Page 10 of 34 FirstFirst ... 5678910111213141520 ... LastLast
Results 181 to 200 of 675
  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    How can we be held accountable by our nature, if our nature comes from animals? Do other creatures know right from wrong? If so, explain. If not, then how did we come up with right and wrong?
    We come from animals...heck, we ARE animals. But we are capable of thought processes that other animals are not.

    By "right and wrong" - do you mean societal guidelines, or do you mean moral issues?

    Either way, no, IMO the vast majority of species on this planet do not know right from wrong. For some some animals that may be capable of higher, more abstract thought or self awareness (chimps, dolphins, etc) I am not sure. They may be capable, or they may not.

    As for how did we come up with right and wrong - again, it think the codification of "right and wrong" came about as a combination of a means to better regulate and preserve society/culture, as well as a realization about our ability to empathize with others, and an ability to understand how our action effect others.

    What about my statements about truth? Is there a common truth? And if so, who decides it, and where does it come from? Is there an absolute truth? Is there an absolute right and wrong?
    I am not sure what you mean by "truth". Do you mean "facts"? As for your question if there is an absolute right and wrong, I think yes there is. And as I said, it derives from our ability to understand how our actions effect others, our ability to empathize with people. I know if I hit someone how they would respond, because I know what it would be like to get hit myself. This leads to an idea that "hitting is wrong".

    Now, as I said, society and culture can be powerful forces in some cases overwhelming some of these "rights and wrongs." Some society or cultures may have created traditions at various times that may go against some of the idea of an inherent morality.


    Chris
  2.    #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Isnt that an anti-democratic argument? Why do we need a high ruler to tell us what is right or wrong. Cant we as a society decide for ourselves?

    Surur
    You are avoiding the question I posed. I will re-phrase it.

    Are humans the only "animals" that are self-aware, or aware of our actions? If so, how did we become so? If not, what other animal is?
  3.    #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjvitek View Post
    We come from animals...heck, we ARE animals. But we are capable of thought processes that other animals are not.

    By "right and wrong" - do you mean societal guidelines, or do you mean moral issues?

    Either way, no, IMO the vast majority of species on this planet do not know right from wrong. For some some animals that may be capable of higher, more abstract thought or self awareness (chimps, dolphins, etc) I am not sure. They may be capable, or they may not.

    As for how did we come up with right and wrong - again, it think the codification of "right and wrong" came about as a combination of a means to better regulate and preserve society/culture, as well as a realization about our ability to empathize with others, and an ability to understand how our action effect others.



    I am not sure what you mean by "truth". Do you mean "facts"? As for your question if there is an absolute right and wrong, I think yes there is. And as I said, it derives from our ability to understand how our actions effect others, our ability to empathize with people. I know if I hit someone how they would respond, because I know what it would be like to get hit myself. This leads to an idea that "hitting is wrong".

    Now, as I said, society and culture can be powerful forces in some cases overwhelming some of these "rights and wrongs." Some society or cultures may have created traditions at various times that may go against some of the idea of an inherent morality.


    Chris
    Why do no other animals have the capacity to empathize? If we all come from a common ancestor, shouldn't other animals have similar ideas of right and wrong? How can man be so highly evolved yet no other animal, in the millions of years of evolution is even close to our intellect and comprehension?
  4. backbeat's Avatar
    Posts
    55 Posts
    Global Posts
    138 Global Posts
    #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    No offense has been taken thus far. I have not been called any names, none of my arguements have been treated as ludicrus (yet). I feel fine in this conversation.

    I believe I have answered the question about incest, but there seems to be a question about what God inteded. Perhaps God intended for Adam and Eve to be father and mother of all humanity (since Eve means life, and was named that because she was "mother of all living" Gen 3:20), but their children had other thoughts.
    OK. I follow the logic about Eve and the Hebrew names/meanings attributed to her.

    What puzzles me is your statement about their children. Point being, what choice did Adam & Eve's children have in locating partners outside their familiy line since none existed? In other words, if Eve had not committed original sin (or however you'd like to refer to it), brother-sister/mother-son/father-daughter procreation was part of God's original plan for mankind?

    How could free will have changed Adam & Eve's children's procreation options?

    God did not set down His laws until after the Exodus from Egypt. We find those laws in the book of Leviticus 18:6-18. Until then he trusted man to make his own decisions (free will) since they had the knowledge between good and evil.
    Separately, you've stated that Adam & Eve were 'perfect' creations. Does this imply perfection of body-mind-spirit or only outward-physical perfection?
  5.    #185  
    Anybody want to start a biogenesis debate? Anybody have any theories on how life began in the first place?
  6.    #186  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    OK. I follow the logic about Eve and the Hebrew names/meanings attributed to her.

    What puzzles me is your statement about their children. Point being, what choice did Adam & Eve's children have in locating partners outside their familiy line since none existed? In other words, if Eve had not committed original sin (or however you'd like to refer to it), brother-sister/mother-son/father-daughter procreation was part of God's original plan for mankind?

    How could free will have changed Adam & Eve's children's procreation options?
    In the Bible God told Adam and Eve to multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. Is it possible that God did not intend their children to procreate? If we look at the garden of Eden, there was no death. Adam and Eve were to live forever in the Garden with their children. God warned them that death was the punishment for eating the forbidden fruit. So, if Adam and Eve were intended to live forever, they could continually produce offspring, and since there was no sin in the world, their offspring would not desire sexual relations with each other.

    Separately, you've stated that Adam & Eve were 'perfect' creations. Does this imply perfection of body-mind-spirit or only outward-physical perfection?
    In Genesis it states that God looked at His creation and said it was good. in those days Adam and God had perfect communion with each other, so I would venture to say that Adam and Eve were perfect in every sense of the word. Mind, body, spirit.
  7. backbeat's Avatar
    Posts
    55 Posts
    Global Posts
    138 Global Posts
    #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    In the Bible God told Adam and Eve to multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. Is it possible that God did not intend their children to procreate? If we look at the garden of Eden, there was no death. Adam and Eve were to live forever in the Garden with their children. God warned them that death was the punishment for eating the forbidden fruit. So, if Adam and Eve were intended to live forever, they could continually produce offspring, and since there was no sin in the world, their offspring would not desire sexual relations with each other.
    That's an interesting paradigm shift, and a logical one if there are no contradictory biblical accounts.

    Adam & Eve's children disallowed from procreation? Is there any biblical indication this was the intent? It would be interesting to see how such a plan could be carried out, given that Mom & Pop already had.

    Eve was to bear children forever by this original plan? If the devil hadn't gotten to her first, child-bearing forever would have pissed her off at some point.

    And by your account, all the world's population is the direct result of incest. With all the biblical 'begots', I'm surprised the original incestuous pair isn't recorded for posterity. Or is it?

    Regarding the Garden of Eden, if it was created as a perfect heaven-on-Earth, what was God's intent by including a Tree of Life/Knowledge with forbidden fruit? If man was to subdue the Earth, why would there be one tree which was exempt from man's use? Why would it exist, in practical terms, not allowing man to fulfill God's direct instruction?

    In Genesis it states that God looked at His creation and said it was good. in those days Adam and God had perfect communion with each other, so I would venture to say that Adam and Eve were perfect in every sense of the word. Mind, body, spirit.
    If God's creation was perfect in body-mind-spirit ... 'perfect' in absolute terms ... No potential for sin could exist within man.
  8. #188  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Why do no other animals have the capacity to empathize? If we all come from a common ancestor, shouldn't other animals have similar ideas of right and wrong? How can man be so highly evolved yet no other animal, in the millions of years of evolution is even close to our intellect and comprehension?
    How can we empathize? You might as well ask how our brain works. I don't think anyone really knows how our collection of neurons allows for what seems to be a higher level of consciousness and awareness (although I believe there is some evidence that some animals have a degree of self awareness and can empathize...but I might be mistaken).

    In addition, just because a trait is present doesn't mean that is has evolved from the same trait in pre-existing species. Very early ancestors to birds didn't have wings - wings EVOLVED. It is entirely possible that the ability to empathize and our self awareness evolved as well. Or it could be a by product of the evolution of our brains.


    Chris
  9. #189  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Anybody want to start a biogenesis debate? Anybody have any theories on how life began in the first place?

    You mean a hypothesis?

    Chris
  10. #190  
    Quote Originally Posted by captaindan View Post
    I think the bible is an amazing book. What other book can you give that was written by what 15 different people, 4 different languages, over a 200 year span and the book has no contradictions.
    War & Piece has contradictions all through out it. That was written by one person.
    Sorry I am not that great of a speller
    BWAHYAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
  11.    #191  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    That's an interesting paradigm shift, and a logical one if there are no contradictory biblical accounts.

    Adam & Eve's children disallowed from procreation? Is there any biblical indication this was the intent? It would be interesting to see how such a plan could be carried out, given that Mom & Pop already had.

    Eve was to bear children forever by this original plan? If the devil hadn't gotten to her first, child-bearing forever would have pissed her off at some point.

    And by your account, all the world's population is the direct result of incest. With all the biblical 'begots', I'm surprised the original incestuous pair isn't recorded for posterity. Or is it?

    Regarding the Garden of Eden, if it was created as a perfect heaven-on-Earth, what was God's intent by including a Tree of Life/Knowledge with forbidden fruit? If man was to subdue the Earth, why would there be one tree which was exempt from man's use? Why would it exist, in practical terms, not allowing man to fulfill God's direct instruction?



    If God's creation was perfect in body-mind-spirit ... 'perfect' in absolute terms ... No potential for sin could exist within man.
    Being perfect meant that they were also given freedom. Freedom to choose what God wanted, or freedom to rebel. The tree was placed in the garden so that mankind would have free will. God wants people to love Him because they want to love Him, not because they have no choice.
  12.    #192  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjvitek View Post
    You mean a hypothesis?

    Chris
    Touche.
  13. backbeat's Avatar
    Posts
    55 Posts
    Global Posts
    138 Global Posts
    #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    The tree was placed in the garden so that mankind would have free will.
    God's plan was for man to sin/fail? Unless man indulged in the Forbidden Fruit, man did not have free will.

    If it was God's plan for Adam & Eve (and their direct offspring) to live forever, why would God provide a means for man to fail at a time when man did not have free will?

    This rationale is starting to get a little circular to me.

    Earlier, you stated:
    Until then [God's written Law] he trusted man to make his own decisions (free will) since they had the knowledge between good and evil.
    So, In the Beginning ... we have perfection ... Adam & Eve's Divine Adventure [no free will] ...

    Then, after Adam/Eve indulged in forbidden fruit, God trusted man to make his own (new free will) decisions (which seems strange because God's perfect creation had just fallen).
  14. #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Being perfect meant that they were also given freedom. Freedom to choose what God wanted, or freedom to rebel. The tree was placed in the garden so that mankind would have free will. God wants people to love Him because they want to love Him, not because they have no choice.
    Free will?, how can Adam/Eve had free will, didn't God knew what they were going to do with the tree?

    Remember, God is omniscient, I don't say it, the Bible does - 1 John 3:20
    Have a great one...Doc D.

    Phillips VELO > Palm III > Palm V > Palm 505m > Treo 180 > Treo 300 > Samsung i500 > Treo 700p > HTC 6800 > Treo 800w > Treo Pro > Palm Pre > HTC Evo
  15. Dim-Ize's Avatar
    Posts
    242 Posts
    Global Posts
    710 Global Posts
    #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    Are you a young earth creationist also? If not, here's and interesting test for you. Explain to Musicman247 why the Earth is older than 10 000 years.

    Surur

    Surur,

    I just believe in creation by intelligent design (planning / purpose / wisdom / thoughtfulness).

    I don't consider myself a young earth or old earth creationist. Creation is what I believe in.

    Adam wasn't created as a baby boy either. He was created as a mature man. How old? I don't know. I just know that on day one of Adam's life - he didn't appear to be a one day old baby.

    On day one of Adam's life, he had lived for his first day - but, he had a body and mind of a man.

    I don't know how old the earth appeared to be on the day that God created it.
  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dim-Ize View Post
    I don't know how old the earth appeared to be on the day that God created it.
    So you believe the earth may have been created to look older than it is. As I posted earlier in the thread, there is no way to disprove that statement when one invokes an omnipotent being.

    Surur
  17.    #197  
    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    God's plan was for man to sin/fail? Unless man indulged in the Forbidden Fruit, man did not have free will.

    If it was God's plan for Adam & Eve (and their direct offspring) to live forever, why would God provide a means for man to fail at a time when man did not have free will?

    This rationale is starting to get a little circular to me.

    Earlier, you stated:

    So, In the Beginning ... we have perfection ... Adam & Eve's Divine Adventure [no free will] ...

    Then, after Adam/Eve indulged in forbidden fruit, God trusted man to make his own (new free will) decisions (which seems strange because God's perfect creation had just fallen).

    Man did have free will. God gave them a choice: Eat the fruit, or don't. That was the only thing that was wrong back then.

    Everyone has the capacity to murder. If I do not murder, then do I not have free will?
  18.    #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by TreoNewt View Post
    Free will?, how can Adam/Eve had free will, didn't God knew what they were going to do with the tree?

    Remember, God is omniscient, I don't say it, the Bible does - 1 John 3:20
    True, God is omniscient. He is also omnipresent, and omnipotent.

    As I stated early, God does not want mindless robots worshipping Him. Even though He knew Adam and Eve would sin, He wanted them to have free will.
  19. Dim-Ize's Avatar
    Posts
    242 Posts
    Global Posts
    710 Global Posts
    #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by surur View Post
    So you believe the earth may have been created to look older than it is. As I posted earlier in the thread, there is no way to disprove that statement when one invokes an omnipotent being.

    Surur
    Since you are asking me - I would word your interpretation of my comments differently - to read:

    "So, you believe the earth was created and looks older than it is."

    Simply meaning - IMHO - I don't think the earth was created to look older than it is.

    I think earth was created for man to inhabit and does appear to be older than it is - when carbon dating is used to calculate its age.
  20. backbeat's Avatar
    Posts
    55 Posts
    Global Posts
    138 Global Posts
    #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by Musicman247 View Post
    Man did have free will. God gave them a choice: Eat the fruit, or don't. That was the only thing that was wrong back then.
    God gave them a directive, not a choice. Since you're good at quoting your good book, maybe you should here as well.

    Are you getting dizzy from going in circles yet?

Posting Permissions