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  1. #81  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    I think Mathematics is (and mathematical (abstract) thought and concepts are) nothing short of miraculous.
    I fail to follow your logic here, could you please elaborate on your idea?

    I doubt you are forwarding the notion that god gave us math...
    Last edited by TreoNewt; 05/06/2007 at 01:17 PM.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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  2. #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    The Red sea and the Resurection are huge!

    Which current events need a miracle of that magnitude?
    If I understood moderateinny's post correctly, his argument was that we have not witnessed miracles of such magnitude in modern times.

    The parting of the Red Sea, the resurection of Crist and many other such miracles, wonderous as they may be, are passed to us by reference (the Bible) and are not a mater of fact but of faith - hence our divide on these issues.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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  3. #83  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    Relatively speaking, yes.

    I believe the Israelites, Egypt, the followers of Christ while he walked the earth, were more significant issues. Just as the trunk of a tree is more significant than that of a branch and that branch more so than a leaf.

    I beleive miracles happen everyday. If some choose to dismiss them as phenomenon then so be it.
    The great miracles of god in the old-testament usually happen as a result of his "chosen people" going astray from their faith, either to punish them or to awe them on god's omnipotency.

    If we are to believe that we are still the "chosen people" then I would argue that we, as a society, are rapidly going astray from god's path and grace, and would further argue that in such a case we are "overdue" for such an awe-inspiring display of divine power to get us back on the path of righteousness.

    Small miracles as you mention, are always subject to individual bias and can be either accepted or discounted as such. A miracle of "biblical-proportions" would likely convince even the most skeptical among us. Why has god chosen not to give us such miracles anymore is a topic for another thread.
    Last edited by TreoNewt; 05/06/2007 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Typo
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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  4. #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    The Red sea and the Resurection are huge!

    Which current events need a miracle of that magnitude?
    Why must His actions all be game savers?

    Seriously, why all the stealth? It makes no sense. If He truly wants us to follow His wishes as written in some holy book, why not simply allow us to see Him, clearly and unmistakably. For me, what I have seen of His existence to date is nothing much more than innuendo. For some, that has been enough, but for me it falls far, far short. Nowhere else in my life do I take significant action with the same basis of knowledge and degree of confidence that religions put forward for the existence of God, yet that belief would have far greater impact for me.
  5. backbeat's Avatar
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    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    Just as the trunk of a tree is more significant than that of a branch and that branch more so than a leaf.
    Without new growth, the tree dies. Without leaves, the branch dies. When the branches die, the tree dies.
  6. backbeat's Avatar
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Well they are intertwined, for the point of this discussion revolves around the definitions and attributes of god as provided by the cannon of organized religions.

    Organized religion defines god as:

    1. A supernatural being, the one and only true god.
    This would be the Judeo-Christian version. Of course, the christian side of that pairing also includes god's other 'personalities'.

    6. God and the Bible are infallible, there is no way either one can ever be wrong.
    Amazing as it may seem to some, god's miracles get smaller and smaller the wiser man becomes because man will no longer be fooled by such horse-hockey old wive's tales.

    Fortunately, a more pragmatic, progessive segment of the christian belief system understands what a pile of historical tales of epic proportions the bible and god are. These, however, are not your Nascar Mom's and Dad's.
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
    If you already believe in God, then I'm sure the words of the bible would help you understand His wishes. For me, I do not believe and do not find the bible compelling enough to change my mind. In fact, no artefact of the physical world would be enough for me to believe in magical beings. For that, I would have to witness supernatural events, ones that were clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans. Publishing a book of stories, regardless of how old or how wise those stories might be, simply does not qualify.
    So, if you could "witness supernatural events, ones that were clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans"......then you would believe? In other words what many here are saying is "Show Me A Sign! Then I will Believer there is a God". Would that be belief at that point? So, if someone had much more advanced understanding and implementation of science and the physics of the world and universe around us, it would prove there is a God?

    Let's say you are being chased by a bunch of Iranians that invaded your town after we attacked them when they launched a nuke at Isreal . You come to a river. One of the members of your group prays and asks for help in crossing the river...the river then suddenly stops flowing right at that moment to the point that it is only knee deep and passable. Then after your group is on the other side safely and with the AQ group only half way across the wall of water comes crashing down and the river returns to it's normal turbulant self. This would be clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans. Would you then believe?

    But you find out later that day that 10 minutes before the man in your group crossing the river prayed for help in crossing the river there was a logging accident a few miles upstream the blocked the river and formed a dam. The dam wasn't very strong so it only held for about 5 minutes before it busted free and let loose all the water that was built up behind it. Would now believe?

    Or if you witnessed an object, let's say a book...the Bible...levitate and move by itself from your coffee table to your couch and then you then saw a glass of water dissapear from the endtable and reappear on the coffee table, but when it reappeared it the water had now turned to wine. This would be clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans. Would you believe?

    Now a week later you find out that your there were two wild jumps in scientific discoveries. You find out that they have fully developed a true invisibility cloak. Which can make objects appear to float around when someone wearing it moves it. And that they have also developed a transporter device like in the Fly or Star Trek. But they even discovered at the same time when the molecular structure was stored and passed from one location to another, they could alter it so the reappearence could become virtually what ever they wanted it to be (i.e. water in wine out). Would you now believe?

    The question is....for those that request to see signs, how often then would these be rationalized away trying to logically explain them as ever day natural phenomon?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/06/2007 at 02:00 PM.
  8. #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    I fail to follow your logic here, could you please elaborate on your idea?

    I doubt you are forwarding the notion that god gave us math...
    Nothing so spectacular.

    I was just trying to say that some things we take for granted can be just as miraculous as things that need to be against all known physical laws to be termed a "miracle".

    Abstract "though" allows us to think about stuff like "God"
  9. backbeat's Avatar
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    The question is....for those that request to see signs, how often then would these be rationalized away trying to logically explain them as ever day natural phenomon?
    All that to ask a simple question?

    By understanding what else was believed at the time of those colorful stories, one can understand how miracles were made into legend. Man has grown more capable at discerning truth in the face of governmental/institutionalized/societal-filtered interference.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    Nothing so spectacular.

    I was just trying to say that some things we take for granted can be just as miraculous as things that need to be against all known physical laws to be termed a "miracle".

    Abstract "though" allows us to think about stuff like "God"
    Got you...thanks for the clarification.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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  11. #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    So, if you could "witness supernatural events, ones that were clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans"......then you would believe?
    Believe no...for believe will no longer be needed as the existance of a supernatural being capable of such feats would then become a factual reality. Still I would not regard him as a god, nor would I adore him blindly.

    The question is....for those that request to see signs, how often then would these be rationalized away trying to logically explain them as ever day natural phenomon?
    For the sake of your question I will elaborate on your Star Trek referrence. Assume the Captain and the Enterprise suddenly appear as a result of time travel, display the ability to travel at multiples of the speed of light, materialize objects in a seemingly magical fashion, display weponery far advanced to ours, seen as capable of bending the known rules of time and space with their superior technologies.

    Would you call them gods and fell on your knees to adore them?

    I for one would just realize that the constructs of our physical knowledge are deficient and would seek to understand how they do what they do by studying their advanced technology.
    Last edited by TreoNewt; 05/06/2007 at 06:27 PM.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  12. #92  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Without new growth, the tree dies. Without leaves, the branch dies. When the branches die, the tree dies.
    Not in a family tree

    I was speaking more about the significantly higher effect an individual or group of individuals had on theology and survival as a whole when the population was a mere fraction what it is today.
  13. #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    So, if you could "witness supernatural events, ones that were clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans"......then you would believe? In other words what many here are saying is "Show Me A Sign! Then I will Believer there is a God". Would that be belief at that point? So, if someone had much more advanced understanding and implementation of science and the physics of the world and universe around us, it would prove there is a God?

    Let's say you are being chased by a bunch of Iranians that invaded your town after we attacked them when they launched a nuke at Isreal . You come to a river. One of the members of your group prays and asks for help in crossing the river...the river then suddenly stops flowing right at that moment to the point that it is only knee deep and passable. Then after your group is on the other side safely and with the AQ group only half way across the wall of water comes crashing down and the river returns to it's normal turbulant self. This would be clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans. Would you then believe?

    But you find out later that day that 10 minutes before the man in your group crossing the river prayed for help in crossing the river there was a logging accident a few miles upstream the blocked the river and formed a dam. The dam wasn't very strong so it only held for about 5 minutes before it busted free and let loose all the water that was built up behind it. Would now believe?

    Or if you witnessed an object, let's say a book...the Bible...levitate and move by itself from your coffee table to your couch and then you then saw a glass of water dissapear from the endtable and reappear on the coffee table, but when it reappeared it the water had now turned to wine. This would be clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans. Would you believe?

    Now a week later you find out that your there were two wild jumps in scientific discoveries. You find out that they have fully developed a true invisibility cloak. Which can make objects appear to float around when someone wearing it moves it. And that they have also developed a transporter device like in the Fly or Star Trek. But they even discovered at the same time when the molecular structure was stored and passed from one location to another, they could alter it so the reappearence could become virtually what ever they wanted it to be (i.e. water in wine out). Would you now believe?

    The question is....for those that request to see signs, how often then would these be rationalized away trying to logically explain them as ever day natural phenomon?

    Yep! They'll always explain them away. Just as there were miracles in the bible there were also plaques




    Watch em throw a fit when someone suggest the AIDS epidemic being a plague...
  14. #94  
    Are believers easily impressed then?

    Surur
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    Yep! They'll always explain them away. Just as there were miracles in the bible there were also plaques
    Lighting and thunder were natural phenomena foreign to the intelectual capacity of ancient societies; to explain these phenomena a mythological structure of gods/godesses was created.

    Through the effort of people, with enough scientific curiosity, that defied these "fantastic" explanations, research into the phenomenon lead to the discovery and understanding of electricity. Centuries later, we have come to bend electricity to our will, making it useful in everyday life to the point that todays technological society would not exist if not for it.

    Think about it, what you are reading right now is the product of efforts by many "non-believers" seeking scientific explanations to lighting and electricity...I say on to you, why stop there?

    Watch em throw a fit when someone suggest the AIDS epidemic being a plague...
    Clever, but that someone already exists...Jerry Falwell?
    Last edited by TreoNewt; 05/06/2007 at 10:37 PM. Reason: typo
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  16. #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    Yep! They'll always explain them away. Just as there were miracles in the bible there were also plaques

    Watch em throw a fit when someone suggest the AIDS epidemic being a plague...

    Ahhh...some more of that Christian tolerance, love, and compassion. Or should I call it "compassionate conservatism?"

    Tell you what - when a guy in robe holds a stick up and parts the seas so that our troops can escape Iraq and come home unharmed, I'll change my agnostic views on the spot. I won't even ask that someone raise themselves from the dead and promise not to question how the man in the robe parted the sea.
  17. #97  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Lighting and thunder were natural phenomenons foreign to the intelectual capacity of ancient societies; to explain these phenomenons a mythological structures of gods/godesses was created.
    Pretty much what I was getting at but more succintly said.

    Is it any accident that today's wackiest of extremist societies are non-secular ones whereby their populations are by and large impoverished and uneducated?
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    Yep! They'll always explain them away. Just as there were miracles in the bible there were also plaques
    You're right. Even if I were to see something that humans could not accomplish, I would be extremely wary of assigning supernatural powers to the perpetrator. You remind me of that saying... any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So, yes, my level of skepticism would be very high. What I don't understand is why is yours so low?



    Watch em throw a fit when someone suggest the AIDS epidemic being a plague...
    You guys using the miracle of white text to simulate omniscience?
  19. #99  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    Abstract "though" allows us to think about stuff like "God"
    Being an ex-mathematician, I think I understand the incredible beauty in the abstract thought that pervades that discipline.

    That said, I think you diminish the wonderful achievements of our species by suggesting these accomplishments are not our own, but could only be due to the influence of a more powerful being.
  20. #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
    ...I think you diminish the wonderful achievements of our species by suggesting these accomplishments are not our own, but could only be due to the influence of a more powerful being.
    In all fairness, I did not read GreenHex's post as implying such.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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