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  1. #61  
    I think a whole lot of people have not thought thought the implications of their various beliefs, and dont really want to either.

    Surur
  2. backbeat's Avatar
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    #62  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I think a whole lot of people have not thought thought the implications of their various beliefs, and dont really want to either.

    Surur
    A viable belief system, whether based upon 'faith' or not, would openly challenge itself without relying upon external forces to do the dirty work.
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    I think a whole lot of people have not thought thought the implications of their various beliefs, and dont really want to either.

    Surur
    The thing is, the question is very different whether or not you allow for an all-knowing entity being possible. Surely, the axioms of the logic we're all struggling to apply suffer a huge hit one way or the other.

    For example, what is the definition of free will? How would you design a (repeatable, independently verifiable) scientific experiment to determine whether a certain individual has it?
  4. #64  
    Okay, I have a question.

    Let's work with two assumptions

    1) God exists, and does intervene at times in peoples lives (with miracles, or what not)
    2) God knows everything.

    If both of those are true, then God knows exactly what it would take for me to believe. "He" knows what I would need to see in terms of his actions or presence, and exactly how I would respond to that.

    Since that hasn't happened, God obviously has not chosen to do what it would take to change my mind. So why not? If God knows what it would take, why doesn't he do it to get me to believe?

    Even if the first assumption (that God participates) is wrong, and lets assume God does NOT participate in any way our the lives of mere mortals, then God has knowingly allowed hundreds of thousands of non-believing humans to be created/born/come into this world, KNOWING that they would not believe, and not doing anything to change that. And according to Christian belief, non-believers are condemned, correct? Why would God allow this to occur, with people "he" KNOWS won't believe, and knows there they will die not believing?

    Chris
    Last edited by cjvitek; 05/05/2007 at 10:40 PM.
  5. Dim-Ize's Avatar
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    #65  
    In Genesis 4:1-16 we read of an account with which most of you are familliar.

    Here we are presented with the account of Cain murdering Abel, his brother.

    Did God know Cain was going to choose to murder Abel? Yes. Did He intervene and give Cain every possible oppotunity to choose (free will) otherwise? Yes. Did God force Cain to kill Able? No. Did God predetermine or predestine Cain to kill Abel? No.

    God knew the outcome of Cain's choice. But since God loved Cain, He presented Cain with an opportunity to choose otherwise. At that very moment, Cain could have chosen to obey, but he did not - instead, Cain chose to murder his brother.

    Each one of us has the oppotunity to heed God's Word (Bible). If we don't, the guilt is upon us individually.

    Even though Cain didn't like the punishment he recieved, Cain understood that his punishment was the result of his own choice. So will we in the day of judgement when we recieve our sentencing.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______________



    Genesis 4

    1 Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man." 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.

    Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil. 3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. 4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.

    6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

    8 Now Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field." [d] And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.

    9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is your brother Abel?" "I don't know," he replied. "Am I my brother's keeper?"

    10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."

    13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."

    15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
  6. Dim-Ize's Avatar
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    #66  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjvitek View Post
    Okay, I have a question.

    If God knows what it would take, why doesn't he do it to get me to believe?

    He does know what it would take. He has already given it to you. It is the Bible. Read Luke 16:19-31. Here, Jesus himself tells of the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus. This scenario occurs after the death of each individual. They end up in a place called Hades (Sheol). This is not Heaven or Hell. But, a place where the dead go before the final judgement. In this place, there is a separation of good and evil. A great gulf separates the two. One cannot cross over from one side to the next. Yet, each individual can communicate, they are known by others and know others. They experience memory, feelings, and desire.

    The rich man wants to have Lazarus sent back from the dead to warn his brothers. Something that would be an incredible miracle. Abraham says, No - they have Moses and the prophets (both of which pointed towards the savior, Jesus, who was coming) - if they don't listen to Moses and the prophets - neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.

    The point here - is that we have everything we need in order to be covered with God's grace. It is found in the Bible. If we choose not to listen or heed the Word of God, it is our choice. Ours alone.

    One other important point from this scripture - is that once we die - we can no longer affect our current state or our final destination (Heaven or Hell). This life, this very moment, is the only time that we can change where we are headed.

    We do have a choice. It is to obey or not. It is that simple. God does not force us one way or the other.
  7. #67  
    If you already believe in God, then I'm sure the words of the bible would help you understand His wishes. For me, I do not believe and do not find the bible compelling enough to change my mind. In fact, no artefact of the physical world would be enough for me to believe in magical beings. For that, I would have to witness supernatural events, ones that were clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans. Publishing a book of stories, regardless of how old or how wise those stories might be, simply does not qualify.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dim-Ize View Post
    In Genesis 4:1-16 we read of an account with which most of you are familliar.

    Here we are presented with the account of Cain murdering Abel, his brother.

    Did God know Cain was going to choose to murder Abel? Yes. Did He intervene and give Cain every possible oppotunity to choose (free will) otherwise? Yes. Did God force Cain to kill Able? No. Did God predetermine or predestine Cain to kill Abel? No.

    God knew the outcome of Cain's choice. But since God loved Cain, He presented Cain with an opportunity to choose otherwise. At that very moment, Cain could have chosen to obey, but he did not - instead, Cain chose to murder his brother.
    Please answer this question - When God offered Cain the choice whether he was to kill Abel or not, did he know which choice Cain would make? From everything else we know the answer should be yes, yet God did not do anything to intervene (e.g. warning Abel). I hold God perfectly responsible.

    Please explain why you dont.

    He does know what it would take. He has already given it to you. It is the Bible.
    This is a stupid statement. Obviously for many many people its not. How could you even say that with a straight face?

    Just because I insist that a bowl of rice per day is all you need to stay alive does not automatically make it so.

    Surur
  9. #69  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjvitek View Post
    How is it not predestination?

    If I know 10 years from now, what you will have for breakfast on May 5th, 2017, AND I CAN NOT BE WRONG about it, aren't you then "destined" to have that for breakfast?

    If I know, AND I can't be wrong EVER, than you ARE fated, you ARE predestined to have whatever I "know" you will have for breakfast on that date.

    It's waffles.

    Chris

    Interesting analogy. So life is just a big diner's menu (the appearance of free will) but God knows what we'll order each and every time (fate).

    All this would be a heck of a lot easier if we were allowed to sample the menu before deciding (e.g. like seeing the Red Sea divided or Christ rising from the dead) instead of only having lacquer covered samples to choose from (e.g. an occasional Virgin Mary on a potato chip or Jay Leno spud head).

    Seriously, since our fate is already known God seems to be really down on the last two millenniums of his followers - I mean, since he knows everything he surely knows we need the most convincing yet we've not gotten a really BIG miracle since his son last dropped in for a visit.
  10. backbeat's Avatar
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    #70  
    Quote Originally Posted by PatrickS View Post
    If you already believe in God, then I'm sure the words of the bible would help you understand His wishes. For me, I do not believe and do not find the bible compelling enough to change my mind. In fact, no artefact of the physical world would be enough for me to believe in magical beings. For that, I would have to witness supernatural events, ones that were clearly and unmistakably beyond the means of mere humans. Publishing a book of stories, regardless of how old or how wise those stories might be, simply does not qualify.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dim-Ize View Post
    Each one of us has the oppotunity to heed God's Word (Bible). If we don't, the guilt is upon us individually.
    Furthermore, these books/stories would hand-selected by men who did not author them, to be included within a single volume [bible] because the christian belief system was falling apart. Before this period, which was >millenia after being written, what was the 'word of god'?
  11. #71  
    I think there is some confusion here by mixing-up organized religion with God.
  12. #72  
    The Red sea and the Resurection are huge!

    Which current events need a miracle of that magnitude?
  13. backbeat's Avatar
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    #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    The Red sea and the Resurection are huge!

    Which current events need a miracle of that magnitude?
    Where is that written in the Koran?
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    The Red sea and the Resurection are huge!

    Which current events need a miracle of that magnitude?
    I think my point was that we haven't had a miracle that big for a very long time - and some may find that in and of itself pretty telling.

    But to your point - are you saying that the parting of the red sea happened because they had bigger problems that required bigger miracles back then? Please, do tell.
  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Where is that written in the Koran?
    They don't count - they're all going to hell. Same with the Budahists, Jews, and anything in between. Thankfully we are a Christian nation so those of us (well....those of us that aren't Jews, Muslims, and Budahists...and of course godless liberals) are all going straight to heaven some day. Yeah for us!
  16. #76  
    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    Which current events need a miracle of that magnitude?
    I think Mathematics is (and mathematical (abstract) thought and concepts are) nothing short of miraculous.
  17. backbeat's Avatar
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    #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    They don't count - they're all going to hell. Same with the Budahists, Jews, and anything in between. Thankfully we are a Christian nation so those of us (well....those of us that aren't Jews, Muslims, and Budahists...and of course godless liberals) are all going straight to heaven some day. Yeah for us!
    You know the words ... Sing Along!

    'Un Em Prowd Tuh B En Umerkun ...'
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    I think my point was that we haven't had a miracle that big for a very long time - and some may find that in and of itself pretty telling.

    But to your point - are you saying that the parting of the red sea happened because they had bigger problems that required bigger miracles back then? Please, do tell.
    Relatively speaking, yes.

    I believe the Israelites, Egypt, the followers of Christ while he walked the earth, were more significant issues. Just as the trunk of a tree is more significant than that of a branch and that branch more so than a leaf.

    I beleive miracles happen everyday. If some choose to dismiss them as phenomenon then so be it.
  19. #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dim-Ize View Post
    He does know what it would take. He has already given it to you.
    No, he hasn't.

    For SOME people, the bible may be enough. Not for me.

    So God has NOT provided me with what I need to believe, so God has created me KNOWING I wouldn't believe in him, because he knows exactly what it will take for ME to beleive.

    Chris
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    I think there is some confusion here by mixing-up organized religion with God.
    Well they are intertwined, for the point of this discussion revolves around the definitions and attributes of god as provided by the cannon of organized religions.

    Organized religion defines god as:

    1. A supernatural being, the one and only true god.
    2. God has no beginning, no end, has always existed and is the creator of everything and everything happens because of him (god's will).
    3. He is omnipotent and the supreme being, nothing is impossible to god.
    4. He is omniscient and everything is known to him, past, present and future right from the beginning of time itself.
    5. God is omnipresent, is everywhere all the time and sees everything.
    6. God and the Bible are infallible, there is no way either one can ever be wrong.

    And...

    7. God gives us free-will to make our choices and so define our future, a future that is already known to him since the beginning of time and we can not change with our choices because he is infallible and knows everything.

    Number 7 is the results of all the absolute attrributes of god as defined by organized religion, to us those defy logical scrutiny.
    Last edited by TreoNewt; 05/06/2007 at 06:11 PM. Reason: Typo
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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