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  1. ancalagon's Avatar
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       #21  
    Sorry about the strange first post. I am at work, so can't always respond. I have been lurking for a long time, but had this arguement with my wife last night, and you all seem like intelligent people (most of the time).

    I have to live like I have free will. Otherwise, what is the point? Just not sure if I am deluded or actually have a stake in my eternal soul.
  2. #22  
    Great topic.

    1. Free will is something you CHOSSE to do. what some of you are talking about is Fate...... Like someone else is pulling the strings.

    2. Deut. 31:20, 21: “I shall bring them [the nation of Israel] to the ground that I have sworn about to their forefathers, which flows with milk and honey, and they will certainly eat and be satisfied and grow fat and turn to other gods, and they will indeed serve them and treat me with disrespect and break my covenant. And it must occur that when many calamities and distresses will come upon them, this song [recounting how they acted because of failing to appreciate God’s favor] must also answer before them as a witness, . . . for I well know their inclination that they are developing today before I bring them into the land about which I have sworn.” (Note that God’s ability to discern the outcome of their course did not mean that he was responsible for it or that it was what he wanted for them, but on the basis of what they were doing he could foresee the outcome. Similarly, on the basis of what is observed, a weather forecaster may predict the weather with a great degree of accuracy, but he does not cause it or necessarily like it.)
    Does God’s ability to foreknow and foreordain events prove that he does this regarding all the actions of all his creatures?

    Rev. 22:17: “Let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ And let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” (The choice is not foreordained; it is left to the individual.)

    Rom. 2:4, 5: “Do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and long-suffering, because you do not know that the kindly quality of God is trying to lead you to repentance? But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and of the revealing of God’s righteous judgment.”
    There is no forcing of individuals to pursue a prescribed course. But there is accountability for what one does.
  3. #23  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjvitek View Post
    And it brings up another interesting point. For people of a scientific bend, they may believe the our actions are defined by brain and body chemistry, which may be based of genetics and experiences. If that is true, from a biological perspective, do we have free will?
    We have some knowledge about the bio-chemical workings of the human brain, we know what certain areas of the brain do in general. We know that certain chemicals affect thought processes and how to modify the actions of said chemicals (i.e., psychoactive drugs). How this chemical reactions produce ideas, reasoning, emotions or even memory I don't think we know enough yet.

    (If someone had a complete and accurate biological knowledge of me and how I "worked", would they be able to predict what I would want for breakfast when presented with either a bagel or a waffle?)
    I don't know about the "biological knowledge concept", but by studying behavior patterns we can certainly predict your likely choice.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  4. #24  
    Due to the nature of things we could never know exactly what a biological brain would do. If at some level the system relies upon quantum-level actions, one could never know the state of the system well enough to be able to predict everything with certainty.

    The question was about God however, who is presumably not bound by natural laws.

    Smileyboy, its not just about being all knowing, its also about being all powerful, and therefore being able to pre-arrange things thousands to millions of years in the past so it turns out to his wishes today. Just being all knowing would make you like Cassandra.

    Surur
  5. #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by smileyboy View Post
    Great topic.

    1. Free will is something you CHOSSE to do. what some of you are talking about is Fate...... Like someone else is pulling the strings.
    Actually not about fate (which I don't happen to believe in either), but the theological concept put forth by some theist about the omniscient quality of god and how that contrast with the idea of free-will.

    If I understood correctly, your position is that god is not omniscient but rather has an "educated guess" of the future events based on our present behavioral choices.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  6. #26  
    No, rather God chosses to see in the future. He gives us all a choice (aka) free will, to do what is right or wrong.
    Meaning he can turn it off. God doesn't have to see the future.
  7. #27  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Hey Christina, you seem to be omniscient...your are mostly off-line but always there to post a "wittiful" reply.

    How can she manage I ask...
    I'm stealthy...

    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    You know, of topic posts dont count in your tally, else I dont know how many more I would have.

    Surur
    Wow! If that's true then I must be really helpful. I thought most of my posts were off topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by sxtg View Post
    If I offered you some pie, or a pile of S***....

    While it may seem some of you feast on the later, I am certain you would accept the former.
    Hey Cowboy...where did that come from??
  8. #28  
    Let see if I get this straight. If God can see the future then you do not have any free will. That is the premise that a lot of are proposing, correct? I want to follow that logic to see if I understand....

    Let's say that I am clairvoyant and I know for a fact that Ancalagon (not picking on you, just using you in this example since you posed the question here) tomorrow at 3:48 pm his local time is going to make a choice on which route to take while driving home from the Mall (he had to buy a nice gift since he had this argument with is wife last night). When he gets to the intersection of SE 112th Ave and Broadway Blvd, he could go either way. The SE 112th way is shorter in miles, but has a lot more stop lights and can take longer. The Broadway Blvd way usually takes less time but is longer and leads through some winding roads but is usaully faster drive time wise. Now I know that he is going to chose to go the Broadway Blvd route because Ancalagon just wants to get home as fast as possible. The problem is that I know when he does he will get in a serious car accident when dog wanders in the road in front of him just as he has a massive allergy sneeze attack. I can also see that 112th Ave route has no traffic and nothing crosses the road all the way. Now because I know this is going to happen. Does this limit his free will? Does he still have a choice?

    We can take a step further. I call Ancalagon and tell him exactly what I know. I advice him to go 112th Ave route on the way home. Does he still have a choice? Can he choose to not believe my counsel and go the faster way?

    Did my knowledge take away his free will? Did my advice to make his life better with that knowledge take away his free will? Even if I sent an ambulance at the very spot I knew the accident would occur (as he I know he is still going to make the Broadway Blvd choice), did I take away his free will?
    Last edited by HobbesIsReal; 05/04/2007 at 05:37 PM.
  9. #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Let see if I get this straight. If God can see the future then you do not have any free will. That is is the premise that a lot of are proposing, correct? I want to follow that logic to see if I understand....

    Let's say that I clairvoyant and I know for a fact that Ancalagon (not picking on you, just using you in this example since you posed the question here) tomorrow at 3:48 pm his local time is going to make a choice on which which route to take while driving home from the Mall (he had to buy a nice gift since he had this argument with is wife last night). When he gets to the intersection of SE 112th Ave and Broadway Blvd, he could go either way. The SE 112th way is short in miles, but has a lot more stop lights and can take longer. The Broadway Blvd way usually takes less time but is longer and leads through some winding roads. Now I know that he is going to chose to the Broadway Blvd route because Ancalagon just wants to get home as fast as possible. The problem is that I know when he does he will get in a serious car accident when dog wanders in the road in front of him just as he has a massive allergy sneeze attack. I can also see that 112th Ave route has all but no traffic all the way. Now because I know this is going to happen. Does this limit his free will? Does he still have a choice?
    If you are 100% accurate, clearly not. He's just along for the ride.


    We can take a step further. I call Ancalagon and tell him exactly what I know. I advice him to go 112th Ave route on the way home. Does he still have a choice? Can he choose to not believe my counsel and go the faster way?

    Did my knowledge take his free will? Did my advice to make his life better with that knowledge take away his free will? Even if I sent an ambulance at the very spot I knew the accident would occur, did I take away his free will?
    If you tell him and he still has the accident, thats even clearer indication that he is just a puppet, unable to chose to avoid the future you foresaw. If you told him and the accident does not happen, it just means you are not so accurate after all.

    Surur
  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    If you are 100% accurate, clearly not. He's just along for the ride.
    That makes no sense. How did I actively take away his free?



    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    If you tell him and he still has the accident, thats even clearer indication that he is just a puppet, unable to chose to avoid the future you foresaw. If you told him and the accident does not happen, it just means you are not so accurate after all.
    Again when I give him knowledge to hopefully help him make a wiser choice, how did I remove his free will? Wouldn't that be adding to his opportunities in increasing his agency in excercising his free will? did I physically bar him from making one choice or another?
  11. #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Let see if I get this straight. If God can see the future then you do not have any free will. That is the premise that a lot of are proposing, correct? I want to follow that logic to see if I understand....
    This are the premisses proposed by the theist community, not by me:

    1. God is omniscient - knows all the past, present and future.
    2. God gave us free will to choose our path.

    If premisse #1 is true, then god knows all that we have done, all that we are doing and all that we are going to do (not all that we may do or all the possible things we may do). If god knows that we are going to choose B in the future, when choices A and B are presented to it seems we choose B, in reality the choice was already made from the beginning.

    If premisse #2 is true, then when it comes to choose, we can either go with A or B and until the choice is made God can't know what we will choose.

    Premisse #1 AND #2 can not be both true, they seem to be mutually exclusive to me.
    Last edited by TreoNewt; 05/07/2007 at 12:29 AM.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by smileyboy View Post
    No, rather God chosses to see in the future. He gives us all a choice (aka) free will, to do what is right or wrong.
    Meaning he can turn it off. God doesn't have to see the future.
    That seems to be at odds with the dogmatic definition of god's omniscience:

    "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." 1 Jn 3:20
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  13. #33  
    That makes no sense. How did I actively take away his free?
    You did not actively take it away, you just revealed that he never really had a choice at all. Its like showing some-one at a fun park that the car they thought they were controlling was on rails all the time, and every time he turned the steering wheel and pulled the lever it actually did nothing at all.

    Surur
  14. #34  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    You did not actively take it away, you just revealed that he never really had a choice at all. Its like showing some-one at a fun park that the car they thought they were controlling was on rails all the time, and every time he turned the steering wheel and pulled the lever it actually did nothing at all.

    Surur
    Totally bogus analogy. In my example were there physical rails to prevent him from taking the 112th Ave route?
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Totally bogus analogy. In my example were there physical rails to prevent him from taking the 112th Ave route?
    I actually think its a very good analogy. Why do the rails have to be physical? We are talking about a supernatural phenomena here after all (God being the be all and end all of the universe etc).

    Surur
  16. #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    If god knows that we are going to choose B in the future, when choices A and B are presented to it seems we choose B, in reality the choice was already made from the beginning.
    Your supporting argument is a paradox. Who made the decision...God or the person? The person did. Did God force that decision? No. Does he say he forces the decision? No. You are saying that simply having knowledge of the future physically destines another along a path of fate.

    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    If premisse #2 is true, then when it comes to choose, we can either go with A or B and until the choice is made God can't know what we will choose.

    Premisse #1 AND #2 can not be both true, they seem to be mutually exclusive to me.
    Again. In my example did my knowledge physically force the person? No. Knowledge of the future is not fate. The responsibility of our choices are our own.
  17. #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Your supporting argument is a paradox. Who made the decision...God or the person? The person did. Did God force that decision? No. Does he say he forces the decision? No. You are saying that simply having knowledge of the future physically destines another along a path of fate.
    Of course the argument is a paradox...according to dogma god not only knows the future, he makes the future (omnipotent quality)...the future has already been ordained by god so you have no choice but to follow the path he has designed; you are not more powerful or knowledgable than god to choose against his will.

    Again. In my example did my knowledge physically force the person? No. Knowledge of the future is not fate. The responsibility of our choices are our own.
    Your example is irrelevant, you don't make the future god does.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  18. #38  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Your supporting argument is a paradox. Who made the decision...God or the person? The person did. Did God force that decision? No. Does he say he forces the decision? No. You are saying that simply having knowledge of the future physically destines another along a path of fate.

    Again. In my example did my knowledge physically force the person? No. Knowledge of the future is not fate. The responsibility of our choices are our own.
    Because God set up the initial conditions, knowing the outcome, he is in fact the one responsible. Its like God pulled the trigger, while we are the bullet. We dont have much choice about who we hit, but God knows who he is aiming at.

    Or if you drop a rabid dog in a nursery. The outcome is predictable even before the action took place, and you still decided to do it. Saying the dog could have decided not to bite anyone does not absolve you from responsibility for its actions.

    Surur
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Of course the argument is a paradox...according to dogma god not only knows the future, he makes the future (omnipotent quality)...the future has already been ordained by god so you have no choice but to follow the path he has designed; you are not more powerful or knowledgable than god to choose against his will.



    Your example is irrelevant, you don't make the future god does.
    Aahhh......I see part of the problem...you are adding in preordination and predestination with the HUGE assumption that God MAKES the future. Who said God MAKES the future? Even in your premise, you state he only Knows about the future.
  20. #40  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Aahhh......I see part of the problem...you are adding in preordination and predestination with the HUGE assumption that God MAKES the future. Who said God MAKES the future? Even in your premise, you state he only Knows about the future.
    Even if you say people with free will are completely out of control by God, the simple act of granting them free will, already knowing their future actions when they are given free will, confers responsibility on the creator.

    Eg. I know for a fact if I jump out my moving car it will plow into a market and kill people, but I do it anyway, I wont get of by saying I was not at the controls, and the car decided to run into the people by itself.

    Surur
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