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  1. #381  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Your two points are at odds with each other, though very understandably which is why I find these questions very intriguing. It basically seems to boil down to I don't know. I don't how to prove it. So there has to be some leap of faith that there is a scientific explanation as matter is here.
    So you eventually get to your point. You know natural process is much simpler to accept that SUPERnatural process. Natural things happen by themselves, whereas supernatural things require some super-powerful intervention.

    You dont need faith to suspect a natural explanation. The supernatural explanation on the other hand ...

    Surur
  2. #382  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Your two points are at odds with each other, though very understandably which is why I find these questions very intriguing. It basically seems to boil down to I don't know. I don't how to prove it. So there has to be some leap of faith that there is a scientific explanation as matter is here.
    Why does there have to be a leap of faith?

    If you believe the world is a rationale place, then there doesn't have to be a leap of faith, you just accept the fact there is an answer that you don't know.

    I mean, unless you are assuming the "leap of faith" is the assumption that the world is a rationale place with it's own laws of reality and existence.

    Chris
  3. #383  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    So you eventually get to your point. You know natural process is much simpler to accept that SUPERnatural process. Natural things happen by themselves, whereas supernatural things require some super-powerful intervention.

    You don't need faith to suspect a natural explanation. The supernatural explanation on the other hand ...

    Surur
    Isn't supernatural basically something we just don't understand or cannot explain? People say they see ghosts. It is classified as supernatural because we have no understanding of the possibilities of their existence or not. What dimensions, worlds, powers that be, etc...that may be involved if they are real.

    I used faith as the meaning of word: Believing in something that cannot be seen, known for sure, or has evidence of proof. You say you don't know the answers to the questions. Yet you believe that there is a scientific answer. That is a leap of faith in a scientific explanation that does not exist yet. Faith does not have to be only applied to religious principles.
  4. #384  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Isn't supernatural basically something we just don't understand or cannot explain? People say they see ghosts. It is classified as supernatural because we have no understanding of the possibilities of their existence or not. What dimensions, worlds, powers that be, etc...that may be involved if they are real.

    I used faith as the meaning of word: Believing in something that cannot be seen, known for sure, or has evidence of proof. You say you don't know the answers to the questions. Yet you believe that there is a scientific answer. That is a leap of faith in a scientific explanation that does not exist yet. Faith does not have to be only applied to religious principles.
    Again, an expectation of a prosaic explanation for an unexplained phenomena should be the default position, and not require a leap of faith. Its only when magical thinking is very strong that a magical explanation would seem more likely than a more down to earth physical process explanation.

    Also, science has a good track record of explaining things previously poorly explained by supernatural forces, and the trend is clear. Even just based on that, the expectation that supernatural explanations are wrong should be quite strong. Just think of Scooby Do.

    Surur
  5.    #385  
    In reference to this link that was posted: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html

    Many of those statements are taken out of context. As an example:
    The Bible says there is no God.

    Psalm 53:1

    The fool says in his heart, [b]"There is no God."[b] They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.

    See? There it is right there.

    This post is not meant to offend anyone, just to show how things can be taken out of context.

    This post was edited for content by Musicman247 on May 8, 2007 at 3:54pm
    Last edited by Musicman247; 05/08/2007 at 03:54 PM.
  6. #386  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Wow. The Bible says there is no God.

    Psalm 53:1

    The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.
    Vindication at last...
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  7.    #387  
    Not vindication, just showing how a person can take a statement out of context.
  8. #388  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Wow. The Bible says there is no God.

    Psalm 53:1

    The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.
    What is with the hidden white lettered messages? Are all of us that "do no good" not supposed to see this?
  9.    #389  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    What is with the hidden white lettered messages? Are all of us that "do no good" not supposed to see this?
    I wanted to provide the scripture for those who did not have access to a Bible without giving away the "punchline".
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    #390  
    ^ It's just their Romper Room gamesmanship, just like their clean-up on aisle 5
  11. backbeat's Avatar
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    #391  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Wow. The Bible says there is no God.

    Psalm 53:1

    The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.
    Since the bible isn't the final authority, it's opinion is just one among thousands and should be considered accordingly. All self-appointed gods take the same stance and are a dime-a-dozen.
  12. #392  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Not vindication, just showing how a person can take a statement out of context.
    Just a mirthful remark aimed at softening the sting from your hidden insult.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  13. #393  
    In other words, logic and science was sent to test the faith of the believers, and letting them sway you is a sure sign of damnation.

    Surur
  14.    #394  
    No, I did not mean that as a comment towards anyone on this board. All of you have proven beyond a doubt that you are all educated, reasonable people who have a high understanding of the world around you. I am sorry if my statement was misconstrued as an attack of some kind. I assure you it was not.

    This link http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html was posted earlier, and I was commenting on how statements could be taken from the Bible and used out of context. I am sorry that I did not post a reference for my post. I will clarify that by editing my original post.

    I do not think poorly of any of you. I respect all of you and your beliefs, and I am not trying to put down any of your beliefs.

    I am truly sorry that I have offended you.
  15. #395  
    Noted, no offense taken.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  16. #396  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    In reference to this link that was posted: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html

    ...

    This post is not meant to offend anyone, just to show how things can be taken out of context.
    How is this taken out of context, and how can both quotes from the Bible be literally true?

    Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

    John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  17. #397  
    Clulup....we have already gone over this very example last year. Could you possibly image a lot going during this event? Roman soldiers possibly trying to maintaining control of the crowd, people consoling others, etc... Isn't very plausible that each witness of the event is 100% correct? That each one caught a bit of what Jesus said just before he died. Wouldn't this be a valid reason why we have 2 or 3 witnessed to the same event?

    ..........okay we have had this bible contradiction discussion so many times in the past that I am not very interested in doing all over again.
  18. #398  
    Quote Originally Posted by HobbesIsReal View Post
    Isn't very plausible that each witness of the event is 100% correct? That each one caught a bit of what Jesus said just before he died.
    Of course it is possible or even likely that the witnesses didn't get everything right. What isn't possible is that both accounts are correct simultaneously. I am not saying the bible is wrong, but it certrainly isn't literally true - it doesn't even try to be, otherwise it wouldn't be full of partly conflicting versions of the same stories in many places.

    I was just interested in how Musicman will explain the discrepancies.
    “Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” (Philip K. ****)
  19. backbeat's Avatar
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    #399  
    The real difference between the arguments is that the conflicts of accounts has to be explained away via a faith-based statement of 'maybe this ... maybe that ...' when this is supposed to be the infallible word of god. Without faith-based supposition, what explanation can they offer?

    What was the word of god, again, before man put this collection of stories together?
  20. #400  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    The real difference between the arguments is that the conflicts of accounts has to be explained away via a faith-based statement of 'maybe this ... maybe that ...' when this is supposed to be the infallible word of god. Without faith-based supposition, what explanation can they offer?

    What was the word of god, again, before man put this collection of stories together?
    In fairness, not all those, not even most, who consider themselves to be "of Faith" and who believe in God pretend that Scripture can be taken literally, that the collection of stories all carry a message, or that the message is consistent from story to story. That is one reason why Sunday morning is spent listening to those with license to interpret for others.

    I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church. We were taught not to worry about the literal words in Scripture, that we could rely upon the Church to make it all clear to us. Of course, we had to ignore the fact that the interpretation was somewhat self-serving. There are only a small number of churches that teach that the individual is her own authority and may interpret for herself.

    That said, the Scriptures are such a fundamental part of Western culture that they cannot be ignored. For better or worse, sharing them binds us together. Sort of like Aesop, Homer, Virgil, Caesar, Mother Goose, The Brothers Grimm, Shakespeare, Dickens, and Disney.

    We are a story telling species. It is our stories that define us and distinguish us from others. It is with our stories that we identify ourselves and our place in the universe. It is with our stories that we teach, not to say, acculturate and discipline, our children.
    Last edited by whmurray; 05/10/2007 at 10:00 AM.

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