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  1. #321  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Gamble View Post
    Theology is a messy business.
    The "Mother of all Science."
  2. backbeat's Avatar
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    #322  
    Quote Originally Posted by moderateinny View Post
    Well I'm not trying to poke fun necessarily - my post was to point out that there are many contradictions and paradoxes in religion.
    Oh, come on ... It's fun, it provokes critical thought, it's fat-free, and it doesn't harm the environment.
  3. #323  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    thinking about timelessness within a context bound by time can be daunting. The duration of a day is equivalent to the duration of one complete rotation on the axis
    Interesting but vague, will you please elaborate.

    It seems that the distinction between male and female is a construct reserved for creation. However, a review of the characgteristics ascirbed to Holy Spirit tend towards what we (used to) consider feminine
    I failed to grasp your point; beyond creation (Genesis), distinctions between man-woman are present throughout the biblical texts. I don't know if I am interpreting your line of thinking correctly.

    What characteristics of the holy spirit?

    Presently within another dimension seems to fit the description. However, I have not come across a compelling statement in the text. Incidentally, the discovery of an "earth-like" planet 20 light years away already has some speculating that such is the "new earth" descirbed in the Revelation.
    The way I have always interpreted the Bible, Heaven is not meant to represent a physical place but rather a spiritual state of closeness to the divine.

    Free will comes at a high priceI'm still working on the concept of ominscience. My current rationalization is that one who knows all possibilities by definition knows all things (hence the, albeit crude, software programmer illustration). In terms of relativity, though, that party 'a' knows what is going to occur, does not mean that party 'b' is not exercsing free will.
    Omniscient means all-knowing, not all-guessing. The concept applies to factual knowledge not knowledge of likely outcomes.

    If I flip a coin 100 times and get all heads, statistics suggest the probability of the next flip being tails is high. However each flip by itself is an independent event with two equally likely outcomes (free will). If I say the next flip will be tail and it happens, this does not make me omniscient, just lucky.

    On the other hand, if I provide a complete 100% accurate prediction of how each and every roll will turn (omniscience), then the outcome of each roll is already predetermined and hence there is no room for chance on the toss (free will).

    So god knowing what choices we will make before we make them, leaves us with no choice on the matter; the choices may be there, but the outcome is already known to god and therefore immutable.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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  4. #324  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjvitek View Post
    No. Genes are lost, genes are gained, genes change functionality.

    Chris
    Accepted. I thought (from reading the Blind Watchmaker a while ago) that the genetic expression resulted from instruction within the DNA. If that be the case, it would seem that the gene could re-emerge.
  5. #325  
    What if God was only very very powerful, but not all knowing or all powerful (kind of like the Greek gods) Would he still be God?

    Surur
  6. #326  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    What if God was only very very powerful, but not all knowing or all powerful (kind of like the Greek gods) Would he still be God?

    Surur
    Reviving another ancient mythological religion?
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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  7. #327  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    If I flip a coin 100 times and get all heads, statistics suggest the probability of the next flip being tails is high. However each flip by itself is an independent event with two equally likely outcomes (free will). If I say the next flip will be tail and it happens, this does not make me omniscient, just lucky.
    Actually, assuming you have a non-biased coin, statistics says the odds of the next flip being heads or tails is 50/50. As you say, each flip is by itself an independant event, not predicated on the previous flips. So the fact that it is heads for 100 flips has no bearing on the next flip. Again, assuming an even coin.

    Chris
  8. #328  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    Accepted. I thought (from reading the Blind Watchmaker a while ago) that the genetic expression resulted from instruction within the DNA. If that be the case, it would seem that the gene could re-emerge.
    Traits may re-evolve, or similar traits may evolve independantly of each other, but the idea that ALL traits are present in the genome and only some are expressed is wrong.

    Chris
  9. #329  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Reviving another ancient mythological religion?
    In for a penny, in for a pound...

    It would solve a whole lot of paradoxes, wont it.

    Surur
  10. #330  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Interesting but vague, will you please elaborate.
    The text does not define a day's duration in terms of hours, but as the passing of an evening and a morning. That results from a complete revolution of the earth
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    I failed to grasp your point; beyond creation (Genesis), distinctions between man-woman are present throughout the biblical texts. I don't know if I am interpreting your line of thinking correctly.
    The question asked about the gender and anatomy of "god"
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    What characteristics of the holy spirit?
    brooding, comforter, convicts of sin, shows things to come, distribution of gifts
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    The way I have always interpreted the Bible, Heaven is not meant to represent a physical place but rather a spiritual state of closeness to the divine.
    TI'm not disputing that view. In my reading, the text seems to alude to some discernible locale
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Omniscient means all-knowing, not all-guessing. The concept applies to factual knowledge not knowledge of likely outcomes.
    similar to what was stated about the term "species" I find that "omniscience" is a term man uses in an effort to summarize the capabilities the biblical text presents as belonging to God (e.g. declares the end from the beginning, knows what we have need of before we ask). I am not certain that the text has an inherent definition.
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post

    If I flip a coin 100 times and get all heads, statistics suggest the probability of the next flip being tails is high. However each flip by itself is an independent event with two equally likely outcomes (free will). If I say the next flip will be tail and it happens, this does not make me omniscient, just lucky.

    On the other hand, if I provide a complete 100% accurate prediction of how each and every roll will turn (omniscience), then the outcome of each roll is already predetermined and hence there is no room for chance on the toss (free will).
    It is only in execution of the flips that you know whether the prediction was accurate. The outcome of each remains subject to the circumstances then present
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post

    So god knowing what choices we will make before we make them, leaves us with no choice on the matter; the choices may be there, but the outcome is already known to god and therefore immutable.
    Or, our choice confirms the accuracy of God's prediction.
  11. #331  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    ..., our choice confirms the accuracy of God's prediction.
    With God being infallible that confirmation is redundant.

    Surur
  12. backbeat's Avatar
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    #332  
    There is a fundamental question which has not been asked here of the christian-religious side. What is god's explanation for why man was created?
  13. #333  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    There is a fundamental question which has not been asked here of the christian-religious side. What is god's explanation for why man was created?
    The little nuns taught me that God created me to know him, to love him (and to be happy with him in heaven). Makes some sense. If one creates the universe, an audience to appreciate it would be nice. (Never did understand why I had to go through grammar school and high school to get to heaven. On the other hand, I have escaped poverty, war, and crippling disease.)
  14. #334  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjvitek View Post
    Actually, assuming you have a non-biased coin, statistics says the odds of the next flip being heads or tails is 50/50. As you say, each flip is by itself an independant event, not predicated on the previous flips. So the fact that it is heads for 100 flips has no bearing on the next flip. Again, assuming an even coin.

    Chris
    Bad anology on my part, stand corrected...thanks.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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  15. #335  
    Quote Originally Posted by whmurray View Post
    The little nuns taught me that God created me to know him, to love him (and to be happy with him in heaven).
    Bit needy, isn't he.

    On second reading, that sounds a lot like what those roman catholic priests would say to the little boys....

    Surur
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    #336  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Bit needy, isn't he.

    Surur
    And self-absorbed. Maybe he could've just gotten a puppy instead?
  17. #337  
    Quote Originally Posted by shopharim View Post
    The text does not define a day's duration in terms of hours, but as the passing of an evening and a morning. That results from a complete revolution of the earth
    Fair enough.

    The question asked about the gender and anatomy of "god"
    I thought you implied in your prior answer that gender was only referenced in the creation.

    As I understand the gender of god is not defined in the Bible, however an argument as previously presented indicating that man (as opposed to woman) was created in god's image therefore god is likely to be male is compeling.


    similar to what was stated about the term "species" I find that "omniscience" is a term man uses in an effort to summarize the capabilities the biblical text presents as belonging to God (e.g. declares the end from the beginning, knows what we have need of before we ask). I am not certain that the text has an inherent definition.It is only in execution of the flips that you know whether the prediction was accurate. The outcome of each remains subject to the circumstances then presentOr, our choice confirms the accuracy of God's prediction.
    Term omniscient is of course a word invented by man (as all other words are) used by organized religion to describe god's all-knowing nature as stated on 1 John 3:20:

    "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things" (American King James Version)

    Still the phylosophical discord is that God's omniscience is at odds with man's free will.
    Have a great one...Doc D.

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  18. backbeat's Avatar
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    #338  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    As I understand the gender of god is not defined in the Bible, however an argument as previously presented indicating that man (as opposed to woman) was created in god's image therefore god is likely to be male is compeling.
    Wasn't the Torah written by a Jew who never got eyeball-to-eyeball with the voice that lead him for decades? Maybe god just 'sounded' male to him? Of course, a similar case could be made for Joseph Smith, I suppose.

    If god doesn't have sexual organs, where did he come up with that idea for man who was created in his image/likeness? And if he does, why?
  19. Dim-Ize's Avatar
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    #339  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    There is a fundamental question which has not been asked here of the christian-religious side. What is god's explanation for why man was created?
    Excellent question, Backbeat! I'm no scholar (I wish I was) - but, I will share some scriptures with you.

    Solomon, the wisest man to ever live, writes in Ecclesiastes 12:13 -

    "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man's all." (NKJV)

    For reference, here is another translation:

    "This is the end of the matter; all hath been heard: fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man." (ASV)

    To fear God is one of the major themes of Ecclesiastes (and of wisdom literature in the OT). To fear God is to respond to Him in awe, reverence, and wonder, to serve Him in purity of action, and to shun evil and any worship of anything else in His universe.

    Keep His commandments: The commandments of the Law are in view here. Jesus summed them (the OT Law) up as to, "love the LORD your God" and "your neighbor as yourself." (Matt 22:34-40).

    Man's all: We are whole or complete only when we fear God and obey His commandments. If we follow what this book has said, we will have a relationship with God and find life in Him. Otherwise, we will be separated from Him for all of eternity.

    Ecc: 12:14 reads - "For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil."

    Judgment: This same teaching is echoed by the apostle Paul in 2 Cor. 5:10. Death is not the end. All of life will be reviewed by our righteous LORD (see at 3:17). Life must be lived through faith with the values of the eternal God in view in order to receive eternal life.

    So, "why was man created"? I think that is a very wonderful question. We were created by Him and for Him. We were created to serve God and obey God, and in doing so - He has a plan for us. A beautiful plan. He loves everyone of us and He desires that none should perish. Yet, when we reject His message and reject His Son - we reject Him.
  20. Dim-Ize's Avatar
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    #340  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    Wasn't the Torah written by a Jew who never got eyeball-to-eyeball with the voice that lead him for decades? Maybe god just 'sounded' male to him? Of course, a similar case could be made for Joseph Smith, I suppose.

    If god doesn't have sexual organs, where did he come up with that idea for man who was created in his image/likeness? And if he does, why?
    God is a spiritual being. When we read that we are made in His image - it is in the sense that we have an eternal spirit, just like Him. That we have feelings and emotions, just like Him. God doesn't have a body like man has. He is a spiritual being. Matthew 22:29 - But Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Verse 30 - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.

    This is an answer to a question of Jesus - as to how we can marry after we die. The only reason I reference this passage - is becuase - God is a spiritual, eternal being. He had no origin and He has no end. Man, while made in his image spirtually, was given an earthly body. This is only temporary - because you already posses an immortal soul. It will last for eternity - the final destination is one of two places.

    The stages are:
    Earth - good and evil co-exist
    Hades - either in paradise or torment - good and evil are separated by a great gulf which they cannot cross
    Heaven / Hell - permanent and complete separation of good and evil

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