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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Eg. I know for a fact if I jump out my moving car it will plow into a market and kill people, but I do it anyway, I wont get of by saying I was not at the controls, and the car decided to run into the people by itself.
    Again bad analogy if the driver is God and the car is suppose to be the person. The car cannot make decisions. This is a good example of having free will and being responsible for one's choices.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Aahhh......I see part of the problem...you are adding in preordination and predestination with the HUGE assumption that God MAKES the future. Who said God MAKES the future? Even in your premise, you state he only Knows about the future.
    During twelve years of theology it was clear dogma of the church (Catholic) that...

    1. God is the creator of the world and all within it.
    2. God is omnipotent and nothing happens without him.
    3. God is omniscient and knows everything from the beginning to the end and for all eternity.
    4. God is omnipresent is everywhere sees everything.

    An interesting quote I've heard from most every priest and preacher over the years is that god knows everything, even every hair in your head today even before you were concieved and even from the beginning of times!

    If god is proclaimed to know every hair on my head this very minute, and has known that form the beginning of time and he is infallible, what else is there to say!
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  3. #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Again bad analogy if the driver is God and the car is suppose to be the person. The car cannot make decisions. This is a good example of having free will and being responsible for one's choices.
    The car is just an analogy, but what it is meant to convey is that when God decided to set man free he already knew the consequences in detail, which makes him responsible for his actions, and the deeds that followed.

    Surur
  4. #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    During twelve years of theology it was clear dogma of the church (Catholic) that...
    We are not all Catholic so I cannot speak on the specifics of Catholicism. Sorry about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    1. God is the creator of the world and all within it.
    I agree with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    2. God is omnipotent and nothing happens without him.
    Fine...but this still does not say he forces you to make your choices. Isn't offering the gift of Free Will being a part of what is happening when it would be in his power to not offer Free Will?
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    3. God is omniscient and knows everything from the beginning to the end and for all eternity.
    Again, is knowledge of the future physically taking away your free will?
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    4. God is omnipresent is everywhere sees everything.
    So he has good eyes. Knowing what is happening does not mean his has taking away free will. Just like in my analogy. My knowledge of the future, even though it ended up as I saw, did not remove the opportunities, the choices, or restrict him in any way from making either choice.
  5. #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    My knowledge of the future, even though it ended up as I saw, did not remove the opportunities, the choices, or restrict him in any way from making either choice.
    Its becoming clear to me now that just like the omniscience and omnipotence of God is an object of faith to you, so is the free will of man, and that you are not approaching it in an experimental manner. You see no paradox in saying some-one has free will and still his every action is predictable, because free will to you is an inalienable property of man, irrespective of the (hypothetical) observation evidence to the contrary.

    I'm putting a lot of words in your mouth, but thats the way it looks to me.

    Surur
  6. #46  
    I am saying that knowledge of the future is NOT predestination. It is not preordination. Which is what I believe is your point of view is.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Fine...but this still does not say he forces you to make your choices. Isn't offering the gift of Free Will being a part of what is happening when it would be in his power to not offer Free Will?
    .
    .
    .
    Again, is knowledge of the future physically taking away your free will?
    He is not forcing anybody to make choices, the life story is already written by him before the beginning of time. According to dogmatic teachings, he knows what each an every one of us has done, is doing and will ever do before he created the world...I don't say that, religion does.

    This seems to be at odds with the concept of we have free-will to make choices but god already knows what we are going to choose and he is never wrong.

    If the future is already decided before creation, and has to be since since he already knows it (doctrine of omniscience), and he is never wrong (doctrine of infallibility), and the future could not have been created by a superior being as he is IT (doctrine of omnipotency), then we just live the life that has been pre-ordained for us BY god himself; when things are pre-ordained there is no room for free-choice.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  8. #48  
    An analogy (I know is a bad one) is a movie:

    When we see the movie for the first time (assuming we have no clue whatsoever about the plot), the characters seem to be making choices as the movie goes along. If we go back and watch the same movie again and again, the choices made will always be the same since they were bound by a script during filming.

    To the viewer, characters seemed to make a series of choices in the movie, however, what was going to happen in every scene was known to the writers well before the filming began since they produced the script upon which the movie was filmed.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    We are not all Catholic so I cannot speak on the specifics of Catholicism. Sorry about that.
    Considering that were it not for the Catholic church we likely wouldn't have the Bible in any recognizable form, I think that it's hard to avoid Catholic dogma in any such discussion.
    Fine...but this still does not say he forces you to make your choices.
    Irrelevant. If one _knows_ the outcome, then you in fact do not have free will. Free will implies that you could make a choice which cannot be predicted.
    Again, is knowledge of the future physically taking away your free will?
    No, it's proving that it was never granted in the first place.
    So he has good eyes.
    No, the concept is not that one is good at predicting what will happen, it's that one _knows_ what will happen. If one knows what will happen, the concept of free will goes out the window since it implies that one could make another choice and prove the knower wrong.
    Knowing what is happening does not mean his has taking away free will. Just like in my analogy. My knowledge of the future, even though it ended up as I saw, did not remove the opportunities, the choices, or restrict him in any way from making either choice.
    Sure it did. The only way that a choice really exists is if the predictor could be wrong. If the predictor can't be wrong, there was never a choice.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post

    Sure it did. The only way that a choice really exists is if the predictor could be wrong. If the predictor can't be wrong, there was never a choice.
    God doesn't predict. He knows all remember. We (humans , who don't know much of anything) are the ones that predict and we are usually wrong. We figure it out through trial and error.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    That seems to be at odds with the dogmatic definition of god's omniscience:

    "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." 1 Jn 3:20
    Please explain...... I don't know what you mean?
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    An analogy (I know is a bad one) is a movie:

    When we see the movie for the first time (assuming we have no clue whatsoever about the plot), the characters seem to be making choices as the movie goes along. If we go back and watch the same movie again and again, the choices made will always be the same since they were bound by a script during filming.

    To the viewer, characters seemed to make a series of choices in the movie, however, what was going to happen in every scene was known to the writers well before the filming began since they produced the script upon which the movie was filmed.

    It is a terrible one.
    Everyone knows that 90% of the movies we see, we can predict the out come. Did we take the movie characters free will away, cause we knew what was going to happen?????!!!!!!! Same thing with God. He does not steal our free will.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by smileyboy View Post
    It is a terrible one.
    Everyone knows that 90% of the movies we see, we can predict the out come. Did we take the movie characters free will away, cause we knew what was going to happen?????!!!!!!! Same thing with God. He does not steal our free will.
    Movie characters do not have free will. They just have the semblance of free will.

    Surur
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by smileyboy View Post
    God doesn't predict.
    I believe I said that.
    He knows all remember.
    That's the story anyway. The predictor comment was dealing with HobbesIsReal's analogy of a clairvoyant.
    We (humans , who don't know much of anything) are the ones that predict and we are usually wrong. We figure it out through trial and error.
    But do we really? Aren't those trials just part of the plan? Can we deviate from the plan?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by smileyboy View Post
    Please explain...... I don't know what you mean?
    I think post #47 explains this more.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by smileyboy View Post
    It is a terrible one.
    Everyone knows that 90% of the movies we see, we can predict the out come. Did we take the movie characters free will away, cause we knew what was going to happen?????!!!!!!! Same thing with God. He does not steal our free will.
    I said it was a bad analogy...

    We (equivalent to humans in my analogy) may be able to predict the movie's outcome via "educated guessing", we may be right or wrong. We don't know for sure but have a very good idea of the outcome based on prior movies.

    The script writer (god in the analogy) already knows for sure, scene by scene, what every character will do even months before the movie is ever filmed. I you were to ask him he could tell you with detail all that will happen and then when you see the movie you will see events unfold as the script writer defined...no deviation, no "free-will".

    Before you guys start with not all the movies follow the script faithfully, this is an analogy and assumes strict adherance to the written script.

    Wait, an omniscient moment...I say that you will refute my point!...
    Last edited by TreoNewt; 05/07/2007 at 12:41 AM.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Wait, an omniscient moment...I say that you will refute my point!...
    More like not be amenable to logic...

    Surur
  18. backbeat's Avatar
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    #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    If I understood correctly, your position is that god is not omniscient but rather has an "educated guess" of the future events based on our present behavioral choices.
    In this way, isn't it quite curious just how human god is ... Assuming he's actually paying attention?
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Your supporting argument is a paradox. Who made the decision...God or the person? The person did. Did God force that decision? No. Does he say he forces the decision? No. You are saying that simply having knowledge of the future physically destines another along a path of fate.
    There is a difference between FORCING a decision, and knowing the outcome.

    Forcing a decision is actively removing someone's choice. It actively prevents free will.

    Knowing the outcome of a decision before it happens with 100% accuracy is not forcibly REMOVING free will, it is just preventing it because in reality, there is no choice. If you are certain, with 100% accuracy, that I will choose "A", then when I am presented with a choice of A or B, I may THINK I can choose either one, but in reality I can't, because you already know I will choose A.

    Now toss into the mix that the idea that God is the all powerful creator, and has created us all and they way we are, then how can we, in reality have ANY choice - God created us the way we are, the choices we make are a result of who we are, and the results of those choices are known in advance.

    Again. In my example did my knowledge physically force the person? No. Knowledge of the future is not fate. The responsibility of our choices are our own.
    Knowledge of the future with absolute infallability IS the same as fate. WHo knows WHY someone chooses a specific path, but if you know they will choose it, and you CAN'T be wrong, then it is "fated" that they will choose that path.

    Chris
  20. #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    I am saying that knowledge of the future is NOT predestination. It is not preordination. Which is what I believe is your point of view is.
    How is it not predestination?

    If I know 10 years from now, what you will have for breakfast on May 5th, 2017, AND I CAN NOT BE WRONG about it, aren't you then "destined" to have that for breakfast?

    If I know, AND I can't be wrong EVER, than you ARE fated, you ARE predestined to have whatever I "know" you will have for breakfast on that date.

    It's waffles.

    Chris
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