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  1. #101  
    And anyway, how would one know (unless he was bb)?
  2. backbeat's Avatar
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    #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    Watch em throw a fit when someone suggest the AIDS epidemic being a plague...
    Having shown your prowess regarding such healthcare fundamentals as elective surgery, your statement does not warrant a response.

    Quote Originally Posted by sblanter View Post
    And anyway, how would one know (unless he was bb)?
    Able to post anything without being personal?
  3. #103  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
    That said, I think you diminish the wonderful achievements of our species by suggesting these accomplishments are not our own, but could only be due to the influence of a more powerful being.
    and...

    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    In all fairness, I did not read GreenHex's post as implying such.
    Thanks TreoNewt... I meant that abstract thought is nothing short of a miracle, and mathematical thinking is one of mankind's supreme accomplishments.
  4. #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    ...I meant that abstract thought is nothing short of a miracle, and mathematical thinking is one of mankind's supreme accomplishments.
    Well said!
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    Thanks TreoNewt... I meant that abstract thought is nothing short of a miracle, and mathematical thinking is one of mankind's supreme accomplishments.
    Sorry, GreenHex... didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I suppose you hit on one of my personal ... ahem ... demons. Whenever I see someone give credit to magical beings for their accomplishments, I cringe. Of course, they have a right to their opinion. My opinion is that there are no magical beings, and that these people have achieved their milestone all by themselves. But by giving credit elsewhere, they have failed to recognize one of the innate strengths of that miraculous species known as homo sapien!
  6. #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
    Sorry, GreenHex... didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I suppose you hit on one of my personal ... ahem ... demons. Whenever I see someone give credit to magical beings for their accomplishments, I cringe. Of course, they have a right to their opinion. My opinion is that there are no magical beings, and that these people have achieved their milestone all by themselves. But by giving credit elsewhere, they have failed to recognize one of the innate strengths of that miraculous species known as homo sapien!
    Well said as well PatrickS!
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
    If you already believe in God, then I'm sure the words of the bible would help you understand His wishes. For me, I do not believe and do not find the bible compelling enough to change my mind. In fact, no artefact of the physical world would be enough for me to believe in magical beings. For that, I would have to witness supernatural events, ones that were clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans. Publishing a book of stories, regardless of how old or how wise those stories might be, simply does not qualify.

    How about if we list the prophencies that came true, which were written 300 to 500 apart- and happend exactly as said- or how about if we listed Jesus's prophency that came true? WOuld that get your minds rolling?

    A math teacher tried to compute the odds of ALL of His prophecies coming true as a concidence and came with something like 1 out of 100million(to the 1million power).
    Lance
    http://www.aslmentor.com
    (my avatar means "I love you" in sign language.
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  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by aslmentor View Post
    How about if we list the prophencies that came true, which were written 300 to 500 apart- and happend exactly as said- or how about if we listed Jesus's prophency that came true? WOuld that get your minds rolling?

    A math teacher tried to compute the odds of ALL of His prophecies coming true as a concidence and came with something like 1 out of 100million(to the 1million power).
    When a prediction of future events exists, is widely known and still comes to pass, this would favor pre-destination, ergo, no free-will.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    When a prediction of future events exists, is widely known and still comes to pass, this would favor pre-destination, ergo, no free-will.
    True, however you still have a certain amount of freedom. for example, you KNOW you will go to work- but you choose your clothes. (bad example). You KNOW you will eat, but you choose what you want to eat. There are some events in place we can not change, yet some events we CAN "infulence".

    For example, abraham negotiated with the Lord (gen 18) to spare Sodom and Gomorrah- He asked that if he found 50 righteous people in the city, would God spare the city? He then asked for 45 people, then 40 people. He eventually got the Lord to agree that if there were 10 people, the Lord would spare the city.

    This is an event that was predestinated to happen, however Abraham could infulence things.

    We can pray and ask for anything, as long as it's in His will, and He will respond. So we have predestination but we have "responsibilies" (lack of better sentence there)
    Lance
    http://www.aslmentor.com
    (my avatar means "I love you" in sign language.
    --------------------------
    PalmIII->Sidekick I-->Sidekick II -->Sidekick III and now Treo 750 which blows them all away.
  10. #110  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
    If you already believe in God, then I'm sure the words of the bible would help you understand His wishes. For me, I do not believe and do not find the bible compelling enough to change my mind. In fact, no artefact of the physical world would be enough for me to believe in magical beings. For that, I would have to witness supernatural events, ones that were clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans. Publishing a book of stories, regardless of how old or how wise those stories might be, simply does not qualify.
    Humans compiled various writings into a single document known as the "Bible."

    Various humans, separated by time and space, authored the writings which were eventually compiled.

    The manner in which the various texts coincide with each other, and converge at the one called Jesus seems to excede the coordinating ability of mere humans.
  11. #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by aslmentor View Post
    We can pray and ask for anything, as long as it's in His will, and He will respond. So we have predestination but we have "responsibilies" (lack of better sentence there)
    I failed to understand your argument, would please re-state it.

    Regarding the piece that I quoted, this is the basis of my point, according to dogma, only what is god's will happens, and god knows all that will happen...how can we have any choice in the matter if it is someone elses will not ours?
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Where is that written in the Koran?
    Excellent question. If one "holy" book lacks or contradicts the content of another, it is appropriate to ascertain which--if either--is worthy of one's attention.
  13. backbeat's Avatar
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    #113  
    "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."
    - Matthew 10:30


    So god picks and chooses what he knows and when he knows it?
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Please answer this question - When God offered Cain the choice whether he was to kill Abel or not, did he know which choice Cain would make? From everything else we know the answer should be yes, yet God did not do anything to intervene (e.g. warning Abel)...

    Surur
    From what source did you glean that conclusion?
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    #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Excellent question. If one "holy" book lacks or contradicts the content of another, it is appropriate to ascertain which--if either--is worthy of one's attention.
    One only has to come to terms that there are no 'holy' books. Only books written by humans and used throughout human history for manipulation to create societal order to the benefit of the few, at the cost of the commoners.

    They are all equally worthy of an individual's attention.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    From what source did you glean that conclusion?
    Dim-Ize. I was challenging his understanding, so provenance of text did not really matter.

    Surur
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by aslmentor View Post
    True, however you still have a certain amount of freedom. for example, you KNOW you will go to work- but you choose your clothes. (bad example). You KNOW you will eat, but you choose what you want to eat. There are some events in place we can not change, yet some events we CAN "infulence".

    For example, abraham negotiated with the Lord (gen 18) to spare Sodom and Gomorrah- He asked that if he found 50 righteous people in the city, would God spare the city? He then asked for 45 people, then 40 people. He eventually got the Lord to agree that if there were 10 people, the Lord would spare the city.

    This is an event that was predestinated to happen, however Abraham could infulence things.

    We can pray and ask for anything, as long as it's in His will, and He will respond. So we have predestination but we have "responsibilies" (lack of better sentence there)
    You're argument does not work, as your small choices may have larger effects down the line, e.g. you leaving to work late may lead to the death of some-one else due to traffic congestion.

    Surur
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    You're argument does not work, as your small choices may have larger effects down the line, e.g. you leaving to work late may lead to the death of some-one else due to traffic congestion.

    Surur

    Right! We create ripples in the walk of the world, good or bad- only God knows.
    Lance
    http://www.aslmentor.com
    (my avatar means "I love you" in sign language.
    --------------------------
    PalmIII->Sidekick I-->Sidekick II -->Sidekick III and now Treo 750 which blows them all away.
  19. #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Dim-Ize. I was challenging his understanding, so provenance of text did not really matter.

    Surur
    The challenege seemed to rest, at least in part, on the assumption that God did not (attempt to) intervene.
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    The challenege seemed to rest, at least in part, on the assumption that God did not (attempt to) intervene.
    How can God attempt to do anything? Either God does something, or he does not. What exactly stops him from achieving his goals, except himself?

    Surur
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