what I would want for breakfast when presented with either a bagel or a waffle?)


    Chris
  19. #19  
    If I offered you some pie, or a pile of S***....

    While it may seem some of you feast on the later, I am certain you would accept the former.
  20. #20  
    There has been recent article in New York Times Science sections that talks about how most of our decisions are made in the sub-conscious part of the brain moments before we seemingly make a free-will choice to do something.

    So, if there is lack of free will, it is because of the way our brain functions .. not because of "God".
    --
    Aloke
    Cingular GSM
    Software:Treo650-1.17-CNG
    Firmware:01.51 Hardware:A
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